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ilovecats

Ret paladin and oomkin comparison?

Does anyone have enough experience with these specs to be able to compare them?

How would they fare in solo roaming and dungeons?

What are their pros and cons, what does one offer that the other doesn't?

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comparison:

they both have mana issues.

they both do subpar dps

they both are in denial of playing a better spec.

 

differences:

one is a chicken and one is a paladin roleplaying a warrior.

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honestly, ret paladins for leveling are a blast, and among the strongest duelists in the game, that is until they hit lvl 54+, after that ret falls off really hard. but before then, and especially in the 30s and 40s you will have a good time with ret (depending on gear ofc).  sadly ret and prot for paladins werent as polished in vanilla. if ret pallies had 1 additional move, e.g. crusader strike they would be pretty good all around. you dont find any gear other than low 50 blues that support ret (strength, intelect + spell dmg) until aq40/naxx, but even at that point the talent tree isnt very polished to allow for super high amazing dps. you have to think about what Blizzard intended with paladins in vanilla. much like shamans they are a support class. shamans are offensive support while paladins are more defensive. paladins were designed to be in the front lines dealing decent damage but their strength lies in their utility. you got shields and heals to keep people alive, stun and blessing of freedom to  help kite people. if you're playing a paladin purely to do dps you chose the wrong class. paladins have alot in their kit, and a geared/skilled paladin can win almost any matchup if they play it right and wait for their window to go.

 

balance druids on the other hand have it pretty bad in vanilla. yes, moonkin form was introduced to up the antie a little bit, but it didnt help much. contrary to popular belief, balance druids can throw out pretty good numbers in dps. but #1 their spells dont scale as well as other casters and #2 they have high mana costs and and no life tap/evocation to help out (unless you play greedy and innervate yourself instead of the healer) and #3 there is hardly any gear for balance available in raids, so you will be competing against classes that do more with the same resources.  balance in dungeons is decent. you're almost a mage without water or sheep, sleep and roots only works on certain mobs and outside instances so you're not bringing any CC either. druids, like paladins and shamans are a hybrid class. to fully utilize the class you need to be looking at all the spells you have available.

 

a huge problem i see with hybrids (and the kids coming from modern wow only make this worse) is them chosing a spec and just sticking with that. druids and paladins need to have 2 sets of gear. one for tanking/damage and one for healing. if you're unwilling/unable to look at your classes bigger picture, and itemise at least 2 sets accordingly you are just underutilizing some of the best classes in wow. you are a jack of all trades and master of none

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They're both pretty weak.  Moonkin have a place in raids once you get to AQ and have a bunch of fire mages, maybe not in a "perfect" raid, but if your guild aren't super picky then it's probably not going to be an issue to have a single moonkin.  Ret paladins have virtually no place in raids until the 2.0.1 patch when they get Crusader Strike and become absurdly strong.

In 5-man content you can pretty much play whatever you want.  There isn't any 5-man content in Vanilla that you can't clear with a moonkin or ret paladin in the party.

In solo content, I have no experience with either.  Hybrid classes typically do poor DPS but have extremely good survivability.  I suspect either would play just fine solo, if someone inefficiently.

In PvP, ret paladins can be viable.. reckoning burst damage is pretty hilarious, and they are quite hard to kill.  Gear choice is very limited though, so you tend to get outscaled.   I don't remember ever seeing any Moonkin getting to high rank, so I don't know anything about that.

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Moonkins have a plus 3% crit chance, so it isn't a bad idea to take 1, maybe you can be that one guy. 

There's also this guy who says he can beat Hunters on DPS as moonkin: http://www.wow-one.com/forum/topic/81946-moonkin-naxx-raider-1115-amalogsetc/ Dunno if the fact it's Feenix effects anything though, I mean for a start, r1 moonfire spam probably will not be as effective on here.

Edited by Pvt_8Ball
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2 hours ago, Darkrasp said:

Ret paladins have virtually no place in raids until the 2.0.1 patch when they get Crusader Strike and become absurdly strong.

 

gonna need a @Bloo zoom on that real quick.

rekt duki.png

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You all are rather discouraging, but I'm still going to try. I don't aspire to achieve anything of importance anyway lol

Thank you for your input.

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1 hour ago, ilovecats said:

You all are rather discouraging, but I'm still going to try. I don't aspire to achieve anything of importance anyway lol

Thank you for your input.

You kind of asked for it though ;) Going to a forum to ask about classes viability you will 'always' get the same copy/paste replies that everyone's been fed for 10 years without much personal experience to the matter. People generally repeat what others have told them, they become mutual truths. Im not saying they dont have a valid point though, from a purely numbers perspective, but in the end, everything (outside naxx40) is doable no matter what, and whats fun is subjective. You might have an absolute blast playing ret pally or boomkin, and then you join a guild that will allow you to play one and stick to it, and you only get better n better as the time goes on, eventually becoming really good once TBC hit. Or you might end up rerolling because you didnt enjoy it, but it should come from you, and you alone, not what someone else told you to do.

The game is alot more than just raiding. As ret you can have a blast in pvp and do quite well in 5mans, esp scholo and strat.

Another difference between vanilla retail vs private servers is that we will have the fully revised 1.12.1 tier set changes that where made at later stages to Judgement set for example. Which made ret alot better than before, almost became somewhat viable before AQ even. (Still not optimal ofc, but viable). I havent played boomkin myself but I hear they actually do decent dps until their mana runs out. The good thing about these hybrid classes is that even if you arent viable yet, you can just respec until a later stage (or for raid-nights) while you gather more appropriate gear and again, its not all about the raids.

So dont be too discouraged, keep at it and join the PVE server for a somewhat more tolerant and mature community :)

 

Edit: Here is the example of tier 2 changes that where made throughout vanilla, with links:

 

Edited by Sakritan
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I've never played either class, so take my advice with a grain of salt. Both builds are sub-optimal but you can make them work with enough effort.

I've heard that ret paladins are a great choice for leveling and PVP, but you will have to respec at 60 to healer if you want a raid slot. Any class other than warrior tanking is a gamble for your entire raid group.

I've heard that boomkins have good DPS but are limited by mana issues in raids. Arcane damage boost items are cheap on the AH, but mp5 is vital and difficult to come by. If you keep consumables stocked and always have mana to run your cast rotation you should be fine. A lot more time invested on gear and consumables, but if you absolutely MUST play a boomkin instead of hunter/mage/lock/etc. it can be done.

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OP specifically ask about solo and 5 mans.  People jump right into raid discussion and never touch on half of what he/she is asking.  I'll provide my feedback with playing with people in BiS BWL gear from both classes/specs, as I love spamming 5 mans as a tank when I don't need things, it's more fun than main city AFK.

 

Boomkin:

5man

Can do good burst DPS with a nuke and then moon fire spam on the bosses in a 5 man, won't see much different from a lock or mage due to the shortness of most 5 man fights.  Locks won't have many chances for a free shadow bolt, mages can't get ignites going / shatter spec which is OP on trash won't help on the boss.

The downside to the boomkin is while clearing trash, you will not have the mana efficiency or AoE damage of either lock or mage.  The one AoE you do have, is a lot of unwanted threat due to the added debuff.  Innervating yourself doesn't make up for this as the CD is greater than what any fast moving group will accommodate for.   If it is a slow group that is drinking after most pulls, you shouldn't notice a difference.  Also for the groups that have a squishy tank and CC wanted, you are limited in which instances you can help in.  UBRS is where you'll shine the most.   They help the tank with AoE threat as long as they keep thorns up, and gives the group MotW which is a plus.   The healer and other caster dps also get a crit buff.   Serve as a backup heal if healer dies somehow but too low mana for a BRez.  Also for fights that might be hard in low gear, you can pre-rejuv/regrowth the tank to make the healers job much easier.

Solo

Solo wise: They are not very well off, and fall behind a feral as a feral will have no down time if balancing shapeshifting / utilizing 6 second non cast for mana regen between power shift heals/moonfire pulls.   T2.5 is the holy grail of Druid solo gear, to allow your versatility to shine without noticeable weakness in any form.

 

Retadin:

5man

Does more consistent damage than burst.  Not high damage, but consistent.   In a favorable instance such as Strat UD, expect a BiS Ret with Hand of Rag to do on average 350-415 damage a second on the trash pulls.  This is if you are going AoE style on the trash.  Single Target Boss, expect more to 280-345 dps.  While most keep their aura up for 10% more holy damage, I frequently request Ret Aura for more AoE tankability, which in turn allows them to go AoE heavy sooner in the pool.  So their single target damage numbers I posted above could be a bit higher, it is best for the GROUP to use Ret when doing things as speed clearing 5 mans for the warrior to hold threat.   Kings / Might / Wisdom what ever buff you got, will help speed the run up as well.  Also you do have LoH in your back pocket, along with spot healing if needed.   Utilize your stun more often than not, just not at the start of the pull or you will limit the warriors aggro gains.

Solo

Solo wise, they fair well for themselves due to their survival skills/bubbles/fast self heal, but with a lack of burst abilities at their disposal, grinding is a bit boring and damage is consistent.  A slow weapon with a proc and DMC:Malstrom will help the pain of grinding/farming higher level mobs.

Raid (since others mention it)

For those that love to only talk Raid:

Ret: Night fall 100% of the time in 40 mans to make up for their 300-400 dps with great gear.  (note: all off tanks should also have a nightfall for when they are not tanking to help increase uptime).  And they should also have a good MP5 set and be a cleanse-bot for fights that require it to free up a healer to focus on healing.  (Auto-Nightfall/Cleanse on these fights).

Boomkin: BiS will look really good in a guild that clears really fast with moonfire spam, they can get up their on the meters with a ToeP style trinket rolling for the duration.   Talking MC zerg boss type fights.   You'll see 800-900 DPS on a 16 second Luci kill (if raid tanks the adds while burning the boss).   Fights that go longer than 20-30 seconds, they drop substantially in terms of DPS.   We all know the buff they bring to a fire mage group - while world buffed, this buff is nil.  Without world buffs, another mage keeping the ignite rolling would be better, as they only need 12% base spell crit to break even with the buff with other 4 mages would have gotten.   If you do bring one though, same rule with pally, they better have an MP5 set as well for decurse fights to free up a mage to DPS.   Also better watch healer mana, innervate your best w/o them having to ask, as often as you can.

Edited by Undertanker
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@Sakritan @Undertanker

Thank you. While I understand that some choices are just plain bad, it saddens me that every game will reach a point when players know all skills and combinations and only allow top tier min-maxed builds.

Meta kills games and makes them boring.

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Warm body that is there almost all the time will be taken over a better spec that isn't there for the guild much.

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1 hour ago, ilovecats said:

@Sakritan @Undertanker

Thank you. While I understand that some choices are just plain bad, it saddens me that every game will reach a point when players know all skills and combinations and only allow top tier min-maxed builds.

Meta kills games and makes them boring.

Well. The game is old, so of course there is a well established meta here, and people have been crunching numbers for so many years. It all comes down to what kind of game you want to end up playing. It is true that there will not be much place in a top-end guild that aims for server first etc. We can never demand that we should have an equal place in those groups or force them to accept anything, because their sole aim is to rush as fast as possible to the end and compete against other guilds. Thats perfectly fine if one enjoys that, and if we want to join that race we gotta meet their requirements.

Now, if you dont care much for that sort of high-end raiding and enjoy other aspects of the game, but want to raid nontheless, with a class you enjoy the most, that should be perfectly fine as well. Join like-minded people and form a guild. People in general will tend to jump at you, bully you, telling you that you are a retard who is playing wrong and should either change spec or uninstall the game. I've met them all before. They have a very narrow view of the game and how it 'should be played', thinking everyone is either a hardcore raider or a filthy noob spreading cancer. Its not unlike the PvP'ers who you might have seen around who claim that everyone playing on a PVE server are retarded carebears. Similar mentality really.

Anyway. There will be meta in vanilla, tbc, wrath and everywhere else. Its inevitable, in vanilla its much more severe than later expacs because of the actual imbalances that plagued most part of the expac until later stages where several classes and talent trees where revised. Tier sets and other gear where changed as well to make up for some parts later on. Here is where private servers have such a big advantage than retail did, we start with 1.12.1 talents, all the class changes, most of the gear changes etc. So balance is not nearly as big of an issue here. Not to mention we know the content like the back of our hands now. Even in vanilla, despite all the lack of these advantages, there were still hundreds of guilds and thousands of raids around the world that ran MC, BWL and AQ with "odd specs" all over the place, and they cleared the content. Its all doable regardless. Naxx might be the exception and I dont have enough knowledge/proof from retail naxx of what compositions actually ran there, but we know it was a very small minority of the playerbase (2%?) that got in there, safe to say it was the most hardcore ones.

This is how easy things become when you minmax and raid more against time than any actual challenge, quoted from another player: "On Warsong i was in a guild called <Argent Crusade> (top guild on the server at that time). We did AQ40+Ony on wednesday and BWL+MC with optional 20-mans on sunday... so getting the lower tier raids isnt really a hassle to do when world buffs make content so easy. Even on K2 atm (Only MC, BWL and Onyxia are released) some guilds clear 40-man BWL and 20-man MC+Ony in less than one raid night (4.5 hours). "

You see. People raid MC with 20 people with optimal specs and AQ is not even released. Raiding 40 people with whatever fluff composition should be fine really, the content will be cleared regardless. (Now people will make the case that those other 20 people will "steal gear", but again, depends on your perspective, steal gear for what? Gear used to clear next raids are gear put to good use imo, no matter who wields it). I am in favor of Crestfall making content harder than Kronos undertuned crap, I want a challenge with the actual content.


Just to be clear before someone jumps on this. I repeat that this is not me saying that everything is equally good or as efficient as minmaxing composition. I have no illusions that a ret pally can do better dps than rogues and fury warriors, or maintank better than a warrior, im not KillerDuki. ;)

 

So @ilovecats, have you decided what server and faction to play on?

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@Sakritan

Well, I'm pretty much set on playing on the PvE realm. I may give the PvP one a try, but that's not my priority as I'm a free "honor" farm.

I'm going to roll ret. I just wanted to see the comparison as I like the moonkins as creatures and thought that maybe it's worth a try. Maybe as an alt.

Thank you for your advice.

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On 2016-11-04 at 6:18 PM, ilovecats said:

@Sakritan

Well, I'm pretty much set on playing on the PvE realm. I may give the PvP one a try, but that's not my priority as I'm a free "honor" farm.

I'm going to roll ret. I just wanted to see the comparison as I like the moonkins as creatures and thought that maybe it's worth a try. Maybe as an alt.

Thank you for your advice.

Cool beans. Then you'll end up Alliance! Maybe i'll spot you in game ;) 

I think druids might be a little bit easier to "off spec" than pally in general, as Feral is a quiet decent tank and moonkin does ok with proper mana management, both cat and bird are above Ret in dps if we talk pure numbers in PVE IIRC. Ret were afaik at the very last place in dps, (I think even shockadin can pull of more dps. (Oh wait, a firemage in MC might do worse xD)), but they got some buffs later on as I said above, as well as better suited gear, and only got stronger as vanilla went on, even became really strong in TBC with the addition of Crusader Strike :) If you ever get into naxx you can use Holy Wrath and Exorcism as well so thats always nice, but naxx might be abit too hard for any casual guild, but I'll certainly try to get there with my guild before TBC launch. But hey, just my humble opinions. No matter what you do tho, dont ever forget to take Consecration!

 

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On the PvP side of things, Prot/Ret hybrid and Balance druid can be pretty decent. Probably worth noting.

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