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Fladrif

What if hybrid classes were supposed to play hybridly?

31 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

What I mean here is simple and straightforward: what if "Vanilla WoW class balance" in PvE was designed to be a little more profound than tank-heal-dps ?

What if hybrid classes were designed to fulfil different roles in the same dungeon?

Imagine that warrior is always supposed to tank independently from the spec (otherwise you won't roll a warrior), and a priest is always supposed to heal. Then the mage, the rogue, the warlock and the hunter are all designed to bring Damage (dps in wow jargon) in different ways.

Why should the druid, the paladin and the shaman perform exclusively a single role in the same dungeon?

For example, I think that a druid should be healer, kitty or off-tank depending on the specific pull that the group is engaging.

So, when we create the usual 5men group, ideally we should look for:

  • 1 warrior,
  • 1 priest,
  • 1 mage/rogue
  • 1 warlock/hunter (hunter if we have the mage, and warlock if we have the hunter in order to provide different kinds of damage -melee or spells-)
  • 1 druid/paladin (play support-healer and off-tank and dps depending on the specific needs of the group and special buffs)

Considering that ANY class can do damages of some sort, we're  talking about a "Holy Couple": the tank and the healer. When you have a tank that engages the mob and a healer that keeps the tank alive, you could even rely on another priest to be focused on damage: it will be a quite long process though.

And since the best tank is always the Warrior and the best healer is always the Priest -and when I say "best", I mean that they shouldn't struggle too much with equipment and talents to achieve a good enough level-, you can see that "dps" could be pretty much everything.

In the ideal group that I outlined, you have 4 combinations:

  • Warrior, Priest, Mage, Hunter, Paladin/Shaman
  • Warrior, Priest, Rogue, Warlock, Paladin/Shaman
  • Warrior, Priest, Mage, Hunter, Druid
  • Warrior, Priest, Rogue, Warlock, Druid

And, as you can see there wouldn't be unbearable conflicts with Loots (for example, the support class Druid wouldn't need the +int cloths because he's support, not healing and a warrior won't need a plate with +int). You have good enough CC and most importantly a secondary tank and a support healer.

But this cannot possibly happen if people always think in term of "tank, heal, dps" because the druid, the shaman and the paladin will be forced to encapsulate their class in a single role all the time in PvE. They are forced to choose a specific spec to fit in a specific role: you see druids shapeshifting into a cat at the entrance of the dungeon and never do anything else to maximize damage and truly BE the dps class.

We should consider the archetype of the "support" class and not to force hybrids classes to be dps, heal or tank. Why none wants a feral druid in a raid group? Because he's recruited as a dps / tank AND he can't possibly be a good enough dps or a good enough tank, unless he has amazing equipments. But a feral druid can heal when needed, he can tank an elite and he can do some dps: he's support class.

People rarely understand this and that's the reason why I won't roll a druid, even if I like the class: I won't because almost none would understand my role as a party member.

In this way, it should be possible to play the unpopular spec without problems because the group will always have support-healer and off-tank.

Fury warrior will be a good enough tank and the shadow priest will do good as well... because of the support classes. Also, retribution paladin could do good as well since he's not main-tank nor main-healer. And people will stop saying druids are almost useless.

Druids are almost useless in a game structured for a tank-heal-dps based groups because this model is too simplistic. This understood model forced blizzard to heavily modify their original ideas of "support classes" so that a druid and a paladin could legitimately play as main-tank and main-healer. That possibility was eventually contemplated, but as you know it requires a specific devotion of talents and gear that not many were supposed to invest.

This is just an opinion of course. Nothing more than a suggestion.

LF5M ---> 1war, 1priest, 2dps, 1 support .... instead of the usual "tank/ heal/ dps" where support classes are forced to play a role that is not theirs.

What do you think? What if this game is more profound than we always thought?

I apologize for my bad English grammar.

Edited by Fladrif
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Thing is, most players are always thinking about the easiest and fastest way to do dungeons and raids.
When we talk about the gameplay you're talking about most people will just say "i don't care" or "lol l2p noob" things like that because they simply don't care about other classes, they just want their shiny loot as fast as possible without much effort.
So that's why i believe only a small portion of the big crowd will listen to you.
I do agree with you, i think the classes are more complex that many players think but not everyone thinks like this.

<(^_^)>

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Posted (edited)

Quote

And since the best tank is always the Warrior

This whole scenario is focused on the context of a 5man dungeon, right? In that case, no, this is not necessarily true at all, even if the warrior is prot spec. Personally, I prefer a paladin or a druid as a tank in dungeons.

Quote

and the best healer is always the Priest

Still a questionable claim, again, even if the priest is holy spec. I won't argue with that at the moment, though.

It sounds like you're trying to enforce stricter rules by having two slots of a five-man party be required to be a warrior and a priest, while a hybrid class would be hanging around for "offtanking" or "offhealing".

The traditional roles have become standard because they work. Of course, tradition can lead people to become close-minded, and people can extrapolate from them too far and ignore perhaps better configurations in some circumstances,  but it's not like people just stick to them because they're mean, boring, or stupid. And not only do they work, but they do not go beyond what is necessary. Does a 5man dungeon need more than one tank? Does a 5man dungeon need more than one healer? Usually, no, unless one of those two players aren't good enough to fulfill that role.

In that case, or if disaster strikes (too huge of a pull, someone D/Cs), then there's nothing stopping a "DPS", who also happens to be a hybrid class, to start healing. Tanking on the fly is a bit more difficult however. A "DPS" druid can do it, assuming they know how to. A "DPS" paladin cannot do it unless they, for some reason, have consecration (and it would still be difficult if they did not begin the fight as the tank, because they have no taunt). A "DPS" shaman has similar prerequisite woes, and they too do not have a taunt. But, in a normal scenario that people are prepared for, Druids, Paladins, and yes, even Shamans can tank (5man dungeons). I've even personally seen a warlock do Mauradon! Although, paladins and shamans need a bit more talent and gear investment (easily stashed in bags). In the case of healing, all one needs is healing spells and int/spirit gear.

I believe vanilla WoW class balance is already as profound as you're trying to make it!

The only issues, as I see it, is convincing people that the most popular class/role configurations are not absolute law, and teaching people who play hybrid classes how to aware of their potential. There's an important caveat to that, however. Being flexible requires skill and experience.

All hybrid classes, assuming they are good enough, already fulfill this "support" role, as long as they have the appropriate gear sets on hand. But, more often than not, simply they do not need to deviate from the role that they entered the instance as. I've been a healer, and watching a hybrid start healing people instead of dealing the damage they need to deal when I've got everything under control, is annoying and even more dangerous to the group.

I'm sorry if I misinterpreted your argument.

 

Edited by Boulda
warlock
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Something else not discussed here is gear.  A lot of gear and sets of gear that people have put time into researching is for one function for each of these hybrid classes. I don't think there is a lot of optimized hybrid gear for those classes so that a druid could have high dps and healing, or something along those lines.  I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but it seems like it would be another area that would take a lot of research by the community and education to those classes that those combinations do exist.  I have always liked the idea of hybrid classes being played how they were probably created to be played, but oh well.

On a side note, it's amazing to me how in old vanilla there were a few people who actually did play around with specs and such that weren't necessarily thought  to be viable, such as a pvp survival hunter.  Just blows me away how certain specs were actually viable without the majority of the community really realizing it.

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34 minutes ago, Kelila said:

Something else not discussed here is gear.  A lot of gear and sets of gear that people have put time into researching is for one function for each of these hybrid classes. I don't think there is a lot of optimized hybrid gear for those classes so that a druid could have high dps and healing, or something along those lines.  I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but it seems like it would be another area that would take a lot of research by the community and education to those classes that those combinations do exist.  I have always liked the idea of hybrid classes being played how they were probably created to be played, but oh well.

On a side note, it's amazing to me how in old vanilla there were a few people who actually did play around with specs and such that weren't necessarily thought  to be viable, such as a pvp survival hunter.  Just blows me away how certain specs were actually viable without the majority of the community really realizing it.

another reason why TBC is by far the best expansion. it lifted up those hybrid classes into something of use and were quite demanded in raiding as well. :) 

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Posted (edited)

something I thought of is this:

if the threat cap is 300 dps, and you could bring either a warrior who does 350 dps or a retadin who does 250 dps and can judge crusader, which one would you bring?

if you could bring a warrior who does 350 dps or a feral druid who does 250 dps and can bring LotP for the tanks, who would you bring?

if you could bring a mage who does 350 dps or an elemental shaman who can give WF to the melee dps or tanks or mana spring to the healers or caster dps, who would you bring?

if you could bring another warlock to give blood pact to the melee or a moonkin who could give moonkin aura to the holy paladin group, who would you bring?

 

the threat cap is pretty low in vanilla, at least until the main tank gets thunderfury, but even then, i assume that the threat cap is still relevant, especially in BWL and up

 

i also thought that because of that, rogues and hunters are the best dps in the game because they can wipe their threat, and the pets won't pull aggro without growl anyway

you shouldn't have more than enough warriors to tank and give battle shout to every rogue group, and if you need any backup tanks, it should be dps warriors or any feral druids who happen to be there

you shouldn't have more than 1 mage unless the raid calls for more than 1 polymorph(like MC)

you shouldn't have more warlocks than there are tank groups unless you want everyone to have blood pact for some reason or you're facing garr

 

in fact, I'm gonna hypothetically make a 40 man horde raid group for MC:

 

G1: warrior, druid, hunter, warlock, shaman

G2: warrior, druid, hunter, warlock, shaman

G3: rogue, rogue, warrior, hunter, shaman

G4: rogue, rogue, warrior, hunter, shaman

G5: rogue, rogue, warrior, hunter, shaman

G6: rogue, rogue, warrior, hunter, shaman

G7: druid, mage, mage, mage, shaman

G8: priest, priest, priest, warlock, shaman

2 MT prot warriors

2 OT bear druids, can dps if not needed to offtank, or even heal in a pinch, gives LotP to the main tanks, not specced into improved mark of the wild

6 hunters to do dps and give out trueshot auras, one would use scorpid sting

3 warlocks to give blood pact and banish and curse the boss, all three are specced 0/30/21 for threat reduction and improved blood pact

2 enhancement shamans to give the main tanks improved totems that the resto shamans won't spec into, and can heal in a pinch; if that one guy who wants to be a shaman tank wants to raid with you, he can fill one of those two spots, though he'd be an OT(don't forget about searing totem for dps, always hits the closest target when one is selected until it dies or moves out of range)

8 rogues to do dps, none are specced hemo unless taunt overwrites it, in which case one rogue would be specced hemo

3 dps or prot warriors to give the rogues improved battle shout and offtank in a pinch; all 4 of them are wearing no leather or mail, and have a tank weapon+shield in their bags, and are not specced into deep wounds; if more mobs need to get sundered, they can just hold back after they finish sundering or throw their shield on and change to defensive stance... the warriors can go prot if needed

1 prot warrior who does dps and is the least important offtank; runs a modified prot spec with improved demoralizing shout and improved battle shout, and is the designated user of demoralizing shout

6 resto shamans to heal and give out totems, such as tranquil air and flametongue totem

1 moonkin to give the mages moonkin aura, decurse the raid, use innervate, use bres, and use insect swarm, and use improved thorns on the tanks, and give out improved mark of the wild

3 mages to decurse and polymorph, none are specced into winter's chill

3 healing priests to heal and dispel

 

debuffs: improved demoralizing shout, sunder armor, thunderclap, curse of weakness, scorpid sting, faerie fire, insect swarm, taunt/weapon-specific/mob-specific debuffs/stormstrike/hemo/(if taunt overwrites it)

don't want mages or warlocks pulling aggro, so no curse of shadows or elements

for domo, you can swap out the moonkin for a (pug)mage to poly until you got the gear to do it with 3 polys; by the time the healing shoulders and finkle's lava dredger can drop, you can do it with 3 polys; kite strat is used

 

so basically rogues are the best dps in the game unless you want ranged dps, in which case you want hunters

Edited by Aquane
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I personally learned to value the capabilities of a hybrid class, when we were visiting 5man-instances with less than five people.

 

The reason behind this: 5man-Instances are, generally speaking, too easy for a somewhat experienced 5man-group. You simply don't need to be all too flexible to different situations popping up, because either the damage of the mobs is too low, or the fights do not take long enough to seriously consider anything else than pure damage (most of the time: both).

When i think back of the retail-vanilla-days, i remember myself planning our trips to dungeons ahead by including usable CC-Classes and a Hybrid, that can lift some pressure from tank or healer, given the circumstances (which existed). I'm not sure, if these preparations are not needed anymore, because people are too experienced, or also, because private-server-mechanics make the game too easy for most of the part. Probably a mix of both...

Actually, thinking of it: Currently the Hybrid shines whenever there is too much damage per second on the group/tank. Only then you need a second tank to split up the damage or a second healer to counteract the damage taken in the group. The problem here: Most encounters are more easily handled, when there is more damage dealt, because it indirectly also works as damage-mitigation. This is a development, that continued with BC and so on and rendered the Hybrid even more worthless. The other way around (the path, Blizzard did not take) would have been to extend the duration of encounters, either through limiting of player-damage or through usage of higher monster-hp, making the standard-encounters less of a "reflex and initiative game" and giving them more of a strategical and tactical dimension (a typical tactical decision would be, that the Hybrid exchanges positions with an oom-healer for some time).

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Thank you for your replies!

Thinking about 5men dungeons, we should consider the minimum level required for a smooth run: my suggestion is that with the party-role "support" we could lower the minimum level.

First time I played wow, I was taught by players how to go for a dungeon: look for tank, healer and dps. That was back in 2007, I think. I never questioned the model: it works. Is there something else to say? no...

Blizzard listened to us and made WoW more player-friendly, working at encapsulating each class in the tank-dps-heal model because none understood the value and the role of the support classes. That's how Blizzard works on WoW: by responding to players expectations... Just look at what retail is now. "People don't understand support class, ok just turn them into something different" was what someone said back in the days. Vanilla is the only WoW that needed a total "interpretation": from tbc onward, the game gradually listened to players more and more.

Also, it seems that the end-game doesn't favour the "support" role in term of gears, but that's something Blizzard adapted to the needs of players: players that always reasoned in terms of tank-dps-healer... but on a private server, gear stats could theoretically be modified to restore the support-class in end-game. Would that work? Who knows...

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Works in theory if the fights would be big and complicated but in practice hybrid classes do not work.

There are no big pulls in 5 mans, there are no big pulls in raids either, you CC everything and pretty much DPS a single target.

Probably the only "big" pulls you'll see would be in the <40 man raids like UBRS, ZG, AQ20 but even then the big pulls will have some AOE and 1-2 mobs that need attacking.

So while in theory you might say well this pull needs and extra heal, this one needs and offtank etc. there are simply no situation when this is needed, and if you try to play like that you are less effective since it's better to take a pure-class than a hybrid.

The problem with Vanilla hybrids is that while Blizzard wanted them to be jack of all trades and masters of none at the end they could never come up with gameplay mechanics in which a hybrid class would be needed since it's not really possible.

The only real way of making hybrid classes work is to match their defense/offense/support abilities with the respective pure classes and restrict their diversity with gear and spec requirements, which is exactly what happened from TBC onwards.

Can good players still play hybrids in Vanilla? sure, we had a Druid tank Rag (and fairly early just before BWL was released) for kicks and giggles with like 10K armor, later we had a druid tank Rag as a boomkin for a bit with the mace for kicks and giggles.

I did LBRS 5 and BRD runs with a hunter as a kite and pet tank for kicks and giggles, tanked some 5 mans as a paladin and even DPSed as a Retadin, but in every case this was sub par....

If  you play as a DPS paladin in 5 man you might have some rare case of throwing a heal on the tank or one of the DPS and saving them, but this is an already ohshit moment and things went wrong, there won't be a case where you'll have to go tank or healer for a specific pull and it would actually be better than you DPSing (or simply sitting since unless you had Tier1/Tier2 raid sets and weapons or Rank 10+ PVP gear your DPS would be a joke)...

There is no real way to make gameplay so flexible that classes would have to fulfil more than one role while being less than a pure-role and still be effective.

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Well I'm currently playing through as a Druid on Nost. Plenty of groups where I've jumped into Bear if the tank somehow died, or threw a Regrowth/Rejuv on the tank in a particularly hard hitting boss, then innervating the priest before going back into Cat. (Just cat for leveling ofc.)

Certainly qualifies for me. I don't do it every time of course, but those situations would have been worse/possibly a wipe if I were a pure class instead. Not that it takes anything away from anyone else. Personally I enjoy the versatility.

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30 minutes ago, Adalon said:

Well I'm currently playing through as a Druid on Nost. Plenty of groups where I've jumped into Bear if the tank somehow died, or threw a Regrowth/Rejuv on the tank in a particularly hard hitting boss, then innervating the priest before going back into Cat. (Just cat for leveling ofc.)

Certainly qualifies for me. I don't do it every time of course, but those situations would have been worse/possibly a wipe if I were a pure class instead. Not that it takes anything away from anyone else. Personally I enjoy the versatility.

Exactly this!

This is what makes the druid asome.
Kitty for Dps.
When full mana, trow some heals here and there.
Give the innervate to healer,  or that mage who is doing good (maybe all the) DPS.

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Hybrid classes provide the most powerful buffs (Mark of the Wild, Auras, Totem, etc...) that influence to a certain degree the efficiency of the other classes' pure role. In addition, they have various emergency utilities that come out at the right moment: even if none in the all realm plays the resto druid or the holy pala, those classes would be invited in the raid just for that.

It's not true that the traditional model is more efficient or that it's all we need: to talk of such things, we should rely on empirical datas ( es. running the same dungeons with/without support class and measure the time needed). There's no WoW scientist out there: we're all players.

 

 

6 hours ago, Adalon said:

Well I'm currently playing through as a Druid on Nost. Plenty of groups where I've jumped into Bear if the tank somehow died, or threw a Regrowth/Rejuv on the tank in a particularly hard hitting boss, then innervating the priest before going back into Cat. (Just cat for leveling ofc.)

Certainly qualifies for me. I don't do it every time of course, but those situations would have been worse/possibly a wipe if I were a pure class instead. Not that it takes anything away from anyone else. Personally I enjoy the versatility.

Imho, the only "fault" here is that you were hired as "dps", and not "support". I think that we should always point out that druids/paladins play support: they bring powerful buffs, they're support healers and off-tanks.

You can measure healings and dps with some addons, but you can't really measure versatility, you can't measure the "impact" of the buffs on the group efficiency. As a community, we should change our "forma mentis" and consider paladins, shamans and druids as support classes.

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On 1/6/2017 at 1:46 AM, ycen said:

Exactly this!

This is what makes the druid asome.
Kitty for Dps.
When full mana, trow some heals here and there.
Give the innervate to healer,  or that mage who is doing good (maybe all the) DPS.

 

The problem is this this is only somewhat viable in a SHTF situation which arguably would not have happened if you had a proper pure class setup.

Druid feral DPS in vanilla is pretty darn low compared to say a Rogue, this is considerable since with proper itemization the difference can be as much as 50%...

This means that if you have more DPS output you'll kill things faster meaning that you don't need to help with heales or to pick up the slack because  your MT dies at 10% boss HP because the main healer is OOM...

Hybrid classes are good for SHTF but the shit hits the fan often because you took them on....

 

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5 hours ago, DOGBERT said:

 

[...]

Druid feral DPS in vanilla is pretty darn low compared to say a Rogue, this is considerable since with proper itemization the difference can be as much as 50%...

[...]

 

 

Since the druid is hybrid and plays tank/healer/damage-dealer simultaneously, one couldn't really expect to have a full rogue, a full warrior and a full priest by leveling a single char, isn't it?

 

5 hours ago, DOGBERT said:

 

[...]

This means that if you have more DPS output you'll kill things faster meaning that you don't need to help with heales or to pick up the slack because  your MT dies at 10% boss HP because the main healer is OOM...

Hybrid classes are good for SHTF but the shit hits the fan often because you took them on....

 

 

In my opinion, this is a simplistic conclusion because the druid provides powerful buffs to all the groups and those +stats have an impact on the dps performance of other players as well. In addition, having some additional healings from a druid (or other hybrid classes) could allows more freedom for the priests to spec as he likes the most and to enjoy the game as he pleases.

It's kind a different way to view this game: play to have fun...

 

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5 hours ago, DOGBERT said:

 

The problem is this this is only somewhat viable in a SHTF situation which arguably would not have happened if you had a proper pure class setup.

Druid feral DPS in vanilla is pretty darn low compared to say a Rogue, this is considerable since with proper itemization the difference can be as much as 50%...

This means that if you have more DPS output you'll kill things faster meaning that you don't need to help with heales or to pick up the slack because  your MT dies at 10% boss HP because the main healer is OOM...

Hybrid classes are good for SHTF but the shit hits the fan often because you took them on....

 

SHTF because someone did something silly, not because of what class they play. Its attitudes like this why some dislike the vanilla fanbase.

The DPS is fine for leveling, that's what I'm currently doing.

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What is "SHTF"?

Hybrid classes are a good thing, self-healing tanks op.

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50 minutes ago, ilovecats said:

What is "SHTF"?

 

8 hours ago, DOGBERT said:

... are good for SHTF but the shit hits the fan often because ...

 

 

51 minutes ago, ilovecats said:

Hybrid classes are a good thing, self-healing tanks op.

If I shift from bear to caster I'm not a tank anymore. The only thing I accomplish by doing so is wiping the group/raid.

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4 minutes ago, Murok said:

If I shift from bear to caster I'm not a tank anymore. The only thing I accomplish by doing so is wiping the group/raid.

I was thinking of paladins. Not necessarily in Vanilla.

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It would require the entire end game to be rebalanced, as well as every raid and dungeon to be reworked and for certain the pruning of abilities from some classes and a complete rework of many talent trees.

While the class design for WoW comes from older, better MMO's, Blizzard fucked it up by making the end game so simplistic is was reduced to the binary Tank/Heals/DPS Trinity.

In a lot of 90's game design, MUD and MMO, DPS/Tank/Heal characters had no real CC, no stuns and hardly any buffs, they were brought by classes like mesmers or bards, dedicated support roles. Shaman/Paladin/Druid fell into that role, without a single unique buff strong enough to warrant bringing them as a hybrid when you can have them heal 100% of the time.

It would have been simple enough to fix as well, from a design stand point.

Remove the ability for Warlocks Banish to CC elementals, create a shaman only spell for that.
Remove the ability for Priests to shackle undead, create a paladin only spell for that.
Remove Sap from Rogues, have Druid Sleep be the only CC other than sheep that can affect humanoids.
Remove Fortitude from Priests, adding it to all three classes as a unique health buff.
Redesign raid mechanics, so more trash can be CC'd and more trash has to be CC'd by specialist crowd control characters.

You then rebalance healing somewhat, making it weaker on all three classes, buffing their damage and survivability, and readjusting their sets to take into account all 3 playstyles.

LotRO is about the only game to have pulled it off in recent memory, with Minstrels and Captains being dedicated hybrid support characters.

To do it in WoW, you'd basically need to change the game entirely.

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Threads like this make me miss my enh shammy from pre-WoD retail :(

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13 hours ago, ilovecats said:

I was thinking of paladins.

If you are referring to Lay on Hands: this uses all remaining mana of the Paladin, which is his only source of threat generation. so it would only be viable near the end of a fight when he's got the mob's attention secured. Correct me if I'm wrong but i don't think Paladins have got another instant heal.

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Imho the main problem is not the class per se but the community nowaday. Back then it was common to have a druid tank+a shaman healer in a party for a dungeon. The dungeon was surely harder but it was possible to beat it without too much trouble. In fact, nobody really knew their class and you know what? It was fun. The game is designed to allow bad players, to allow hybrid classes in dungeons and raids (except maybe from AQ and beyond) so why are we discussing about an hybrid class? If it takes 2 hours to complete a dungeon instead of 1 hour and 53 minutes sincerly I don't care.

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20 hours ago, Fladrif said:

 

Since the druid is hybrid and plays tank/healer/damage-dealer simultaneously, one couldn't really expect to have a full rogue, a full warrior and a full priest by leveling a single char, isn't it?

 

 

In my opinion, this is a simplistic conclusion because the druid provides powerful buffs to all the groups and those +stats have an impact on the dps performance of other players as well. In addition, having some additional healings from a druid (or other hybrid classes) could allows more freedom for the priests to spec as he likes the most and to enjoy the game as he pleases.

It's kind a different way to view this game: play to have fun...

 

Fun runs are one thing, doesn't make it efficient, had a druid 10K armor tanking rag in Vanilla proper with SF on Medivh but it was for the lols, the same guy later tanked Rag in a Boomkin for a couple of minutes with Rag's mace ;) But that was way into BWL....

 

The buffs, dps, and any other secondary ability that any of the "hybrid" classes bring in Vanilla was not sufficient to justify taking them over DPS or a tank.

Sure a Druid can somewhat manage to tank some of the level 50+ 5 mans but it takes a lot of effort relative to a warrior, the fact that itemization was beyond horrible for druids, paladins and shamans didn't help either....

Stacking defense as a druid was near impossible, you end up stacking armor and still at very high risk of being 1-2 shotted by many things in entry raids and even 5 man dungeons.

Paladins could at least use the same gear as warriors since they could wear plate but then they also had issues with post Tier 1 content because there wasn't a paladin tanking set and there wasn't that much non-set tanking gear.

Overall you can have fun, you can have fun by having a rogue evasion tank the last few % of a boss when the tank dies,  you can have fun by doing LBRS with a hunter and pet kite tanking all of the bosses and even do the ogre event successfully... But it doesn't mean that this is optimal, ironically since not a single server managed to accurately implement the mechanics so far which meant that classes do too much dps all across the board and there is still something very wrong with how glancing and crushing strikes work it's probably considerably easier to play hybrids on the private servers than it was in vanilla.

It's really going to be interesting to see how viable hybrids are going to be in CF with the adjusted difficulty level.. 

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18 minutes ago, DOGBERT said:

[...]

The buffs, dps, and any other secondary ability that any of the "hybrid" classes bring in Vanilla was not sufficient to justify taking them over DPS or a tank.

[...]

 

This is a questionable statement, imo. There are different kind of pulls and having hybrids in the group means to be flexibile.

It's not about taking druids/paladins/shamans instead of mages, warriors and priests: they are support, they play a different role, they're versatile for a purpose.

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5 minutes ago, Fladrif said:

 

This is a questionable statement, imo. There are different kind of pulls and having hybrids in the group means to be flexibile.

It's not about taking druids/paladins/shamans instead of mages, warriors and priests: they are support, they play a different role, they're versatile for a purpose.

They take the spot of a pure class which makes every pull take longer and be harder, you can bring them and you can play through their deficiencies but they bring absolutly nothing to the table.

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