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So I checked Urban Dictionary and it was only at explanation #9 that we got a basic definition: There's another alternative here: So here's the interesting thing. Most of you are fully aware how Vanilla WoW compares to retail in the sense that over an extended period of time, Blizzard have actively reduced the amount of effort required by players to advance in levels, gain reputation and rewards, or get access to game time reducers like mounts. A common mistake is that people have called this 'dumbing down the game'. It is no such thing. As an example, I can offer my experiences in playing the game in Vanilla or TBC where my role as healer involved pretty much standing in one spot and spamming appropriate spells, compared to WotLK, where I had to do complex tasks like moving FFS, or taking part in timed actions that reduced the chances of party wipes. All in all, instance and raid skills were far more complicated = skillful, than what I experienced in Vanilla. But I digress. We are playing vanilla, and will be for quite some time. So the purpose of this thread is to highlight that critical element to Vanilla WoW that separates it from retail on a permanent basis. This is of course the fact that vanilla is the biggest grindfest (and therefore timesink) in pretty much any playable game (bar Everquest), and if you are going to be moderately successful you are going to need to be pretty good at it. Unlike the second urban definition, grinding in WoW will not make you a better player. Your skill in vanilla is not determined by how much grinding you have done. You will not become a stronger nor better player by outgrinding others. Of course, constant raiding and PvPing will make you a better player from experience, but not necessarily a skillful one. So let's examine this grinding malarkey and break it down according to criteria: Level Grinding The classic chicken and egg question of WoW, is it quicker to level up by grinding on mobs or is it quicker to level up by questing? The answer of course is both. Grinding on appropriate level mobs in my experience is faster than questing. It also the advantage in that the loot gained from your grinding is sellable/tradeable and thus removes the burden of cash-flow problems. Your positive bank balance can then be used to invest in a few blue items every 10 levels to further increase your grind speed ratio. However, the truth of the matter is that grinding alone while faster, is imbalanced and frankly, incredibly mind-numbingly dull. So my actual recommendation is that you should always look for a life-balance of level advancement in questing (chain quests give good rewards + getting your reputation to exalted saves a ton of money on mounts), combined with certain instances (mostly for Boss drops, quest hand-ins and a quick level up for little work - Deadmines being a classic example), and finally selective grinding spots where you can jump 5 or so levels in a short space of time. To make full use of the level grinding you should tailor it for your own needs. For example, Raven Hill Cemetery/Duskwood is a favourite of mine, it has some of the best quest chains in the game, has some brilliant elites that kick ass if you get on the wrong side of them, and gives a great grinding area for secondary professions like fishing and first aid. Other 'proper' professions like tailoring will concentrate on humanoids for cloth drops, beasts for skinning as a leatherworker (Yetis in Hillsbrad etc) or even just concentrating on grinding mobs where there are excellent resources (Thousand Needles for ores etc). The key thing here in my opinion is balance and working smart. Grinding mobs for XP is all very well, but if you have a sidebar on leveling professions or sandwiching it between a couple of instances or completing some suitable geographical quests then the grinding seems part of an ongoing sequence. The other element to take into account is that some classes do not grind particularly well in vanilla, like say Paladins and to a lesser extent, warriors. Just as importantly, some mobs are not particularly friendly to grinding if your class has no decent spell interrupt for example. Just remember, that from L58-60 you are going to have to grind mobs the level up anyway... Oh, and we forgot about bags. There's no point in spending all your time level grinding with repeated trips to the AH, bank or vendor because your pathetic bag space keeps getting full. You can never have enough big bags so get to know a tailor or upgrade as a priority whenever you have the spare funds. Er, we also forgot about different types of level grinding so for example, single target grinding as outlined above, then AOE grinding using spells which tends to be class/mob specific (this usually requires skills) and then finally Power AOE grinding where you persuade some, preferably higher level player than you, to heal you as you go AOE mad, reducing the fine line between multiple mob deaths or getting killed as you were too greedy/stupid/unskilled. Finally, I completely forgot about having a relevant add-on like Titan Panel as some of the units available Handy link to add-ons here keep track of XP/per hour, ~time until next level, gold/per hour and lots of relevant stuff as to how good or bad the area/mobs you are grinding on. Farming is grinding with one less letter Scarily, the very first definition of farming in Urban Dictionary is not 'working on the land to produce foodstuffs for your fellow human beings' but rather: In video games, it's when you collect a bunch of a certain item in order to power yourself up. Orb farming in Devil May Cry 3. Soul farming in Castlevania: Aria/Dawn of Sorrow. Seriously, I fear for the human race, but as usual I digress..... There is a difference between farming and grinding, but it's a very small one. Grinding is a useful definition on what makes Vanilla WoW different from retail WoW, apart of course from the social, community, bonding, getting to know people, cooperative and just plain this is what makes people, people differences of course. Whereas farming tends to focus on one aspect of the game where a repeat action gives a definitive result. This result is usually but not always an improvement to the character performing the farming. Some classic examples of this would be: Gold farming There are many, many guides on how to farm gold in Vanilla most of which are trash. If there was an easy way to circumvent the grind that is Vanilla WoW we'd all be doing it. In essence, gold farming is all about finding the area/mobs/instances/raids that are level appropriate for your toon(s) that provide a maximum amount of gold/per hour. As there are many ways to generate gold (cash drops/equipment drops/materials for professions/rare drops) there are a very large number of ways of doing this. Best to break this down into a manageable process is to determine why people need gold in the first place. For starters, you need gold to level up your toons. Typically this involves three separate areas. The first is to purchase new character skills for your class from the trainer. This starts to get very expensive at around L30 where the amount of cash you make from questing doesn't cover the full costs. People who are power leveling will typically ignore non-essential skills and just purchase the ones that maximise DPS output or damage mitigation. This is why my personal choice is to incorporate level grinding with questing as the extra income provided gives you a better balance. The second reason is leveling up your professions. As already discussed, questing and level grinding in areas that will also allow access to materials for professions saves time and gold. However, there is a preferred option to this for some people with power leveling. When this server(s) start, the players who advance to L60 first will have an enormous advantage over everyone else. By ignoring the siren call to a balanced approach to leveling they get to 60 and just concentrate on farming the most appropriate cash/vendor junk mobs. This makes them the richest players on Crestfall and allows them the facility to purchase any item on the AH they require. As the AH is comparatively small and most people are leveling up in relation to each other, the items they need to advance there professions are very cheap, and what they really save on is the time they would have 'wasted' on this grind in the first place. The third reason is acquisition of a mount. For some cheating classes like Warlocks, this is not a problem. For other classes like hunters and druids it's not so critical thanks to their own in-class speed boosts. But for everyone else, access to a mount is the single most important event that reduces the grind in WoW. Clearly, if you are leveling up by questing then a 60% increase in speed means getting from one quest hub to another, handing in quests and all-round general moving about in Vanilla is a massive time-saver. For power-levelers this is not that relevant as they tend to grind on appropriate mobs that are easy to get to, or just not bother going to an inn as rested XP just isn't that relevant. So as you can see from the above, gold farming as an aid to leveling your toon or professions doesn't really make a lot of sense until you are at a reasonably high level (50+) where the gold you generate allows you to take advantage of a poorly developed AH or purchase that mount. Depending on how you level, you can either take an holistic approach where you level everything in tandem (level/professions/secondary skills/reputation) which will be slow, or just select an item from the menu and stick with that. So in reality, gold farming only becomes relevant at end levels. Here, the people who power-leveled to 60 at the start need to be in a similar power-leveling guild or they won't have access to the raids and instances they need to give the best cash returns. Similarly, the baby economy in the AH won't be interested in a large amount of the products they can harvest, either because they are not level-appropriate or because they simply can't afford them. So for the first few weeks a small circle of elites will be trading and selling amongst themselves. However, as the number of players blossom and level-up, the economy gets stronger and the raiding and farming gets more lucrative. At a later stage a glorious tipping point occurs. The raiding guilds give up farming on mobs/instances/items and start farming raids instead. While this is mostly down to acquiring boss drops to better equip their members it's also about generating cash. This cash is used to purchase the unbelievable amount of consumables raiding guilds need. These consumables are usually provided by players like me who level up holistically and rely on these raiding guilds to provide me with an income. This is a virtuous cycle that is finely balanced. The balance can be upset by things such as multiboxing, bad scripting like multiple item nodes, gold farming for cash and numerous other exploits. For this, we as a community need to support the staff of Crestfall to keep these instances down to a minimum. So to recap on gold farming: Gold farming involves a grinding routine in an area where the net result is cash That it's probably not effective to do this as a leveling enhancement unless you want the proceeds to pay for your professions/mount That those who level to 60 first will farm to retrospectively enhance the areas they neglected to level up on their journey as well as getting raiding materials for consumables That when these individuals start to raid effectively, the gold farming is usually done by the second the third tiers of players who reach level 60 That the community needs to work with the administrators to make gold farming as equitable as possible. Grinding for specific stuff Which is really farming part II. Typically divided into two areas. Grinding on items that you need (typically this is for professions) or grinding for items to sell (AKA gold farming). So no point in adding to what has already been said other than the benefits for farming in level appropriate areas. One of the tricks of the trade is to level up two gathering professions (skinning/mining/herbalism) as this maximises your gold return as you level up to 60. With the (presumably) excess cash generated you can then delete one profession at 60 and take the appropriate partner skill like leatherworking/blacksmithing/engineering/alchemy) and just buy the stuff you need. But to develop the 'specific stuff' part of this farming module I'll give you a specific example. It's a little known factoid (the original meaning) that I am the world's greatest expert on Tiny Crimson Whelpling. This si because I've farmed them on pretty much every toon I have ever played past L24. Initially, this was as I really like the idea of vanity pets because clearly, I am vain. The problem is that the drop-rate in 1 in 1000. As there are a limited amount of mobs that can drop this item, you are going to be spending a lot of time before you get it, unless you are lucky. I am happy to announce that the drop-rate on Nostalrius is accurate after it took me 1100 kills for it to drop, this is as a direct contrast to the Hyacinth Macaw which should have an even worse drop-rate but was a dime a dozen on their AH. The key here is parsing this grind/farming in the best context for the player. In farming/grinding this area I went from L22 to L29 as a holy priest paying for all new spells and profession related boosts. It also generated about 26 gold from cash drops and vendoring grey/white items. This doesn't take into account the greens/blues/plans etc that dropped too. Of course, what I should have done was to use a toon that had skinning. Firstly as this would have provided a significant level boost to skinning and secondly, the extra mats would have vastly increased the cash revenue. The element I'm really getting here is the cash reward on the AH for the pet. On a full grown server these should sell for about 100 gold each. On Nost, they were selling between 20 and 50 gold even though the population was quite high. However, this was on the PvE server which was still in the early days of developing. So the options are to keep the pet and show your vanity, or sell the pet as a huge contribution to your mount costs etc. By combining it with leveling the toon, the professions and the cash reward it all makes sense. The timing of course is critical as to what the value is of the drop. So when we talk about grinding for specific stuff you can see that the options and reasoning is hugely varied. I am just advocating that the approach and rationale should make sense both to you and the game. At thsi stage I could go on about the disgusting oozeling pet debuff trick, but that's for another day/life. Raid Grinding I know nothing about this having never raided apart from going back in BC/WotLK format as a 5-man just to see the old content. What I do know is that it's much harder than any of the raiding I did in TBC, by which I mean Karazhan. I don't think that really counts for much. It's harder than retail WoW for the simple reason that the end content requires something like 50-60 dedicated raiders in your hardcore guild. Retail WoW completely bypasses this, perhaps correctly. But it means that when people make comparisons they completely forget how hard it is to keep 50-60 real people happy most of the time. So the grinding doesn't IMHO come from the actual raiding per se, but from the grind to keep the guild intact to finish all the content. Of course, players are more skilled now and there is a repository of info available, but conversely, getting that amount of people together is much harder as time attention spans are so limited these days. Rep Grinding Ugh. This is the worst, and I mean that in every possible way. Rep grinding is an essential part of Vanilla WoW. The easier ones are faction/race based such as getting to exalted for your race as this reduced say. your epic mount costs by a huge whack. Then some people think that they don't like their goat/mechanical chicken/horse mount and want the cool cat one instead. So now they have to go back and 'level' up all again in Elfland to get their rep up to a satisfactory level including all the cloth donations. Peanuts. For some professions it's necessary to get exalted to get those last few precious recipes/patterns or items. Take Timbermaw/Darkmoon Fair/Argent Dawn for example. Even then, it will depend on how the timelines run on the servers as most implement these according to their own agendas and are usually dependent on specific events to occur before being implemented. Then we have raid factions like Hydraxion Warlords necessary for Molton Core and..... Is this the worst? PvP rep grinding. I think someone said to become Grand Marshall/High Overlord you needed to be doing hardcore PvP for about 6 months on a well-developed server...and have a team dedicated to help you out. So yeah, basically APART from the normal grind it takes to get to L60, then max your professions, then farm (aka grind) for your consumables there is still an enormous amount of grinding that can be done, or worse still, has to be done to get places in the game that you want to go to. It takes a *special* person to achieve all this, or an idiot, or perhaps both. Level Weapon skills So this is what happens when a fantastic epic drop comes to you either by complete accident or a designated drop. This weapon is just so much better than anything you have ever had that you really should be using it, except you never did level up dagger/swords/TH maces etc so off you go back to basic land and beat up a huge amount of low-level vermin to get you back up to speed until of course the next *different* weapon drops.... *So there it is my 'outstanding' guide to grinding with my own personal flavour which I reserve the right to edit and/or change my mind based on the comments that follow. In truth I am a very good farmer, having that ability to just switch off for days doing rinse and repeat with getting bored = I am a mindless zombie. In my forthcoming iteration I intend to explore more of the raiding elements.
Hi Crestfall Community, I was wondering if you level with or without professions, especially those who are usually leveling quite fast as they want to be done with it the sooner the better. So far I have always been a slow leveler and did professions on the way. But recently I have become a bit fed up with it when I took Skinning / Herbalism on a new char and then had to take time out from leveling to get the Herbalism up to speed in order to be able to pick the herbs that were in the zone I was leveling at. Skinning is never an issue, but I am now considering just not having any profession at all (aside from maybe First Aid) while leveling and just dive into that once I hit 60 (which I have never managed on any privat vanilla char so far - I am that slow). Also, would I miss out on a lot of potential gold when not leveling professions when leveling the character?
Greetings. No polls were killed in this thread. The Guild I'm going to help form a guild. It will be called <The Filthy Casuals>. The purpose of this guild will be a multiple. In the first instance it will be a casual and social guild designed for mature, relaxed people with an abiding sense of humour that don't take themselves too seriously. It might raid, but that's not the be all and end all. It might PvP in BG's and killing that prick Fangorm Staghelm, but that's not important right now. What this guild will appeal to are people who: Level up in their own good time and smell the roses and eat the mushrooms on the way Want to explore all of Vanilla WoW and test the boundaries (literally) of the realm Think that levelling their professions is as important as levelling itself Understand that fishing is nearly as important as downing Kel'Thuzad Are here for the PTE long term Want to make money legally on the AH, form cartels, spread their experiences to guildies in-game and in general, become filthy rich casuals. You get the idea. Why isn't this on the guild forum then? Good question. Because we have to think of the bigger picture. From the very start of Crestfall we've been pursuing a simple goal, that we would have a PvE realm from server start. We've been fortunate in that the devs have been sympathetic to this dream, hence Zul'Dare. Since this was agreed we've been working on a number of other things to try and ensure that we maximise the PvE population. Getting the RP section on the forums is a good example of this. After all, if the realm is all-inclusive then you are maximising your potential. At this stage however, the workload now shifts to us for two salient reasons. The first is that PvE is the poor relation of PvP on private servers. While we don't know what the ratio is, we can make a guess that the population on the PvE realm will be ~60% of its bigger PvP brother. The second reason is that on PvE realms there is always an historic imbalance in favour of the Alliance. Our best guess will be 60:40 in their favour. In essence then, the PvE realm will be gimped in numbers (but still very healthy) and the Horde side on Zul'Dare will be gimped still further. With this natural imbalance it means that those of us who want to join the Zul'Dare horde side are going to have to be high on quality to make up our lack of numbers. So what's the plan then? We may be small in number but we will make up for it because we'll be more organised and resourceful than anyone else. In short, we will actually have a plan. In relation to our faction on Zul'Dare we will have the following tasks to achieve: Use the forums to encourage as many players as possible to roll horde on Zul'Dare without being pushy and obnoxious Act as a support network for new players and guilds in relation to assistance in quests, levelling, equipment and information to make the user experience easier without spoiling their fun Tie in with the top Horde raiding guilds to supply them their mats and consumables at fair prices so they can concentrate exclusively on raid progress From day one, start on the AQ war effort to ensure that the Horde (at least) are not found wanting in fulfilling our side of the bargain Ensure that at the very least, Horde PvE guilds have a chance with server firsts in AQ40 and Naxx as opposed to our Alliance counterparts but in particular, Kul'Tiras Do our damnedest to make Zul'Dare the best realm ever in vanilla WoW (retail or PC) and continue this through all expansions Make RL friends throughout this great community of ours that lasts the years ahead. Final Thoughts We can't do this without the community. I'm guessing based on previous threads that there is a genuine interest in this. We're kicking this off now before Beta so we can get an inkling if it's worth pursuing, so let us know what you think, good and bad. There's a placeholder launched on the guild forums just to get first dibs on the name. We'd like to see an Alliance equivalent whom we'll call The Casual Filthy's to replicate what we're doing here and for neutral AH action. PvE has always been about community. Let's reach out and snowball our realm.