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Nocturn

AOE Threat Generation

The spec: http://db.vanillagam...VzLZVZEizoeMzVo

 

This can be used to dungeon and raid tank, even MT but you may want to put a point or 2 into improved shield wall if you were MT. But only the MT needs to change and think about this. It is the best overall rounded spec (in my opinion, its fine if you disagree). I don't put any points into imp revenge and i'll go on to explain why.

 

Impale spec is very different and gear dependent; wont get into that. Also a MT spec  

 

 

1. Charge Pull

  • Use a 2H weapon (Yes a 2 hander) pop Berserker Rage-->Battle Stance->Charge-->Berserker Stance (switch to this immediately right after you hit charge, [this will generate roughly 23 rage when your first attack hits] all the mobs, most likely 3 or more will hit you and you'l now have more than the 25 rage needed for)->WW-->Defensive Stance (here you want a macro to quickly equip your 1h+shield)->Taunt initial kill target (skull)->tab and revenge/sunder->come around to skull (who should still be on you) Taunt again or Mocking blow.

  • Using a 2hander with WW will cause more damage and thus generate more threat (the more hit and crit you have and the better the 2h the better this works)

  • I don't put points into imp revenge because i think all the points put into TM and improved charge are critical and more important to get that burst damage and initial threat at the very start of a pull

  • Using the WW method you will have enough initial aggro dps can go all out and for those few seconds you wont loose aggro.

  • By popping taunt on the first target instead of using revenge or sunder, you guarantee that target is on you for at least 3 seconds and can use your rage and abilities to hold aggro on the other mobs. By the time you come around to the first target it should be close to dead anyways and you can either taunt it again or throw a shield slam/ revenge/mocking (by this point with all those mobs hitting you you'll have a lot of rage) or just ignore it, dps can finish it off.

  • Yes imp revenge gives a little more threat but if you stun the mob on your first hit you're also loosing out on inc damage/rage to hold more threat on other mobs and again with the WW method, you'll gain more threat anyways.

  • You'll take some extra damage but not so much that your healer can't cope and not so much that he'll have to stop and mana up after every other pull.

  • Easier for the dps to AOE as well and go all out, killing things faster and shortening the run.

2. Ranged Pull

  • Berserker Rage-->Defensive Stance->Shoot->Bloodrage->Battle Shout (be near your group)->Demo Shout right when mobs hit you->Taunt first target->tab and Revenge/sunder->Come back to first target and Revenge/Shield Slam/Taunt or leave for dps->Continue rotation on the other mobs.

  • There may be more difficult mob encounters, for example, the mobs in the Emperor Room in BRD where the mobs hit hard and are quick to loose aggro while trapping you in place. It'l just take practice, make use of mocking blow as often as you can too (it only costs 10 rage and with the spec provided you'll keep 20 and can swap right back and have rage to hit the next mob)

  • Also intercept for the ranged mobs hitting you or the group or running away.

  • Taunt as often as you can and switch targets. This really helps and is underutilized by a lot of tanks who only use it when they LOOSE aggro.

Lastly be vocal and tell your group to use appropriate CC if and when needed and pull your targets away from the CC'd targets and away from your casters.

 

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There's couple of problems there imo.

First of all, tank should be mindful about charging into random trash packs. While it is good way of getting some initial rage, there are also couple of things that they should consider before doing so. How geared they are, and how good their healer is? Then, tank should also think about proximity of other trash packs, and/or patrols. Is it leveling dungeon? Do you have lower level melee dps in your group? That are all things that can turn one charge into random trash group into wipe. If you pull trash back rather then just charge into them, you'll have some additional space to operate in, apply some sheeps, AoE fears, etc...all things that can pull additional trash packs if you are too close to them.

Secondly, while I see your point in keeping taunt on random mobs (forcing them to attack you regardless of threat that you have generated so far), I still firmly believe that taunt should be kept ready for the time when mob attack healer and/or clothy dps, rather then using it whenever is on cd on random mob that is already attacking you. Make a note that taunt doesn't create any threat whatsoever, just forces mob to attack you for next couple of seconds.

Edited by Elviss
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I see your concerns but I don't think you've tanked at a high level before, and I don't mean that with disrespect (maybe you have and you're just playing Devils advocate then I apologize) but all your concerns are obvious concerns that any decent tank should be aware of, I shouldn't have to explain to obviously be aware of how and where you charge

 Hence why I also gave an example of how to range pull.

With the spec I provided your have imp. taunt. only 8 second cd. you use it only at that first initial target. Then I say to use it again after you've hit all the other mobs and only if you've lost aggro and it's up because by that point all the other mobs should be on you. If not, then use your own head and obviously adjust and taunt where appropriate.

There's  also mocking blow.

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I admit that I haven't tanked on highest level, I just found random well geared character on Realmplayers so that my signature looks good :)

When we write guides, mostly, they are written for people who haven't done tanking before (or at least haven't done it in vanilla environment), and therefor all that seem obvious to you, or me, need to be underlined and pointed out. Don't get me wrong there, your guide is decently written and everyone interested should appreciate the effort that you have put into it. However, I singled out few things that I do not agree with. Like, for example, I believe that 8 seconds is still 3 seconds longer then elite mob needs to kill average clothy. For that reason only, I like to have it ready to be used in "oh shit!" moments rather then to use it on the mob who is already attacking me.

Edited by Elviss
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Yeah Fair point. I agree that these guides are to help the average player. I copied and pasted this from another forum where someme specifically asked me about aoe tanking.There are a number of other topics in the warrior forum about levling and dungeon tanking and raid tanking where I've given tips/advice along with other players where we've discussed and shared our info covering most tanking scenarios.

This is solely for tanks who are curious about holding threat on multiple mobs. i could go into detail about tanking in general but that's not the point of this thread.

And just to address your point specifically about the taunt:

The first target (let's say skull) is the one I charge-> then hit with my weapon-> then WW. this alone will cause a good amount of threat. Same applies with the ranged pull where you would use BS and a demo shout plus your white hit on that first target. Sure I could lose aggro if a healer really over healed or a caster went all out crazy on dps (Mellee here isn't a concern) but the taunt guarantees me 3 seconds. I can very quickly target at least 2 other mobs if not 3 within 3 seconds applying a revenge/sunder so by the time I come back around to that target (skull) I can either pop a sunder/revenge  or shield slam if need be (the tank will have a lot of rage at this point). And most likely if it is marked up and skull, it should be close to dead and not really a concern.

This isn't theory crafted. It's what I do

Edited by Nocturn
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I strongly disagree with WW pulling and the reason for this is simple: most mobs pack simply don't allow you go immediately WW and hit all targets. Which means you need to either sit in Berserker Stance generating awful threat on the initial target in order to wait for the mobs to gather up for the WW or you WW early and only hit 2-3 mobs and you've wasted 25 rage. Also, in most situations (read: anything that isn't an obvious AoE pack like the skeletons in DM:W), you won't actually be AoEing stuff down straight away: you and your group will usually take out the priority target first and then start the AoE. With the WW pull you're relying on Taunt > Mocking Blow > Taunt or Taunt > Challenging Shout > Taunt to get your tanking done. Which is obviously RNG dependent and resists will badly screw you over since you won't have any real way to recover other than letting the mobs beat up on your group. Conc Blow also works, but again you have miss/dodge/parry to worry about AND stun immunities/DR. And finally, weapon swapping costs you a GCD, you take a lot more damage from being in Berserker Stance and not having a shield on and you risk losing crit immunity from the potential defense lost from your 1h/shield.

 

I do, despite what I wrote above, approve strongly of using Taunt > cooldown > Taunt on the initial target so you can generate more threat on other targets. Some things to consider though: use Conc Blow first and make sure you have a way to recover if there's an ability in the chain that fails to land. AKA rely on Conc Blow and have Mocking Blow/Challenging Shout as backups so your group doesn't get punched. This is important because you're obviously using your Taunt on keeping aggro and with it on cooldown, you're kinda screwed if you do lose aggro. If both Mocking Blow/Challenging Shout are on cooldown, then you probably don't want to risk a death or even a wipe if the RNG goes against you. Worth noting that organized groups can cover for you in place of your Conc Blow by stunning the mob or using short duration CCs, so communicating with your group can speed things up significantly if means being able to avoid tanking the first mob of each pull for the entire instance.

 

A very important subject you forgot to mention is "damage splitting" as I like to call it. Let's say you're fighting a pack with 4 elites and 2 non elites and everything hits really hard. There are a few ways to approach the situation. One is to have the tank completely ignore the Skull and let the DPS use their CC/defensive cooldowns to kill it and have the healer ignore the damage the DPS take while killing the target: doesn't matter if your three DPS are all sitting at half health after killing the Skull if they don't take damage for the rest of the pull since the healer can just slowly top them off when the incoming tank damage eases up. Another way is to have a ranged DPS take aggro on Skull (works best with Hunters or if you have a Paladin giving out Salv - just have the kiter take off Salv) and just kite it while the rest of the DPS beat up on it. Only works on melee mobs, obviously. Another method is to have the non elites beat up on another group member while the Skull/X are being killed, works best with Warrior DPS who can get aggro on them fairly easily. Sometimes you can even let them beat on the healer, especially when dealing with non-elite caster mobs: the pushback from being hit can be a good trade off compared to have extra targets beating on the tank. Yet another method is to have the tank completely ignore the non-elites and let the DPS kill them first and then start AoEing the elites down. All of these rely on having a good healer who understands that the DPS don't need to be topped off immediately if they're not taking lethal amounts of damage.

 

And one last thing to mention for AoE tanking is the use of consumables and thorns-like effects. Grenades, direct damage trinkets, Essence of the Pure Flame + Nagelring, Crystal Spire, shield spikes, etc. All of these can have a very positive impact for AoE tanking, although they're more suited to true AoE pulls where you're tanking 10+ mobs at a time.

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30 minutes ago, Zaroua said:

I strongly disagree with WW pulling and the reason for this is simple: most mobs pack simply don't allow you go immediately WW and hit all targets. Which means you need to either sit in Berserker Stance generating awful threat on the initial target in order to wait for the mobs to gather up for the WW or you WW early and only hit 2-3 mobs and you've wasted 25 rage.

I clearly stated how with the spec i provided that after the charge and my first white hit landing, along with the mobs hitting you almost instantly, you can cast WW within 0.5 seconds, usually instantly. (i do this all the time)

19 hours ago, Nocturn said:

(switch to this immediately right after you hit charge, [this will generate roughly 23 rage when your first attack hits] all the mobs, most likely 3 or more will hit you and you'l now have more than the 25 rage needed for)->WW

 There really aren't that many packs in most dungeons where there are more than 3 or 4 mobs and lets say there are more, then taunt the mob you missed with your WW, the rotation and everything i said still applies. I also specifically gave an example where there are more like in BRD with 4 or 5 mobs and how to deal with this.....

19 hours ago, Nocturn said:

There may be more difficult mob encounters, for example, the mobs in the Emperor Room in BRD where the mobs hit hard and are quick to loose aggro while trapping you in place. It'l just take practice, make use of mocking blow as often as you can too (it only costs 10 rage and with the spec provided you'll keep 20 and can swap right back and have rage to hit the next mob)

Make use of BS/Demo shout here too if you have the rage and are in range of your party as you should be since they are usually pretty close. Actually this whole build and thought came to me when i first started doing BRD speed runs. Its hard to hold aggro on all those little mobs and dps hit fast, mages aoe, healers heal too soon so that's when i started the WW method which really works and helps with the burst threat or loss of threat. My emp runs were <15 mins every time.

46 minutes ago, Zaroua said:

A very important subject you forgot to mention is "damage splitting" as I like to call it. Let's say you're fighting a pack with 4 elites and 2 non elites and everything hits really hard

You would use CC in a situation like this and most likely Range pull, but if you charge, you can still CC after (Hunter trap, Sheep, fear or whatever else im missing) and yes, this guide isn't on how to dungeon tank with a bunch of clueless people, the initial charge and WW burst will hold aggro and with CC (or even with not) and marking up targets/communicating are just obvious WoW 101 tactics, you kill the non elites first and can leave those to dps (they know this) and same rotation on tanking the 4 elite mobs, shouldn't be any different. This is also a situation that isn't normal, a better tank could use his taunt and mocking blow on a pull like this to hold aggro on all 6 targets, and/or use Challenging Shout here to help because there won't be many pulls like this.

Again, i'm not writing the full dungeon tanking guide. I've given two very useful options on how to hold aggro in most situations. You can use this and work with it, but have to also adjust accordingly and work with the group/encounter.

39 minutes ago, Zaroua said:

use Conc Blow

But Why? This costs 15 rage when i could just taunt the first target, revenge the second target, sunder the third revenge/sunder the first again, taunt the 3rd (or even shield slam because by now i'll really be getting a lot of rage), sunder the 4th or whatever. BUT i will say i do like this if you didn't use the WW method since it keeps them stunned for 5 seconds vs 3 taunt gives and you'll have the rage for it.

42 minutes ago, Zaroua said:

Mocking Blow/Challenging Shout as backups so your group doesn't get punched

Yeah, again i explain when and to use Mocking blow often. Challenging shout is more of an oh shit button but again, like i was mentioning to Elviss, this isn't a full tanking guide. This is a guide simply on the best way to hold threat on multiple mobs in general.

1 hour ago, Zaroua said:

And finally, weapon swapping costs you a GCD

True but that WW burst will keep aggro. The whole point of the charge and WW is to grab and hold initial threat for at least 3 seconds (more with the scaling of gear/weap, i use as much hit/crit gear i have when dungeon tanking). Let's say i use the same spec and Charge-->Defensive Stance->Taunt(or Conc. Blow)->Rotation of sunder/revenge. This will work for the first 2 mobs, that third and 4th will turn and either start attacking melee dps(not the worst thing) or run to caster/healer (BRD Emp Room adds). The WW Burst guarantees the majority of the targets focus on me and if i miss one, i can throw my taunt on the one i missed first, then go into the rotation i mentioned and not have to worry about adds running away from me.

The whole reason for WW is because players playing on private servers now are much better with a lot more knowledge and expect more and run quickly through things. You need this burst damage because dps don't wait or slow down at all anymore and expect quick runs. Its just an evolution of tanking, i have the same views in raid tanking. Read my thread on the 440 def cap vs 8% hit.

1 hour ago, Zaroua said:

you take a lot more damage from being in Berserker Stance and not having a shield on and you risk losing crit immunity from the potential defense lost from your 1h/shield.

Any warrior in half decent gear can tank a dungeon, we're not talking about raid tanking here or even UBRS, even without a prot spec. But swapping to Zerk to WW and the extra damage you receive is not so much that any half decent healer can't cope with. It may be different and unexpected but you can let them know to be ready and they'l learn and adjust with the run. Also the only mobs that hit that hard would be in DM N and id charge here but not use WW unless raid geared, but not really even necessary (also very easy to CC here). I actually really like the Conc. Blow thing you said by popping that first and will use this all lot more, don't know how i missed this while it was starring right at me :/ 

You also need the spec i gave for the WW or you could pop bloodrage after the swap to Zerk Stance.  

1 hour ago, Zaroua said:

And one last thing to mention for AoE tanking is the use of consumables and thorns-like effects. Grenades, direct damage trinkets, Essence of the Pure Flame + Nagelring, Crystal Spire, shield spikes, etc. All of these can have a very positive impact for AoE tanking, although they're more suited to true AoE pulls where you're tanking 10+ mobs at a time.

Engineering Shield is also amazing for AoE, use that at the start of every pull then swap back to a regular shield. And when tanking Strat/Scholo, Throw down some holy water on the skeletons and you'll never loose aggro.

 

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1 hour ago, Nocturn said:

-snip-

Here's a more concrete example: you Charge in, swap to Berserker Stance, get to the mobs and wait half a second to WW. You then weapon swap and go into Defensive Stance and then start using your prot abilities. So let's say 300 dmg a hit: you generate 240 threat on the Skull about 1 second after the Charge, then you WW 1.5 seconds after the Charge for 960 threat, swap to DStance and proc the GCD for your weapon swap and you land your first threat ability 4.5 seconds in (1200 threat). If you used Berserker Rage before the pull, that means less than 5 seconds left on it when you enter DStance. If you use it before going into DStance, you'll have generated a whooping 1420 threat in 6 seconds (2 autos, 4 WW).

I Charge in, go into Berserker Stance mid charge and hit Berserker Rage. I hit Skull and generate about 100 threat. I swap to DStance with a bit more than 9 seconds left on Berserker Rage, auto attack Skull again, Shield Slam the second target, Heroic Strike the third and Revenge the fourth. Total of 290ish threat on Skull, about 750 on the second target (Shield Slam), 450ish on the third target (Heroic Strike) and about 490 on the fourth target. Total of 1980 threat in 4 seconds. I Taunt the Skull during the swap back to DStance during the Berserker Rage GCD and then slap a Conc Blow on it. By then I have a full rage bar and a few seconds left on my Berserker Rage so I can still throw in another 3-4 HS before my rage starts going down.

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2 hours ago, Zaroua said:

Taunt the Skull during the swap back to DStance during the Berserker Rage GCD and then slap a Conc Blow on it

Just a little confused on the wording here, so you charge, Zerk rage then swap to Dstance and taunt and then Conc Blow same target? If i read that right why taunt and conc blow the same immediately?

I cant find any faults in anything you said actually, starting to agree with you.

Curious what spec you'd run for this/raiding 

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I usually don't feel the need for Whirlwind as well. If the mage has to use AoE for large groups of non elites the healers usually can keep up with healing. If it is a larger group of elites it is just safer to Focus them one by one. That way I only need to get above healing threat on secondary targets which is very easy to do.

I usually just pull and use Battle Shout and Blood Rage to be first in the threat list and have a head start as well. And I try to keep ranged damage dealers and the healer at range. Then I use Taunt on the main target. Revenge/Sunder on one of the secondary targets. After Taunt wears off I use Concussion Blow on the main again and continue to use Revenge/Sunder on the secondary targets. If the main target is not dead after CB wears off I can use Taunt again but most of the time it is dead. That way I have a lot of threat on all remaining targets already. Usually even enough for the damage dealers to start AoE the rest of the pack without them getting aggro. But I usually let them continue to take them down one by one.

The only downside of this is that Taunt is part of my tanking rotation. So when I really should lose aggro on one target it could be that it is not ready. Mocking Blow should be but it works differently than Taunt as it does not give you any threat. But usually it is enough to buy me some time to Taunt and Shield Slam to get on top again.

It just needs a disciplined group that takes down targets as you marked them. Sometimes I see like people posting insane rotations for AoE threat with heavy stance dancing and what not when in fact it is just enough to have the party members managing their threat. At least for a little bit. Tanking is after all team work in my opinion.

I am not a raid tank so it may not be optimal but I like to use 11/4/36 as spec. I find Improved Revenge very useful in dungeons. Revenge does even more threat when the stun hits. And it mitigates some damage as well. And Anger Management is really nice to be able to build up some rage before a fight ends and it allows me to keep some of that rage for the next encounter. It makes up for having neither Imp. SA nor Imp. HS at least for the beginning of a fight (which is the most important part anyway). Makes it very easy just to have a quick start.

Edited by fruitsalad
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With a different Rage gen esp from damage taken, you won't be able to afford WW.

Control+F "Cleave" ... GASP! Seriously. Though yea, I reckon it will only be good if you have a lot of rage with the fixed rage calculation. With the incorrect version, you could Cleave for days while Sunder/Rev/Shield Slam rotating among mobs. Also with fixed formula, you might as well remove Conc. Blow from your action bar folks. There will be a lot of tears if you waste rage on that. And yea, I expect Taunt to be more actively used in the rotation for multiple mobs.

"Ranged Pull" bit in the OP I agree with yea. Most likely in 5/10/20 mans, you can just Charge in and Thunder Clap than swap to defensive. If you can squeeze in a Berserker Rage before the Charge between pulls, that's great. I highly recommend Oil of Immolation, Thorium Grenade (engi), Crystal Spire, Skullflame/Force Reactive disk for high aoe threat. I personally use Force Reactive for high AoE tps situations, but Skullflame just for consistent AoE threat for 4-5+ mobs when needed. If you're boss you can have 3-4 Force Reactive Disks and constantly swap them after each breaks. I probably should do this, but I am lazy. 

Ooooorrrr you could just be lazy and get one of these bad boys: 

 

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My original post with WW works within .5 seconds after charging in with the spec I provided, I used to do it that way.

@Zaroua provided his rotation which I've also tested out, and his generates more threat in less time and is the safer, better  and more effecient option. Actually I think I'm going to edit my op with the new rotation.

And as for rage, I tested both of these on Kronos where the rage gen is quite close to blizz like and was able to still get off shield slams, conc blows and WW.

You only really need one Fore Reactive disk since you just use it on initial pull which will be enough to gain initial aggro along with your rotations and then swap back to a regular shield.

 

 

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