Welcome to Crestfall Gaming

Register now to Crestfall Gaming. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to contribute to this site by submitting your own content or replying to existing content. You'll be able to customize your profile, receive reputation points as a reward for submitting content, while also communicating with other members via your own private inbox, plus much more! This message will be removed once you have signed in.

Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
Duninn

AV - Classic

37 posts in this topic

So who is excited to play in week long AV's again? After the nerf patch the BG was hit hard, and even more so after TBC where the boss mobs you summon stopped scaling. 

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

AV is going to be a longer battle, for sure.  We're going to un-nerf the NPC health, damage, and spawn rates, and restore as many of the removed spawns as we can.  That said, it's probably worth mentioning that a week-long AV was a rare thing even back in 1.5.  Your typical AV was about 4-6 hours, the only time they'd usually go long is when server population was low, or a fight started late into the night, and there weren't enough people in the battleground to successfully push forward anymore.  Those would stay open with a handful of overnight players slugging away until the next day when enough people logged on and joined in to finish the battle off one way or the other.

Now, while 24-hour AVs may be rare and unusual even here, I think we can all agree that the 4-6 hour range is a far cry from the 20-minute rushes retail has had for years, and should fill the nostalgia craving for those huge, epic battles just fine.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, Darkrasp said:

 it's probably worth mentioning that a week-long AV was a rare thing even back in 1.5.  Your typical AV was about 4-6 hours

I know it was rare, but jsut having the possibility of an AV lasting more than a day is exciting to me again. I did play in vanilla on Dalaran realm, I remember a few times it lasted for multiple days. Was simply great.

And Yes, 4-6 hour AV's alone would satisfy me. I hate losing due to resources, or even winning from that nerf. Took the spirit of the battleground away.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My recollection of alterac valley is how much faster the battleground became after the "avalanche" which closed down so much of the map. I did not care to much for that change, instead of feeling like you were in a "warzone" with objectives all over the place (the all-seeing eye if anybody remembers?) you instead ended up with a tube. The minefield as example was logical within the old map as you would fight around it near the trolls/defias brotherhood/gnolls, within the new map which is the one we know of today it would feel a bit more extreme: kinda like you're stuck between a rock and a hard place - the flexibility options for your movement to objectives is simply lacking.

I believe one of the issues Blizzard worked against were players actively leveling of various NPCs within the old AV map and thus prolonging the games by not participating in the "push" that could be quite brutal due to the amount of NPCs, which in turn made players grind towards exalted by killing players in their own formed raid groups (~1rep per kill). They (Blizzard) could have chosen so may different approaches to solve issues like this without impacting the immersion the "zone" possessed, but instead sadly went with the easy way out: Avalanche.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I mostly agree.  You may not even remember when the harpy cave was full of rich thorium veins, and the frozen lake down below Stonehearth had fish in it.  Players would come into the battleground and spend hours just mining or fishing and soaking up honor for being in the match at all.  That kind of stuff was detrimental to the game and did waste time.  I myself spent hours hanging out behind Galvangar's bunker farming Frostwolf Warriors.  Level 52 mobs that for some reason dropped as much as 25 silver apiece, plus runecloth by the ton and rep items for five different factions at once.  It was a serious monty haul, and honestly it was pretty broken.. Should have been considered an exploit.  Happily, it's very simple to nerf XP/gold/item rewards for NPCs killed in AV if something like that were to become a problem so bad it required attention, and we have no intention of reinstating the rich thorium veins.  ;)

Realistically, players should be fighting each other, and if they are fighting NPCs, then there should be a tangible benefit with regards to winning the match for doing so.  We can make them tough enough that solo farming them is more trouble than it's worth, and that seems like a better way to go about prodding people into the direction of the main fight, without being too heavy handed.  We want big, fun, battles in AV.  I think just about everyone wants big, fun, battles.  So we'll be open to tweaking different things in order to ensure we get the balance right.

2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Darkrasp said:

I mostly agree.  You may not even remember when the harpy cave was full of rich thorium veins, and the frozen lake down below Stonehearth had fish in it.  Players would come into the battleground and spend hours just mining or fishing and soaking up honor for being in the match at all.  That kind of stuff was detrimental to the game and did waste time.  I myself spent hours hanging out behind Galvangar's bunker farming Frostwolf Warriors.  Level 52 mobs that for some reason dropped as much as 25 silver apiece, plus runecloth by the ton and rep items for five different factions at once.  It was a serious monty haul, and honestly it was pretty broken.. Should have been considered an exploit.  Happily, it's very simple to nerf XP/gold/item rewards for NPCs killed in AV if something like that were to become a problem so bad it required attention, and we have no intention of reinstating the rich thorium veins.  ;)

Realistically, players should be fighting each other, and if they are fighting NPCs, then there should be a tangible benefit with regards to winning the match for doing so.  We can make them tough enough that solo farming them is more trouble than it's worth, and that seems like a better way to go about prodding people into the direction of the main fight, without being too heavy handed.  We want big, fun, battles in AV.  I think just about everyone wants big, fun, battles.  So we'll be open to tweaking different things in order to ensure we get the balance right.

Dammit, you are giving away way too many secrets here Darkrasp. Gosh! To think that PvE players would exploit a PvP area for resources is shock! horror! :o levels of cheesiness. I'm sure you've mentioned this before, but with the PvE and PvP realms linked I assume we can draw on both resources to make up the numbers in AV etc? Cheers

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Won't lie I did use to fish in AV a bit, well a lot in vanilla. But all for taking the ore and reducing mobs silver...leave the fish haha.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 21.5.2016 at 3:20 AM, Darkrasp said:

AV is going to be a longer battle, for sure.  We're going to un-nerf the NPC health, damage, and spawn rates, and restore as many of the removed spawns as we can.

I really hope you dont make it like nostalrius did... forcing long AV's is what they did. Have you played AV on Nostalrius? If yes, then you know what i mean, maybe not. The landmines did 1500 noncrit, every Commander 1600 and Lieutenants did 1300 noncrit and they were CC-Immune!! The landmines had very short cooldown on respawn, the Dun Baldar NPC's had very short Respawn times which made no sense, also from my researches, the other elites in AV, with a few exceptions were CC-Immune too! This whole AV on Nostalrius had nothing to do with the AV from 2005-2006!

 

The Long AV's on Nost was forced. There was one AV up at all times, the reason was the huge population, if it wasnt this bad, AV would have much much much more people playing it. So please let me know what you are going to do with these things! You dont need to add and change things just so you can get people zerg, its a dumb idea and has nothing to do with creativity!

 

I have gathered evidence that comanders and lieutentas should do around 300-600 noncrit and not be cc-immune. Please respond Dev.

 

Also from my experience and what wuold make sense is that lots of low levels who enter AV would cause long AV's since they are very little use for winning the game and taking slots away from 60's. I love AV, i played it all the time and a  server has yet to recreate that experience, Kronos is close!

 

BTW: Nostalrius has made their AV Gamebreaking over 100%, they changed on the wrong sides and it was simply not even alpha-version.

Edited by Brikot
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Our intention for AV is to encourage player versus player combat.  We're going to put the elite NPCs back in, un-nerf the NPC hit points, and adjust damage/loot/spawn times as necessary to promote player verus player combat.  We'll come up with something to beta test before we officially launch it, and we expect to need to tweak and tune it to find a good balance.  People who are willing to spend a few hours beta testing AV will be greatly appreciated when the time comes.  I'm not going to put a date on that right now, we've got a ways to go before that happens still, but suffice to say we'll be playtesting AV to ensure it's fun without being arbitrarily difficult.

It's worth mentioning that one of the things that made long AV possible wasn't just the strength of the NPCs, though that certainly helped.  Alliance who holed up at Stormpike Graveyard and defended the pass with 40 people would typically obliterate horde offensives.  It was very, very difficult to break through there.  Horde could do something similar at the entrance to their main base.  Iceblood wasn't too tough a nut to crack, and Tower Point was a freebie, but past that things got really tricky for the Alliance too.  A part of what made Zerging an effective strategy was teams just deciding to base race without bothering to play defense at all.  The obvious solution is to ramp up the benefits of killing other players in AV to exceed the benefits from just killing the boss and ending the game.  Blizzard tried to do this with the reinforcement system, but they might have been better off just using an honor multiplier for player kills.  I recall the typical pre-zerg strategy was to have 30-ish people defending the forward control point, 5 people backdooring other control points and being a general nuisance to the other team, and five people collecting materials for ground assaults or Ram/Wolf riders, which would be the backbone of a push to capture the next control point.

In any case, we'll look at a number of options for tuning AV, with fun as the #1 priority, but if you really want long, dragged-out AV matches, part of that responsibility is on you to play defense.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Darkrasp said:

part of that responsibility is on you to play defense.

Yes long AVs depend on players, and it will result in long AVs, shorter AV's ... from my experience is because of AV Holiday when more people join who want to win, which makes sense and it is acceptable. In non-AV-Holiday there are far less people who are joining to win, dont forget the questers. What i learned from Nost was that you cant just put a Elite NPC on 2min respawn timer. Elite are Elite you cant make them spawn that fast. 1. It takes to long to kill it, 2. It will mostlikely whipe the whole group sooner or later without beeing able to regen because of the respawn time. Also about the CC-Immune on Nost: The result is that it becomes no challenge, because they were additionally faster than players, so anyone coming in their aggro range gets killed except you were a mage or rogue for escape-abilities. Any concept that makes a challenge impossible is gamebreaking and a failed concept. The Elites there always required a Tank and a few healers, you cant zerg it by CCing it, this is one of the biggest reasons how they made people zerg, people give up walking to the front after getting killed all the time...

 

I really hope you guys wont do some weird shit, you have to leave the HP DMG the way it is blizzlike, the amount of low levels and casual players will balance the long avs out... And please dont you make short respawn timers on Elites... One thing instantly comes to my mind is, if one Elite has a 30min respawn time then after some time (weeks / months) Players will know that NPC and to protect it or it is not going to be there for a long time, since Elites also serve as defense.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yea sorry i guess i talked to much, i expected a response. I cannot wait until we are at a time where we can experience an AV like its supposed to be, events, clueless people walking back and forth, people claiming the number one kill count... huge DPS killing lowbies.... people farming for events oh man, where.... .... and people who keep trying to get a graveyard for 30min...

Edited by Brikot
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No, no. You certainly didn't talk too much, take it from me, I'm an expert on that. It's great that you are so enthusiastic and trust me, we are all keen to have a functional version of AV that brings back the farmer former glory. But sorting this out is in the future, if you really have a vested interest in this, maybe join the Beta team as an AV expert might be an option if such an opportunity comes into existence.

Even though I don't PvP I actually like AV, it's just mad fun. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A little disappointed to hear that there won't be any mineral nodes or herbs.

I understand that it encourages some farmers to simply queue up for AV for a chance to get a black lotus or some arcane crystals, but I also think it sparked up some interesting small battles for those resources inside of AV.

Alterac Valley is unlike the other two battlegrounds because it is a mix of both pvp and pve content, it has been a source of epic long battles. Unlike the other BGs, AV's could last for multiple hours and even days!

I think Nostalrius had a very interesting system, where there were a lot of herbs and nodes in the beginning, but their spawn rates had diminished dramatically after the first 30 min to an hour.

It encouraged a lot more people to join this battleground, even though some of those people didn't necessarily participate in directly trying to push for a quick win, they often got kills in the middle of the BG over the herbs and mineral nodes, and turned in the looted armor scraps and other resources, or they sometimes became a victim of opposing faction's "resource defender", who in turn turned in their armor scraps and whatnot.

I believe that its true that in some cases, the herbs made games last longer because they were the main objective of some people, the vast majority were still there to win.

The additional resources added some zest and diversity to the battleground, you would often see some ex-high warlords/grand marshals in AV, who simply entered to try to farm herbs and veins which were often heavily contested and made for cool small battles in the middle. If those resources were removed, you would see a lot less players overall in AV.

Herbs and veins gave incentive to participate to a lot more players, we all know that the worst AVs are the ones where you had a bunch of level 51s, who joined to do the high-exp yielding quests and leech honor and reputaion but had low overall impact on the outcome of the game, especially after the opposing faction's NPCs got stronger.

TLDR; Rich Thorium and Black Lotus in AV will result in more overall AV participants and player diversity.

Edited by surveillance
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How about removing Automatic Battleground invite? This got implemented in 1.12.1 (very late). Non-auto-invite in bgs would support long AVs too, AND the exploration aspect would be nice without people yelling at you what to do...

 

People coming in and totally alone, trying to explore and at the same time survial challenge and trying to group up with friends or people you meet in there while on exporation.

 

Would be great seeing servers removing or adding stuff in the game that lasted very long. Stuff that was added in 1.12.1 lasted 3 months in vanilla! (not talking about class abilities etc, just global stuff)

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hopefully there will be properly functioning NPCs as well as gryphon/bat riders :o 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not necessarily spam. You'd be surprised how many people don't remember AV the way it should be. So many P-server don't have it working correctly (or run the nerfed version) and the original was a long time ago after all.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
57 minutes ago, Brikot said:

all his pictures are from feenix and nostalrius

Yes. No one implied otherwise.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 28/07/2016 at 5:48 AM, Elicas said:

Not necessarily spam. You'd be surprised how many people don't remember AV the way it should be. So many P-server don't have it working correctly (or run the nerfed version) and the original was a long time ago after all.

How was it like back then? Was nos even close? 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, MadeByRockets said:

How was it like back then? Was nos even close? 

It was like the photos, many more NPCS and stuff going on all over the BG. Most servers are like Kronos, no NPC's, nerfed stats on everything, and rush to Drek to nuke the boss down ASAP, 5-8 minute wins.

I'm not sure how it was on Nost, I played on the PvE server and didn't spend much time on it before it got shut down, I'm not sure I even ran it once while I was there.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Elicas said:

It was like the photos, many more NPCS and stuff going on all over the BG. Most servers are like Kronos, no NPC's, nerfed stats on everything, and rush to Drek to nuke the boss down ASAP, 5-8 minute wins.

I'm not sure how it was on Nost, I played on the PvE server and didn't spend much time on it before it got shut down, I'm not sure I even ran it once while I was there.

Stop playing on PvE. COME TO PVP. JOIN / FIGHT AGAINST US!

:ph34r:

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0