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Questions/suggestions for the devs (GDKP and other topics)

Hi, I have a few questions/suggestions and thought I might summarize them in one post instead of making one topic for each. So here we go:

 

1. Will you allow GDKP raids? And in that case, what will the split limit be at? For example, will you allow 95% split, 90% split, 80% split or where will you draw the line?

2. What will the weapon skill cap be on CF? Will you follow Athan's formula?

3. I've looked a lot for rules against multiboxing and have read your stance on it in the "policy on multiboxing"-thread and other places. But I couldn't find a very clear cut answer except for that you will only be allowed 2 accounts per IP. So I'll ask a couple specific questions to find out more about it: If I play with 2 characters in a guild raid and alt tab between them (so no 3rd party program), is that allowed? Or if I raid with one character and have the other one doing farming / mailing goods / whatever, will that be allowed? Or is having two of your accounts logged in at the same time automatically against the server rules assuming that you are the one playing on them?

4. The Demonology talent tree for Warlocks has a talent called "Demonic Sacrifice" which allows you to sacrifice your demon for a certain buff. This buff lasts for 30min or until you summon a new demon, but is not removed when you respec. This makes it possible to spec into that talent, sacrifice a pet to gain the buff and then respec and spend all your 51 talent points into the Affliction and Destruction trees. This way you can (basically) raid with all three talent trees and do 10-15% increased damage of what you otherwise would be able to do. Since the buff only lasts 30min and costs 2 respecs to get it's extremely expensive but possible nonetheless. From all the people I've talked to this is not just a bug on private servers but actually how it worked in Retail wow, but was most likely a bug that Blizzard just overlooked. I'm wondering if you will let this exploit be possible (which would technically be blizzlike) or if you will have the buff disappear when you respec?

5. I read the 11/14/2016 developer update and have a suggestion: Is it possible for you guys to have a thread/page where everybody can see all the proc rates? Just like a list of what proc rates you decide to implement. There are tons of proc rates I'd like to know and making them public would be very appreciated. (examples: Vis'Kag proc rate, Rogue tier 3 8/9 proc rate, etc).

6. Last question: I've been trying to find out the answer to this question for a while but can't find anybody provide any proof for it (just a lot of different opinions being thrown around by lots of people). We all know that hit and crit roll happens at the same time for melee attacks, but I'm wondering how it works for spellcasts. If you have a 90% chance to hit a spell and 10% chance to crit, will you actually crit 10% of your spells or just 9%? The only retail source I could find about this is an old post from elitistjerks forum where one person explained that the answer to my question would be 10% (that it works just like for melee attacks), and that the second roll for spells is simply a resistance roll. The thread is unfortunately gone (I have a screenshot of that comment though), but that's all the proof I could find, and I'd love to hear from a developer how this actually works (and if there is a difference between mangos, other emulators and retail).

 

Thanks in advance.

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Very interesting questions I haven't been thinking about.

Also I haven't heard about GDKP, what's it? Is it a similar guild system/addon to DKP points (back in wrath I remember there was an addon for DKP points)?And a split limit, what's it?

Edited by limov417
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1 hour ago, limov417 said:

Very interesting questions I haven't been thinking about.

Also I haven't heard about GDKP, what's it? Is it a similar guild system/addon to DKP points (back in wrath I remember there was an addon for DKP points)?And a split limit, what's it?

GDKP stands for Gold DKP and works similarly to DKP. When an item in a raid drops the raid members bid for it, but instead of bidding with DKP they bid with gold. The highest bidder trades that amount of gold to the raid leader, and at the end of the raid all the gold is being split up between all the raid members. If there is a 95% split then that means that the raid leader takes 5% of the sum before he splits it out to the rest of the raid (which there is usually a reason for doing, either he takes the extra 5% himself as a reward for organizing the run or he splits it with the tanks who might have used consumables, etc).

 

There has been some controversy about GDKPs in the past because of its tendency to kill off lower level guilds, but there are many good arguments to allow it so I wanted to know.

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Gold DKP is a pyramid / ponzi scheme applied to the WoW PuG scene.

  • During the buy-in period it seems to benefit all participants equally.
  • Eventually 2-3 cliques form that sit on top of the pyramid and everyone else is feeding them either gold or items.
  • It cannibalizes PuGs and lower progressed guilds.

That said it is a community problem so I doubt server admins would want or could do anything to stop it.

Even in classic, some realms were infected with it, others were mostly unaffected.

This guy was the pioneer on retail and his signature tells you all you need to know.

goblin4.png

 

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1.  Probably not going to do much about GDKP.  We can warn players that it's a scam, but that's meta-game behavior and we don't really have control over it.

2.  Pretty sure the weapon skill cap should be 315.  I got some messages about this a while ago but it was put on the backburner because I was working on other stuff, and it's also not something I can fix anyways, that would go to Asura or Rodeg.  I'm unfamiliar with "Athan's Formula".. I played a mage on retail so this was never a big deal for me.  If you can give me some background maybe I can answer this better.  Don't have time to research it right now but I can look into it later.

3.  We're looking at a number of options for combating multiboxing.  Suffice to say we are against it, and we're going to implement some measures to prevent it, though exactly which measures are still being determined.

4.  I suppose it could be fixed, but it seems rather pointless.  How commonly is this exploited?

5.  I'd rather not give away data at this time.

6.  My understanding from how the system works is that with 90% hit and 10% crit, you will only actually crit 9% of the time, because it is possible to crit a miss.  That's why when %hit gear became available it was just as good for fire mages as crit was, and better than crit for every other caster.  That's off the top of my head, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

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42 minutes ago, Darkrasp said:

1.  Probably not going to do much about GDKP.  We can warn players that it's a scam, but that's meta-game behavior and we don't really have control over it.

2.  Pretty sure the weapon skill cap should be 315.  I got some messages about this a while ago but it was put on the backburner because I was working on other stuff, and it's also not something I can fix anyways, that would go to Asura or Rodeg.  I'm unfamiliar with "Athan's Formula".. I played a mage on retail so this was never a big deal for me.  If you can give me some background maybe I can answer this better.  Don't have time to research it right now but I can look into it later.

3.  We're looking at a number of options for combating multiboxing.  Suffice to say we are against it, and we're going to implement some measures to prevent it, though exactly which measures are still being determined.

4.  I suppose it could be fixed, but it seems rather pointless.  How commonly is this exploited?

5.  I'd rather not give away data at this time.

6.  My understanding from how the system works is that with 90% hit and 10% crit, you will only actually crit 9% of the time, because it is possible to crit a miss.  That's why when %hit gear became available it was just as good for fire mages as crit was, and better than crit for every other caster.  That's off the top of my head, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Thanks for the answers.

Athan is a guy who made research about glancing blows/weapon skill calculations back in retail. I don't have the information here but there was a discussion about it on nostalrius forums (just google athan's formula if you guys need it and you will find the information). Short version here: http://vignette4.wikia.nocookie.net/wowwiki/images/9/9e/GlancingReduction.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20060801063552. It basically a formula saying as you said that the cap is 315 for fights against lvl 63 mobs and how much the glancing blow damage reduction is if you fail to reach 315 skill. (35% if you are lvl 300, 15% if you are lvl 305, 5% if you are lvl 310 and 0% if you are lvl 315). Maybe you people know about this stuff already but just in case.

About the Warlock exploit: There was a lot of people abusing it on Feenix in endgame raids to break records since the economy there was so inflated (100g was not much so double respec wasn't really a problem). On Kronos I bet there are people using it as well because of the low respec costs, but I doubt it would be a problem on a server where you have 50g respec costs and a normal economy. I brought it up since it's a good example of a retail bug that shouldn't have been in retail in the first place. But I agree, it won't be a big problem.

About Crit vs Hit: Crit is still always superior to Hit for Warlocks because of the talent Improved Shadow Bolt, but I see what you are saying.

 

I know you have more important stuff to do than to explain things on the forum and I'm happy with the answers, but I'd love to actually get an answer from someone who 100% knows how the hit/crit tables work for casters in vanilla. Is this possible?

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Looked into this a little bit to refresh my memory.  From Wowwiki.. admittedly from 2008, but I remember this being a thing when I was playing.Screenshot_4.png

This makes sense from a mechanical perspective due to how Resistance works with spells.  You'd roll first to see if the spell is resisted, another roll to see how much is resisted, and then roll for a critical strike afterwards.  It's not a single table like melee attacks where all possibilities are included.  There was a lot of debate when %hit gear was first released for casters of whether or not it was better than crit for certain specs, and the math came down to hit being better even at 200% crit damage because you could crit a miss.  It got foggier with fire mages due to ignite's 210% ratio and the ability to roll them across multiple mages, so crit would trump hit depending on your raid comp, provided you had enough hit to reliably keep that stack rolling.

This is just a quick excerpt from my notes on resistances.  This is a big document with a lot more detail, but this bit shows how multiple rolls are necessary to determine how spells hit/miss/partial resist.  Crit isn't factored into any of them, so it stands to reason that crit is rolled separately, though whether it's done before or after shouldn't really affect the result much.  It's either 10% of 90% or 90% of 10%, both of which come out to 9%, if I'm arranging everything properly in my head.

In other words, there isn't a "Hit Table" for spells like there is with melee.  Instead, it's a sequence of rolls one after the other.  Therefore, you only get a percentage of your total crit rate equal to your successful hit chance.

Screenshot_5.png

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The double-spec warlock abuse is indeed common on some private servers, but what makes it very common is whether you have the possibility to get a presummon in dungeon/raid or not. Mages could/can also abuse combustions to get perma 100% crit.

To those not familiar with presummons, you are in a dungeon/raid, a warlock inside that raid summons you, you hearthstone to do whatever (eg : respec back & forth to get the double spec), you accept the summon & you're back in the raid. Whether presummoning is a private server bug or was possible/allowed in retail, I don't really know. I've heard a bit of both, it's definitely a big QoL change for many reasons but I can see the abuse part. Maybe the CF staff has a stand on it ?

Edited by Oxyda
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On Elyisum people alread discourage GDKP in world / trade chat.

If im correct GDKP came into existence on Feenix and never done in a large scale like on Feenix on other servers so after these years, population growed heavily and information is shared faster and dirt is cleaned faster, so yea keep discourage people from this, i never attended this because i couldnt effort 2k or so for just one BWL item <.<

 

What still exists that came from feenix ? Only Cancer grown from feenix.

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