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Topdps

warlock guide
Warlock Raiding Guide by Topdps

Well written. Have to mention that some of the BiS items won't be available when server launches, so might wanna update this but in the end it says everything about raiding with a warlock. 

Maybe another tipp for the alliance players: when raiding you will be in need of alot soulshards. You can farm these 2 mins of (epic) riding away from raidstart (usally ony head popping in stormwind entrace) in raven hill, duskwood. Buff yourself with detect invis and you will see.

 

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Thanks a lot for the time and effort you've put in this guide. I'm planning to roll warlock here and this guide covers almost everything I wanted to know.

One question though: Which professions do you think I should pick? Assume I won't have any alts to farm mats for my main. I was thinking Tailoring + Enchanting for convenience (bags, enchants, crafted gear etc) for vanilla and tbc but seeing that most crafted gear and enchants are boe, I'm wondering if I should simply buy them off of A.H. and pick a better profession combo. But in that case, I don't know how much gold I'll have to spend on gear and how hard it is to save gold in vanilla. What's your opinion on this? I'd like to pick two professions for warlock (without alts) which will be viable both in vanilla and tbc.

 

P.S. I'll be on the PvE server. I'm not planning to do any pvp (at all).

Edited by Quantus
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On 2016-11-27 at 2:23 AM, Topkek said:

Well written. Have to mention that some of the BiS items won't be available when server launches, so might wanna update this but in the end it says everything about raiding with a warlock.

Thanks for the heads-up. I looked it up and it seems like Ban'Thok Sash, Spritecaster Cape, Skyshroud Leggings and Briarwood Reed will be changed. I might modify my list later to accomodate for this.

 

On 2016-11-27 at 10:42 AM, Quantus said:

Thanks a lot for the time and effort you've put in this guide. I'm planning to roll warlock here and this guide covers almost everything I wanted to know.

One question though: Which professions do you think I should pick? Assume I won't have any alts to farm mats for my main. I was thinking Tailoring + Enchanting for convenience (bags, enchants, crafted gear etc) for vanilla and tbc but seeing that most crafted gear and enchants are boe, I'm wondering if I should simply buy them off of A.H. and pick a better profession combo. But in that case, I don't know how much gold I'll have to spend on gear and how hard it is to save gold in vanilla. What's your opinion on this? I'd like to pick two professions for warlock (without alts) which will be viable both in vanilla and tbc.

 

P.S. I'll be on the PvE server. I'm not planning to do any pvp (at all).

300 Tailoring gives you the Bloodvine setbonus (+2% crit chance) making the set irreplaceable until Naxxramas and enchanting is also good since you can make Brilliant Wizard Oil. Tailoring/Enchanting is a good combo both for yourself and to bring in some extra cash, and Tailoring is almost mandatory in TBC. Otherwise I'd say Herbalism/Alchemy is good for making your own elixirs and potions (and flasks) and getting rich.

 

EDIT: For future readers who are choosing professions for their Warlock I'd like to mention that professions in Vanilla WoW aren't as important as in later expansions. 99% of crafted items/consumables in 1.12 are usable for everybody (not just for people with a certain profession) so the main reason to level a profession should always be to just make money from it. If you enjoy Mining and Blacksmithing more than the professions I mentioned above then you shouldn't be discouraged from leveling it just because your Warlock can't use mail/plate. Sure, while leveling it can be nice to craft equipment that you can use but at level 60 there's almost no advantages of having a certain profession over another. If you are a Warlock with Mining/Blacksmithing then you can just mine and forge a Nightfall axe, sell it on the AH and then buy Felcloth or Bloodvine gear from the money you earned. The only profession that's "needed" is Engineering, and that's only for PvP, as you need it for Iron Grenades, Rocket Helmets, Reflectors etc. 300 Tailoring gives your Bloodvine Set a 2% crit bonus but that's it, in PvE you can go with anything. My next WoW-character will be a Rogue and I'm planning on not leveling any profession simply because pickpocketing in BRD makes me the most gold/hour. Professions matter in later expansions, but not in Vanilla.

Edited by Topdps
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That's a really good guide. Never played a warlock myself begin of the healing fraternity. But it gives class insight which is very invaluable to me.

I also love the fact that you made it clear and simple for all. +10 if I could

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That is a real great guide, but as you did also a lot of math on the Hit vs Spellpower thematic i couldn´t stop myeld from doing the calculations myself and found that your math is sometimes a little bit off. For all practical purposes this shouldnt matter at all, but just to get it correct:

At the Crit/Hit stuff: The Critbonus can be calculated, assuming no override by any other debuff but another crit, as

Critbonus=1.2*Critchance+(1-Critchance)*Critchance*1.4+(1-Critchance)*(1-Critchance)*Critchance*1.6+(1-Critchance)*(1-Critchance)*(1-Critchance)*1.8

which gives, when you plug in the possible Critvalues between 0 and 1, values between 1.8 and 1.2. Your estimate with 1.5 is fascinatingly close to the result for 25% Critchance, which is 1.54.

On the Spelldamag worth: Can you explain how you got your approximation formular?

The correct formular is obtained by taking the derivatives of the Damage ( ignoring overall multiplicative factors as they cancel out then you divide) with respect to Spellpower and Hitchance and divide them. The damage is given by

Damage=(Basedamage+6/7*Spellpower)*Hitchance*(1+Critbonus*Critchance)

where the Critbonus is given as before. Taking the derivatives and divide gives

(Basedamage+6/7*Spellpower)/(6/7*Hitchance).

This is the ratio of damage you gain if you would gain infinetesimally amounts of hitchance or spellpower. As the derivatives change rather slowly ( i am not going to prove that) and most items have only 1 or 2% hit this is a very good approximation. ( the completly exact result would require to take second derivatives into account and integrate over the items Spellpower and Hitchance, but lets not get into that).This result is completly independent of critchance, as the Critchance is also only an overall multiplicative damage bonus.

If you plug in the values you get Spellpower values for 1 Hitchance in the range of 717 at 0 Spellpower and 83% Hitchance up to 1066 at 300 Spellpower  and 1921 at 1000 Spellpower and 83% Hitchance. ( remember these are calculated in units where 1% hit is 0.01, so you have to divide by a factor of 100 if you want to evaluate 1% hit items). At 98% the numbers are slightly lower, 607, 903 and 1525.

So why i am writing all of this? In Your example (90% hit, 1000 Damage) the correct Value is not 14.5, but 12.9( assuming rank 10 Shadowbolts with 510 Basedamage, which is quite a difference.

Also your approximation formular for the value is too low by roughtly 1 for 83% Hitchance and nearly corect ( 0.05 deviation) at Hitcap. After all this:

Great guide nonetheless, and as i stated initially this is all irrelevant for practicall purposes.

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9 hours ago, Rohbar said:

At the Crit/Hit stuff: The Critbonus can be calculated, assuming no override by any other debuff but another crit, as

Critbonus=1.2*Critchance+(1-Critchance)*Critchance*1.4+(1-Critchance)*(1-Critchance)*Critchance*1.6+(1-Critchance)*(1-Critchance)*(1-Critchance)*1.8

which gives, when you plug in the possible Critvalues between 0 and 1, values between 1.8 and 1.2. Your estimate with 1.5 is fascinatingly close to the result for 25% Critchance, which is 1.54.

You can calculate the value of the Improved Shadow Bolt debuff assuming no overwriting, that's correct. However, there is no 40-man fight where you can assume there's no overwriting from other debuffs so any theorycrafting about this becomes virtually useless. The amount of Warlocks (and several other classes) in the raid and their exact Hit & Crit Chances as well as the amount of debuff slots used all decide if the Improved Shadow Bolt debuff will be used before it's overwritten or not. Do we understand each other or did I miss something?

 

9 hours ago, Rohbar said:

On the Spelldamag worth: Can you explain how you got your approximation formular?

The correct formular is obtained by taking the derivatives of the Damage ( ignoring overall multiplicative factors as they cancel out then you divide) with respect to Spellpower and Hitchance and divide them. The damage is given by

Damage=(Basedamage+6/7*Spellpower)*Hitchance*(1+Critbonus*Critchance)

where the Critbonus is given as before. Taking the derivatives and divide gives

(Basedamage+6/7*Spellpower)/(6/7*Hitchance).

This is the ratio of damage you gain if you would gain infinetesimally amounts of hitchance or spellpower. As the derivatives change rather slowly ( i am not going to prove that) and most items have only 1 or 2% hit this is a very good approximation. ( the completly exact result would require to take second derivatives into account and integrate over the items Spellpower and Hitchance, but lets not get into that).This result is completly independent of critchance, as the Critchance is also only an overall multiplicative damage bonus.

If you plug in the values you get Spellpower values for 1 Hitchance in the range of 717 at 0 Spellpower and 83% Hitchance up to 1066 at 300 Spellpower  and 1921 at 1000 Spellpower and 83% Hitchance. ( remember these are calculated in units where 1% hit is 0.01, so you have to divide by a factor of 100 if you want to evaluate 1% hit items). At 98% the numbers are slightly lower, 607, 903 and 1525.

So why i am writing all of this? In Your example (90% hit, 1000 Damage) the correct Value is not 14.5, but 12.9( assuming rank 10 Shadowbolts with 510 Basedamage, which is quite a difference.

Also your approximation formular for the value is too low by roughtly 1 for 83% Hitchance and nearly corect ( 0.05 deviation) at Hitcap.

I'm afraid I don't understand this part of your post but I'm always open ears on changing the guide for the better. Why does Shadow Bolt base damage matter?

Edited by Topdps
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6 hours ago, Topdps said:

I'm afraid I don't understand this part of your post but I'm always open ears on changing the guide for the better. Why does Shadow Bolt base damage matter? And it seems that you are saying that 1% increased chance to Hit doesn't increase your Hitchance from 83% to 84% but rather 83% to 83%*1,01 = 83,83%. Are you saying that casting Shadowbolt with 0% Hit from Gear means that you hit 6/7 times which is ~85,7%, and that every increased Hit Chance becomes more and more useful since the base it's counted on is increased every time? I'm curious on why you divided Basedamage+6/7*Spellpower with 6/7*Hitchance, did you mean 6/7+Hitchance?

 

The formular comes from the derivatives, the complete calculation is as follows:

Damage=(Basedamage+6/7*Spellpower)*Hitchance *Modifiers

The modifiers can be anything which does not depend on hit or spellpower, as for example % damage buffs from talents, crit bonuses etc. Now take the partial derivatives with respect to Spellpoer and Hitchance

dDamage/dHitchance= (Basedamage+6/7*Spellpower)*Modifiers

dDamage/dSpellpower= 6/7*Hitchance*Modifiers

( I write d as a symbol for the partial derivative as I dont know how to write mathematical symbols in this forum, i do not mean the total derivative by d)

Finally take the ratio of both, the modifiers all cancel out and what remains is

(Basedamage+6/7*Spellpower)/(6/7*Hitchance).

The reason to take the derivatives is the concept of marginal utility which you maybe know from e.g. economics, just that our "utility" is the damage we cause on mobs.

The base Damage matters, as the increased hitchance applies to both basedamage and the damage gained from Spellpower, while spellpower obviuosly does not change the basedamage, therfore a higher base damage increases the value of hit relative to spellpower.

I was saying that the hitchance you start with is 0.83 and is increased by a 1% iteam to 0.84. But the derivatives are calculated in a way that the numbers come out for a change of 1, not 0.01, therefore you have to divide them by 100. ( that is e.g. the 717 i get as a result mean 1% hit is worth 7.17 Spellpower). I hope it is now easier to understand what I meant.

 

 

Edited by Rohbar
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8 hours ago, Rohbar said:

The formular comes from the derivatives, the complete calculation is as follows:

Damage=(Basedamage+6/7*Spellpower)*Hitchance *Modifiers

The modifiers can be anything which does not depend on hit or spellpower, as for example % damage buffs from talents, crit bonuses etc. Now take the partial derivatives with respect to Spellpoer and Hitchance

dDamage/dHitchance= (Basedamage+6/7*Spellpower)*Modifiers

dDamage/dSpellpower= 6/7*Hitchance*Modifiers

( I write d as a symbol for the partial derivative as I dont know how to write mathematical symbols in this forum, i do not mean the total derivative by d)

Finally take the ratio of both, the modifiers all cancel out and what remains is

(Basedamage+6/7*Spellpower)/(6/7*Hitchance).

The reason to take the derivatives is the concept of marginal utility which you maybe know from e.g. economics, just that our "utility" is the damage we cause on mobs.

The base Damage matters, as the increased hitchance applies to both basedamage and the damage gained from Spellpower, while spellpower obviuosly does not change the basedamage, therfore a higher base damage increases the value of hit relative to spellpower.

I was saying that the hitchance you start with is 0.83 and is increased by a 1% iteam to 0.84. But the derivatives are calculated in a way that the numbers come out for a change of 1, not 0.01, therefore you have to divide them by 100. ( that is e.g. the 717 i get as a result mean 1% hit is worth 7.17 Spellpower). I hope it is now easier to understand what I meant.

Hi again. I read your post many times and agreed with your way to calculate Hit vs Spell Power and couldn't wrap my head around why you disagreed with me considering I don't see any problems with what you said. Then I looked at my post and realized how I reached the 14.5 spell power, it was simply by multiplying 12.5 with 7/6 without modifying the number with Hit% and Crit% like I did with the +Hit and reached 14,5. Oh well, I got sloppy towards the end of the night and messed it up. I edited the post and also removed the mentions of Crit in the comparison as there's no reason to confuse people with irrelevant information. Thanks for the correction.

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Hey,

Good job on that guide, well written and very helpful ! I also raided competitively on warlock and I would like to share and add a few things. 

- Regarding the DS/Ruin, a small optimization would be this. You are correct that the points in Imp Succubus, Imp Voidwalker and Fel Stamina are fillers, therefore I would suggest to put 3/3 Improved Imp and some points in Fel Intellect. The reasoning is that if you play with a limited debuffs slots system, all the warlocks should be DS/Ruin anyway. We probably raided in different conditions, but I find the Imp in the MT group far from being mandatory, especially on Alliance since they have BoK, except on a few fights, in which case you then make one DS/Ruin warlock to get his Imp out anyway. Regarding Fel Intellect, it's very minor but an extra mana-pool can be useful on fights such as Baron Geddon to at least dispel yourself and C'thun for the silences. 

- It depends on the server you're playing on aswell, but the 4 points from Cataclysm can be moved into Intensity and Pyroclasm if Pyroclasm works. This is in my opinion a huge utility talent that can saves some lives and reduce the strain on the healers. There is so much AoE in AQ40, if it's working, I would suggest to at least give it a go.

- It depends on what you meant with "highest DPS warlock dot", but I'm pretty sure Agony is better than Corruption. Obviously, it needs to stay up as long as possible so it's not always worth it if the mobs dies quickly and it also has higher risks to get overwritten.

- I don't agree that there is a point where you stop using Shadow Burn. It's true that the coefficient makes it that Shadow Bolt "catches" up, but it's always a better damage/global cooldown. If you're on a DPS-check fight and can spare the shards, I would still use it whenever it's possible. You are correct that's Shadow Bolt has a better damage/mana, so on some fights it might not be worth (eg PW, Loatheb where you can't get reliable heals).

- To expand on the way hit & crit works, it's true that you can't crit a missed spell. Contraty to the melees, the game uses a double-roll table to decide what your spell is going to be. First roll is "is the spell going to hit or miss ?" and the second roll is "is the spell going to crit ?". Therefore you are totally correct, disregarding Improved Shadow Bolt (ISB), hit > crit. You said it in other words aswell, but gaining hit actually increases your chance to crit ; while gaining 1% crit doesn't exactly increase your chance to crit by 1%, slightly less.

Let's say you have 7 hit on gear and 10 crit total. That would mean you have 90% chance to hit (83+7). Out of 100 bolts and the 90 that will hit, 10% will crit, so 9 bolts will crit.

- I disagree that Bracers of Arcane Accuracy become better than Rockfury in late content. I would say that 6 spell power is always superior to 12 intellect (0,2 crit). I made some calculations a while ago and found out that 1 intellect ~ 0,3 spell power (with late AQ gear). You also have to take into account that spell power affects your dots, while intellect doesn't. It's true that in a DS/Ruin, your dots are a minor part of your DPS (~12-18% according to my lasts damage meters), but still.

- You made a very good points about trinkets. They are often disregarded but they are essential. It should also be noted that dots take the full effect of the trinket since their coefficient is 1. Opening with a trinket and dotting (or even multi-dotting on trash) is a good DPS booster. You can also reduce the downtime on trinkets by trinket swapping multiple on-use trinkets (ie TEoP, ZHC, Draconic Emblem, etc.). The addon TrinketMenu helps with that.

- You cover the items pretty well. I would say that T2.5 head is better than Mishundare on bossfights, otherwise Mishundare is BiS through all VG for trash. Ritssyn Ring of Chaos is a good pick-up if you can until you get the C'thun's ring. Tailoring is indeed mandatory for the Bloodvine bonus that you basically only replace with T3 dress+boots and Polarity Leggings. If you can afford to, Engineer is the best raiding/pvping profession. Sapper Charges are insanely fun to use on top of the very good damage, and grenades may save your life!

- Good coverage on the Twins ! Sometimes the aggro works a bit funky depending on the server, Curse of Doom on CD can help that. Pop Shadow Ward on CD aswell so you always have 2 uses per tanking phase. Death Coil can also be a life saver.

Thanks for reading and once again good job on the guide !

Cheers

 

Edited by Oxyda
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On 27.11.2016 at 0:59 AM, Topdps said:

6. Preraid BiS Gear

I'm not sure what version of database is gonna be use by CF but simple green items with shadow damage are better then few of your propositions.
example...
World drop cloak with 19-20 shadow damage > this one from DM
World drop shoulders with 29-30 shadow damage > felcloths

Also... A lot of items here are Dire Maul+ or 1.11+

Edited by duzyizly
19-20 cloak (not 29-30)
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Hi Oxyda, thanks for the feedback.

On 2016-12-23 at 1:36 PM, Oxyda said:

- Regarding the DS/Ruin, a small optimization would be this. You are correct that the points in Imp Succubus, Imp Voidwalker and Fel Stamina are fillers, therefore I would suggest to put 3/3 Improved Imp and some points in Fel Intellect. The reasoning is that if you play with a limited debuffs slots system, all the warlocks should be DS/Ruin anyway. We probably raided in different conditions, but I find the Imp in the MT group far from being mandatory, especially on Alliance since they have BoK, except on a few fights, in which case you then make one DS/Ruin warlock to get his Imp out anyway. Regarding Fel Intellect, it's very minor but an extra mana-pool can be useful on fights such as Baron Geddon to at least dispel yourself and C'thun for the silences.

Imp in MT group is incredibly important, 460hp+ extra for the tanks and everybody in the tank group is a game-changer and matters more than 5% extra damage from 1 Warlock will ever do. You will always use SM/Ruin Warlocks as you need the Blood Pact for the tank group, it's even arguable to have several SM/Ruin Warlocks just for the Blood Pact for other groups as well, 460 x 5 = 2300 overall raid hp which will most certainly help the raid more than ~50 extra raid DPS. I agree though, having a player with backup Improved Blood Pact is better than a completely useless Succubus talent, but I can't ever see how it will matter anyway as anytime the raid needs extra Blood Pact it's just better to have Warlocks respec SM/Ruin instead of not sacrifice their succubus (so they only lose 5% dps, not 15%).

 

On 2016-12-23 at 1:36 PM, Oxyda said:

- It depends on the server you're playing on aswell, but the 4 points from Cataclysm can be moved into Intensity and Pyroclasm if Pyroclasm works. This is in my opinion a huge utility talent that can saves some lives and reduce the strain on the healers. There is so much AoE in AQ40, if it's working, I would suggest to at least give it a go.

Good point, I used Cataclysm spec for a while when supression room was hard and for AQ40 trash. But I'm not sure about how it's going to work on Crestfall. On Feenix it was 26% stun chance per tick but I've heard many people say it's supposed to be 26% per Hellfire/RoF spell cast making it almost useless. If it's 26% per tick it's a good idea to spec into it for trash but if it's 26% per spell cast it's never worth the talent points.

 

On 2016-12-23 at 1:36 PM, Oxyda said:

- It depends on what you meant with "highest DPS warlock dot", but I'm pretty sure Agony is better than Corruption. Obviously, it needs to stay up as long as possible so it's not always worth it if the mobs dies quickly and it also has higher risks to get overwritten.

I did the math as I got unsure about this when you mentioned it and came to the conclusion that Corruption and CoA does about the same DPS if you are at ~500 Spell Power, anything less CoA is better and anything more Corruption is better. The advantage to CoA is that it only needs to be applied every 24 seconds instead of 18, but on the other hand you don't benefit from the 4% Nightfall proc from using CoA. For SM/Ruin Warlocks this evens out perfectly but for DS/Ruin Warlocks CoA has an advantage as it's less cast time spent on DoTs. I guess it all depends on your gear, I edited the guide and made a more concise explanation on debuff slots.

 

On 2016-12-23 at 1:36 PM, Oxyda said:

- I don't agree that there is a point where you stop using Shadow Burn. It's true that the coefficient makes it that Shadow Bolt "catches" up, but it's always a better damage/global cooldown. If you're on a DPS-check fight and can spare the shards, I would still use it whenever it's possible. You are correct that's Shadow Bolt has a better damage/mana, so on some fights it might not be worth (eg PW, Loatheb where you can't get reliable heals).

You are correct about this, I probably forgot the reason why I didn't use Shadowburn on CD and assumed it was because of damage loss. The real reason was because I wanted to utilize the 6/8 T3 bonus and because of the short range of Shadowburn. It's also smart to keep Shadowburn off cooldown if you know that you might have to move your character during a boss fight as it's instant cast and can be used while running. But yes, unless you are absolute top gear with personal PI Priest and Flask you'll probably benefit from using Shadowburn when you can.

 

On 2016-12-23 at 1:36 PM, Oxyda said:

- To expand on the way hit & crit works, it's true that you can't crit a missed spell. Contraty to the melees, the game uses a double-roll table to decide what your spell is going to be. First roll is "is the spell going to hit or miss ?" and the second roll is "is the spell going to crit ?". Therefore you are totally correct, disregarding Improved Shadow Bolt (ISB), hit > crit. You said it in other words aswell, but gaining hit actually increases your chance to crit ; while gaining 1% crit doesn't exactly increase your chance to crit by 1%, slightly less.

Let's say you have 7 hit on gear and 10 crit total. That would mean you have 90% chance to hit (83+7). Out of 100 bolts and the 90 that will hit, 10% will crit, so 9 bolts will crit.

I agree totally, was I unclear about this somewhere?

 

On 2016-12-23 at 1:36 PM, Oxyda said:

- I disagree that Bracers of Arcane Accuracy become better than Rockfury in late content. I would say that 6 spell power is always superior to 12 intellect (0,2 crit). I made some calculations a while ago and found out that 1 intellect ~ 0,3 spell power (with late AQ gear). You also have to take into account that spell power affects your dots, while intellect doesn't. It's true that in a DS/Ruin, your dots are a minor part of your DPS (~12-18% according to my lasts damage meters), but still.

It's possible that 1 intellect would represent around 0,3 spell power in late AQ gear, but what I talked about was "close to BiS Naxxramas gear" where 2 Intellect beats 1 Spell Power. Not only because of the Crit and the value of ISB but also because of the max mana gain. I'm too rusty to do the math and the difference between these two bracers are minimal (and they both gets beaten by Gothik bracers anyway) so I won't go more into detail about this but I stand by that with top gear your raid will benefit more from the BWL bracers than the Rockfury ones.

EDIT: I removed the part where I compared them as it's a pretty useless comparison anyway.

 

On 2016-12-23 at 1:36 PM, Oxyda said:

- You made a very good points about trinkets. They are often disregarded but they are essential. It should also be noted that dots take the full effect of the trinket since their coefficient is 1. Opening with a trinket and dotting (or even multi-dotting on trash) is a good DPS booster. You can also reduce the downtime on trinkets by trinket swapping multiple on-use trinkets (ie TEoP, ZHC, Draconic Emblem, etc.). The addon TrinketMenu helps with that.

The way Spell Power worked on Feenix was that your dot damage would be calculated the moment they do damage, not when they are applied, so the best time to use the trinkets was after using all your DoTs (right after your first shadowbolt). Should it work differently, should the overall DoT damage be calculated from your Spell Power the moment they are applied instead?

 

On 2016-12-23 at 1:36 PM, Oxyda said:

- You cover the items pretty well. I would say that T2.5 head is better than Mishundare on bossfights, otherwise Mishundare is BiS through all VG for trash. Ritssyn Ring of Chaos is a good pick-up if you can until you get the C'thun's ring. Tailoring is indeed mandatory for the Bloodvine bonus that you basically only replace with T3 dress+boots and Polarity Leggings. If you can afford to, Engineer is the best raiding/pvping profession. Sapper Charges are insanely fun to use on top of the very good damage, and grenades may save your life!

About T2.5 Head vs Mish'Undare: Mish gives you 2 Spell Power and 1 Crit instead of the 12 Stamina and 1 Hit from T2.5. Assuming we rate Crit higher than Hit (ISB value) the only reason to use T2.5 head if you have Nef head would be because of the extra HP. It's perfectly reasonable to prioritize survivability but overall I wouldn't rate T2.5 higher as it gives you less DPS.

 

On 2016-12-23 at 1:36 PM, Oxyda said:

- Good coverage on the Twins ! Sometimes the aggro works a bit funky depending on the server, Curse of Doom on CD can help that. Pop Shadow Ward on CD aswell so you always have 2 uses per tanking phase. Death Coil can also be a life saver.

Thanks for reading and once again good job on the guide !

Cheers

If Vek'lor keeps his debuffs after the switch then CoD is insane to use as 3200+ instant aggro is gamechanging. I doubt this will be the case on CF though?

 

Thanks for the additions, Oxyda, I appreciate it and will edit the guide accordingly.

Edited by Topdps
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On 2016-12-23 at 2:58 PM, duzyizly said:

I'm not sure what version of database is gonna be use by CF but simple green items with shadow damage are better then few of your propositions.
example...
World drop cloak with 29-30 shadow damage > this one from DM
World drop shoulders with 29-30 shadow damage > felcloths

Also... A lot of items here are Dire Maul+ or 1.11+

Sure, if you can link any of these +Shadow damage-items I'll add them to the list of preraid gear.

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Hello Topdps and thank you aswell for the feedback !

On 26/12/2016 at 2:34 PM, Topdps said:

Imp in MT group is incredibly important, 460hp+ extra for the tanks and everybody in the tank group is a game-changer and matters more than 5% extra damage from 1 Warlock will ever do. You will always use SM/Ruin Warlocks as you need the Blood Pact for the tank group, it's even arguable to have several SM/Ruin Warlocks just for the Blood Pact for other groups as well, 460 x 5 = 2300 overall raid hp which will most certainly help the raid more than ~50 extra raid DPS. I agree though, having a player with backup Improved Blood Pact is better than a completely useless Succubus talent, but I can't ever see how it will matter anyway as anytime the raid needs extra Blood Pact it's just better to have Warlocks respec SM/Ruin instead of not sacrifice their succubus (so they only lose 5% dps, not 15%).

You make a good point and you're right. My experience comes mainly from horde and we usualy want to give the tank group a shaman, sometimes you lack shamans so you have to sacrifice spots to fit in all the melees with shamans. Also we are mainly farming and not progressing, so most of the time the extra HP doesn't matter. We only put an Imp on hard hitting bosses or when it can really make a difference  (ie Chrommagus, Loatheb, PW for the soakers (but not the MT), Maexxna, etc.). Whether you want to always have an Imp or only situationnally is up to the RL.

Also don't forget that you lose 15% fire damage with SM/Ruin, and arguably AQ40 is packed with AoE phases. I'm only probably being a bit selfish and I wouldn't want to be the Imp Bitch as I enjoy DS/Ruin more :P

On 26/12/2016 at 2:34 PM, Topdps said:

Good point, I used Cataclysm spec for a while when supression room was hard and for AQ40 trash. But I'm not sure about how it's going to work on Crestfall. On Feenix it was 26% stun chance per tick but I've heard many people say it's supposed to be 26% per Hellfire/RoF spell cast making it almost useless. If it's 26% per tick it's a good idea to spec into it for trash but if it's 26% per spell cast it's never worth the talent points.

I wasn't aware of that distinction. The tooltip is rather unclear, so you're totally right. If it's per tick, it's awesome ; otherwise it's rather meh.

On 26/12/2016 at 2:34 PM, Topdps said:

I did the math as I got unsure about this when you mentioned it and came to the conclusion that Corruption and CoA does about the same DPS if you are at ~500 Spell Power, anything less CoA is better and anything more Corruption is better. The advantage to CoA is that it only needs to be applied every 24 seconds instead of 18, but on the other hand you don't benefit from the 4% Nightfall proc from using CoA. For SM/Ruin Warlocks this evens out perfectly but for DS/Ruin Warlocks CoA has an advantage as it's less cast time spent on DoTs. I guess it all depends on your gear, I edited the guide and made a more concise explanation on debuff slots.

This is probably where we differ in our comparison. I do not compare their damage per second (DPS, which would be CoA_damage/24 and Corruption_damage/18), I only compare damage per global cooldown (DMG/GBCD, which would be CoA_damage/1,5 and Corruption_damage/1,5). If you assume the dot is going to stay up the full time, then I believe the latter is a bit more relevant, as the usage of one GBCD nets more damage. Most of the time anyway, if you're not assigned to CoR, CoS or CoE, you probably don't have the luxury of the debuff slots :/

On 26/12/2016 at 2:34 PM, Topdps said:

You are correct about this, I probably forgot the reason why I didn't use Shadowburn on CD and assumed it was because of damage loss. The real reason was because I wanted to utilize the 6/8 T3 bonus and because of the short range of Shadowburn. It's also smart to keep Shadowburn off cooldown if you know that you might have to move your character during a boss fight as it's instant cast and can be used while running. But yes, unless you are absolute top gear with personal PI Priest and Flask you'll probably benefit from using Shadowburn when you can.

I actually redid some calculations and following the reasoning of DMG/GBCD, Shadowburn actually loses. Apologies for the wrong statement I made before. The advantages of Shadowburn are the one you stated, aswell as being a good finisher when you know your next Shadow Bolt won't hit the target (cast time + fly time). Also, it's easier to snipe an ISB with Shadowburn than with Shadow Bolt :)

On 26/12/2016 at 2:34 PM, Topdps said:

It's possible that 1 intellect would represent around 0,3 spell power in late AQ gear, but what I talked about was "close to BiS Naxxramas gear" where 2 Intellect beats 1 Spell Power. Not only because of the Crit and the value of ISB but also because of the max mana gain. I'm too rusty to do the math and the difference between these two bracers are minimal (and they both gets beaten by Gothik bracers anyway) so I won't go more into detail about this but I stand by that with top gear your raid will benefit more from the BWL bracers than the Rockfury ones.

EDIT: I removed the part where I compared them as it's a pretty useless comparison anyway.

I compared again with full BiS (or what I believe it to be, we may differ). Calculations made for Shadow Bolt damage including int/crit/hit vs lvl 63. Rockfury came slightly ahead and I didn't find that 1 int ~ 0,5 spell power. Also a bit more of spell power means more powerful dots, even if the dots are not our main source of damage. And indeed I got slightly better damage with Gothik's bracers, although abysmal again. Overall I can't disagree, the difference is abysmal, there is not a real point of debating this for hours. I concede that my calculations don't take the percentage of ISB uptime into account.

On this topic, you are then most likely right aswell about Mishundare vs T2.5. Assuming my same calculations T2.5 came slighly ahead for personal DPS but obviously better ISB uptime means better raid DPS.

On 26/12/2016 at 2:34 PM, Topdps said:

The way Spell Power worked on Feenix was that your dot damage would be calculated the moment they do damage, not when they are applied, so the best time to use the trinkets was after using all your DoTs (right after your first shadowbolt). Should it work differently, should the overall DoT damage be calculated from your Spell Power the moment they are applied instead?

I actually don't know how it should work, you made me curious and I'll definitely have a look into it. Where I play, the damage is indeed calculated with the SP you have when you apply it. So popping trinket and dotting is better than popping them after. You trinket + apply CoD instead of popping the trinket when it's gonna explode ; you cast a shadow bolt and pop the trinket while the bolt is mid-air so it benefits from it, etc. I didn't consider it could work differently when I wrote that, so indeed we'll have to see how it works on CF.

On 26/12/2016 at 2:34 PM, Topdps said:

If Vek'lor keeps his debuffs after the switch then CoD is insane to use as 3200+ instant aggro is gamechanging. I doubt this will be the case on CF though?

Well once again I didn't consider this could/should be the case. Debuffs are not wiped when they teleport on VG, actually causing some troubles if some ignites are running (but I suspect the aggro isn't working as intended either). I'll have a look on it too, I'm curious about that proper behavior!

EDIT : This video seems to show that the debuffs are not wiped on teleports.

Thanks for taking the time to reply, I definitely enjoy quality & well-argued discussions :)

Edited by Oxyda
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9 hours ago, Oxyda said:

Also don't forget that you lose 15% fire damage with SM/Ruin, and arguably AQ40 is packed with AoE phases. I'm only probably being a bit selfish and I wouldn't want to be the Imp Bitch as I enjoy DS/Ruin more :P

The Nightfall talent on Feenix was bugged for many years and actually gave you a 16% (!) chance on Corruption tick to get an instant shadow-bolt, not 4%, so SM/Ruin was the funnier/more skillful spec to play there. But of course, on a server with correctly working Nightfall talent I'd also prefer DS/Ruin.

 

9 hours ago, Oxyda said:

This is probably where we differ in our comparison. I do not compare their damage per second (DPS, which would be CoA_damage/24 and Corruption_damage/18), I only compare damage per global cooldown (DMG/GBCD, which would be CoA_damage/1,5 and Corruption_damage/1,5). If you assume the dot is going to stay up the full time, then I believe the latter is a bit more relevant, as the usage of one GBCD nets more damage. Most of the time anyway, if you're not assigned to CoR, CoS or CoE, you probably don't have the luxury of the debuff slots :/

You're right about this, CoA is the better debuff to keep up as it's a higher damage increase (and therefore more efficient usage of a debuff slot) than Corruption. But it's different for SM/Ruin Warlocks since a Nightfall Proc saves them 1 second of cast time on a Shadow-bolt, and those can only come from Corruption and not CoA. On Feenix the 16% chance of an instant Shadowbolt per Corruption tick as I mentioned made Corruption superior but on other servers for DS/Ruin-specced Warlocks it might not be. I'm a little worried about Ignite though, I assume CoA has a higher debuff priority than Corruption and might therefore more easily push out Ignite or other important debuffs? It's very hard to find information about how the debuff slots works so I can't tell for sure.

 

9 hours ago, Oxyda said:

I actually redid some calculations and following the reasoning of DMG/GBCD, Shadowburn actually loses. Apologies for the wrong statement I made before. The advantages of Shadowburn are the one you stated, aswell as being a good finisher when you know your next Shadow Bolt won't hit the target (cast time + fly time). Also, it's easier to snipe an ISB with Shadowburn than with Shadow Bolt :)

I don't see how Shadowburn isn't a damage increase unless you are very highly geared with flask;

Depending on how long the fight is (and your maximum mana) the amount of Life Taps per Shadow Bolt differs. But let's say the average mana needed for a Shadow Bolt or a Shadowburn (~400mana) takes 0,5sec to get from Life Tap. That means that Shadow Bolt takes 3 sec to cast and Shadowburn takes 2 sec to cast. For Shadowburn to be worth using it then needs to do at least 66% of the damage of a Shadow Bolt. The base damage of a Shadow Bolt / Shadowburn is ~500 damage which needs to make up at least 1/3 of the overall damage for Shadow Bolt to outweigh Shadowburn as Shadowburn only benefits half as much from +Spell Power. Your average (non-crit) Shadow Bolt then needs to do >1500 damage to beat Shadowburn in effective DPS. For your Shadowbolts to do 1500 damage on average you need 1000 / 6/7 = around 1160 Spell Power. With talents and DMF World buff you need less than that and it's not impossible to reach 1000 Spell Power with Flask. But you probably won't unless you're very high geared.

I think what I initially wrote was reasonable: at AQ/Naxx level you probably shouldn't use Shadowburn anymore as it's not a damage increase anymore (and you lose the advantage of having it off-cd in case you need to move). But before AQ it's most likely a good idea to fill out your rotation with Shadowburns, especially in instances like MC/BWL where there's so many spell pushback mechanics that doesn't affect instant cast spells. Maybe we both agree with this, I just wanted to be clear.

 

9 hours ago, Oxyda said:

I compared again with full BiS (or what I believe it to be, we may differ). Calculations made for Shadow Bolt damage including int/crit/hit vs lvl 63. Rockfury came slightly ahead and I didn't find that 1 int ~ 0,5 spell power. Also a bit more of spell power means more powerful dots, even if the dots are not our main source of damage. And indeed I got slightly better damage with Gothik's bracers, although abysmal again. Overall I can't disagree, the difference is abysmal, there is not a real point of debating this for hours. I concede that my calculations don't take the percentage of ISB uptime into account.

I'd argue that the value from ISB and the extra mana is as much of an advantage as the Crit damage, so there's more to take into account when calculating the value of Int. But yeah it's not the most important discussion in the world.

 

9 hours ago, Oxyda said:

Well once again I didn't consider this could/should be the case. Debuffs are not wiped when they teleport on VG, actually causing some troubles if some ignites are running (but I suspect the aggro isn't working as intended either). I'll have a look on it too, I'm curious about that proper behavior!

EDIT : This video seems to show that the debuffs are not wiped on teleports.

We had the same problem on Feenix with mages pulling aggro with Ignite so who knows, maybe it's intended.

 

9 hours ago, Oxyda said:

Thanks for taking the time to reply, I definitely enjoy quality & well-argued discussions :)

I do too, sometimes more than actually playing the game itself. Happy New Years!

 

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Hey hey!

Ahah, well of course if the talent has a 16% proc instead of 4%, I can see why it's mandatory and I wouldn't be surprised if that actuallymade up for the additional 5% shadow damage that DS brings over SM. Anyway I guess that's a bit out of topic, I'm pretty confident they wouldn't leave a bug like this on CF :) 

On 30/12/2016 at 11:35 PM, Topdps said:

I don't see how Shadowburn isn't a damage increase unless you are very highly geared with flask;

Depending on how long the fight is (and your maximum mana) the amount of Life Taps per Shadow Bolt differs. But let's say the average mana needed for a Shadow Bolt or a Shadowburn (~400mana) takes 0,5sec to get from Life Tap. That means that Shadow Bolt takes 3 sec to cast and Shadowburn takes 2 sec to cast. For Shadowburn to be worth using it then needs to do at least 66% of the damage of a Shadow Bolt. The base damage of a Shadow Bolt / Shadowburn is ~500 damage which needs to make up at least 1/3 of the overall damage for Shadow Bolt to outweigh Shadowburn as Shadowburn only benefits half as much from +Spell Power. Your average (non-crit) Shadow Bolt then needs to do >1500 damage to beat Shadowburn in effective DPS. For your Shadowbolts to do 1500 damage on average you need 1000 / 6/7 = around 1160 Spell Power. With talents and DMF World buff you need less than that and it's not impossible to reach 1000 Spell Power with Flask. But you probably won't unless you're very high geared.

I'm not so sure about the fact of doing calculations based on adding Life Tap castime. Life Tap scales of spell power so those time values would be inconsistent. I understand you did quick and rough estimations but can we safely assume something out of it ? I would either compare dmg/gbcd or dmg/mana and maybe mix them up. Also can you actually go as high as 1160 spell power ? BiS DS/Ruin is around 700sp (not including atiesh), and you can gain 150 (flask) + 36 (oil) + 40 (shadow elixir) + 35 (greater arcane elixir) = 260. I'll admit I didn't look that much into BiS SM/Ruin, I understand that you go for higher spell damage components such as Heigan's hat and such.

Let's say X is your spellpower.

- Damage multipliers (1,10 for CoS ; 1,15 for DS ; 1,15 for Shadow Weaving and 1,2 for ISB) affect Shadow Bolt and Shadowburn the same way so we can disregard them.

- Crit chance and Hit chance affect Shadow Bolt and Shadowburn the same way so we can disregard them and only compare their non-crit damage.

- Raw non-crit damage from your Shadow Bolt (Rank 10) is SBo10 = (482+539)/2 + X*3/3,5

- Damage per global cooldown from your Shadow Bolt is SBo10 * 1,5 / 2,5.

- Raw non-crit damage for your Shadow Burn (Rank 6) is SBu6 = (450+503)/2 + X*1,5/3,5

- Damage per global cooldown for your Shadow Burn is SBu6.

- Finding X to have both damage per global cooldown equal shows that the multipliers are irrelevant and that X = 1985,67 spell power.

On 30/12/2016 at 11:35 PM, Topdps said:

I think what I initially wrote was reasonable: at AQ/Naxx level you probably shouldn't use Shadowburn anymore as it's not a damage increase anymore (and you lose the advantage of having it off-cd in case you need to move). But before AQ it's most likely a good idea to fill out your rotation with Shadowburns, especially in instances like MC/BWL where there's so many spell pushback mechanics that doesn't affect instant cast spells. Maybe we both agree with this, I just wanted to be clear.

Since you never reach close to 2000 spell power, I would now argue that Shadowburn is ALWAYS a damage increase, regardless of gear. And even more if you're sniping ISB !

On 30/12/2016 at 11:35 PM, Topdps said:

I do too, sometimes more than actually playing the game itself. Happy New Years!

Ahah, me too! Happy New Year aswell :)

Edited by Oxyda
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On 2016-12-31 at 1:45 PM, Oxyda said:

I'm not so sure about the fact of doing calculations based on adding Life Tap castime. Life Tap scales of spell power so those time values would be inconsistent. I understand you did quick and rough estimations but can we safely assume something out of it ? I would either compare dmg/gbcd or dmg/mana and maybe mix them up. Also can you actually go as high as 1160 spell power ? BiS DS/Ruin is around 700sp (not including atiesh), and you can gain 150 (flask) + 36 (oil) + 40 (shadow elixir) + 35 (greater arcane elixir) = 260. I'll admit I didn't look that much into BiS SM/Ruin, I understand that you go for higher spell damage components such as Heigan's hat and such.

Let's say X is your spellpower.

- Damage multipliers (1,10 for CoS ; 1,15 for DS ; 1,15 for Shadow Weaving and 1,2 for ISB) affect Shadow Bolt and Shadowburn the same way so we can disregard them.

- Crit chance and Hit chance affect Shadow Bolt and Shadowburn the same way so we can disregard them and only compare their non-crit damage.

- Raw non-crit damage from your Shadow Bolt (Rank 10) is SBo10 = (482+539)/2 + X*3/3,5

- Damage per global cooldown from your Shadow Bolt is SBo10 * 1,5 / 2,5.

- Raw non-crit damage for your Shadow Burn (Rank 6) is SBu6 = (450+503)/2 + X*1,5/3,5

- Damage per global cooldown for your Shadow Burn is SBu6 / 1,5.

- Finding X to have both damage per global cooldown equal shows that the multipliers are irrelevant and that X = ~ 40.

Well, unless my calculations are wrong (I would really love a double check on that by the way, I think I made correct assumptions but you can always miss some stuff when you're too focused on a thing), it seems we were both wrong in our statements and actually wrong on different things! If it's correct, as soon as you go over 40 spell damage you're better using Shadow Bolt.

Yes it's true that SM/DS talent, DMF buff, CoS, Shadow Weaving and ISB doesn't affect this comparison at all, my bad. But this makes Shadowburn even better than I made it out to be. The reason I added mana cost to the calculation was because the only argument against using Shadowburn would be because of its higher mana/dmg cost. But we can exclude that from the calculation for the sake of simplicity (this also benefits Shadowburn even more)

I don't understand how you made your calculation, assuming we exclude mana cost from the equation (and the bonus of having Shadowburn off CD) it's a very simple one. Shadow Bolt takes 2,5s to cast and Shadowburn takes 1,5s to cast. For Shadowburn to be worth it it needs to do at least 1,5/2,5 = 0,60 = 60% of the damage of Shadow Bolt. The damage difference between Shadow Bolt and Shadowburn gets higher and higher the better gear you get, and it's not until Shadowburn only does 60% of Shadow Bolt damage that it's a worse dps spell than Shadow Bolt. Since 1/2 of your spell power is then 40% of your Shadow Bolt damage it means that the base damage of your Shadow Bolts has to be as low as 20% of your total Shadow Bolt damage 100-(40*2) for it to be better dps than Shadowburn. For 20% of your overall damage to come from the Base Damage you need to do 5x as much damage than the base damage, meaning that your non-crit Shadow Bolts has to do 510x5=2550 damage (excluding any percentual modifiers like CoS as you mentioned). For a non-crit Shadow Bolt to do 2550 damage you need a ridiculous amount of Spell Power in the 2000s. Since it's impossible to have that much Spell Power Shadowburn is always a damage increase compared to Shadow Bolt.

The reason I brought up the increased mana cost is because it's not really a 1,5s vs 2,5s comparison, the mana you have costs time to get so the cast time ratio shouldnt be 3 to 5 between these spells but more like 2 to 3 (as i said before, 2s vs 3s). In that case the break limit between Shadow Bolt and Shadowburn shouldn't be over 2000 Spell Power but more like as I said 1160.

In short: Shadowburn is a 1,5s cast spell, Shadow Bolt is a 2,5s cast spell, for Shadowbolt to be better it has to do almost twice as much damage as it takes almost twice as long to cast. Since the base damage of the spells are very similar you need a ton of Spell Power to make a difference in damage between the spells to make the extra second of cast time worth it. Casting 3 Shadow Bolts (3x2,5=7,5s) takes as long time as casting 5 Shadowburns (5x1,5=7,5s), so the damage of Shadow Bolts has to be much higher. At 40 Spell Power Shadowburn does 477 + (40*3/7) = 494 damage and Shadow Bolt does 510 + (40*6/7) = 544 damage. 5x494 = 2470 damage and 3x544 = 1632 so it's very clear that Shadowburn is a better spell to use than Shadow Bolt at 40 Spell Power.

Agreeable?

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Posted (edited)

Hey Topdps,

Reading your post I realized how dumb was my last conclusion about 40 spellpower and Shadowburn never being a DPS increase. I double checked my maths and find I out I made a crucial mistake (guess my point about missing obvious stuff when you're too focused on it was true :p) : to calculate the damage per global cooldown of Shadowburn, I was dividing the base damage of Shadowburn per 1,5 where I shouldn't have divided it by anything, as Shadowburn is instant and its base damage equals the damage per global cooldown.

Doing the corrected maths, I found X = 1985,67 spell damage. I edited my post. My conclusion would be that Shadowburn is ALWAYS a damage increase, even more when you're sniping ISB.

That would be even more spellpower until we get access to Shadow Bolt Rank 10 (even though the upgrade from R9 to R10 is not that big).

So your above maths are correct, it's indeed a "ridiculous amount of Spell Power in the 2000s" and "always a damage increase". I'm glad we conclude the same and thank you for making me take a deeper look at Shadowburn :) 

I'm not totally getting your point about the mana. Shadowburn R6 is 350 mana, Shadow Bolt R9 is 355 mana and R10 is 364 mana so I think we can safely say that Shadowburn is always a better damage/mana than Shadowbolt right ? I also admit I sort of never care for my mana, I assume we have infinite amount of it. Obviously Life Tap uses a global cooldown so it's a dps loss (obviously locks should use runes/mana potions), but spamming Shadowburns inbetween Shadow Bolts nets more damage/mana than only doing Shadow Bolts, so it doesn't really matter if you're oom quicker.

Edit : I'm stupid.

Edited by Oxyda
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Posted (edited)

26 minutes ago, Oxyda said:

I'm not totally getting your point about the mana. Shadowburn R6 is 350 mana, Shadow Bolt R9 is 355 mana and R10 is 364 mana so I think we can safely say that Shadowburn is always a better damage/mana than Shadowbolt right ? I also admit I sort of never care for my mana, I assume we have infinite amount of it. Obviously Life Tap uses a global cooldown so it's a dps loss (obviously locks should use runes/mana potions), but spamming Shadowburns inbetween Shadow Bolts nets more damage/mana than only doing Shadow Bolts, so it doesn't really matter if you're oom quicker.

Shadow Bolts mana cost is 2.5% (4% for R10) higher than Shadowburn, but Shadow Bolt deals more than 2.5% (or 4% for R10) damage than Shadowburn => Shadow Bolt has a higher damage per mana ratio than Shadowburn.

Even with the example you're using in your discussion above with only 40 spell damage, Shadow Bolt does more than 10% (544/494 = 1.101) more dmg, which of course is higher than 2.5% (or 4% for R10) mentioned above. Shadow Bolt scales better than Shadowburn in damage, which also leads to better damage per mana, so with higher spell damage, the difference will be even larger. 

Edited by Allor
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1 minute ago, Allor said:

Shadow Bolts mana cost is 2.5% (4% for R10) more than Shadowburn, but Shadow Bolt deals more than 2.5% (or 4% for R10) more damage than Shadowburn => Shadow Bolt has a higher damage per mana ratio than Shadowburn.

Even with the example you're using in your discussion above with only 40 spell damage, Shadow Bolt does more than 10% (544/494 = 1.101) more dmg, which of course is higher than 2.5% (or 4% for R10) mentioned above. Shadow Bolt scales better than Shadowburn in damage, which also leads to better damage per mana, so with higher spell damage, the diffrence will be even larger. 

Yeah that's true I compared damage per globalcooldown per mana instead of damage/mana. My bad. Thanks!

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