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Elicas

A Grizzly Situation - Feral Druid 1.12.1 (PvE, tanking and DPS) 

104 posts in this topic
On 9/3/2016 at 9:54 PM, Elicas said:

 

Very well written guide. 

I'm strongly considering going feral on my first alt (since main will be prot warrior, and frankly, have played paladin for way too long to even consider it doing any time soon), but I'm not posting just to share my appreciation for this  nicely written guide but to add one key thing that I did not think you mentioned above.

To be really appreciated in raids that you joined, you should have off-spec (healing) gear inside your backpack. Always remember that you are playing a class, not just a spec that you chose. That means if raid set up requires you to actually stay back and heal, or decurse, you should be ready to do so. Your job as a hybrid in raid should be to strengthen any weak spot and do what you like most to do (tank or dps) only when there are no more important tasks for you to do.

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10 hours ago, Elviss said:

 

To be really appreciated in raids that you joined, you should have off-spec (healing) gear inside your backpack. Always remember that you are playing a class, not just a spec that you chose. That means if raid set up requires you to actually stay back and heal, or decurse, you should be ready to do so. Your job as a hybrid in raid should be to strengthen any weak spot and do what you like most to do (tank or dps) only when there are no more important tasks for you to do.

Couldn't agree more. I mained a druid on retail days and again on Nost...there's no excuse for not having a heal set on you at all times, or a tank (or dps) w/ you if you are MS resto. Honestly, druids should be snagging whatever OS gear they can while leveling. I remember my guild was clearing to Hakkar one night and our OT had to go for an emergency. This was going to be our 2nd full ZG clear and folks were excited to repeat the magic. Fortunately we had a spare healer online so I threw on my tank gear and voila: here's a bear with 7k HP ready to tank. Personally I start acquiring heal gear as low a level as possible, because though I level as feral I never want to have to wait on a dungeon. It's great to be able to tank, dps, or heal 5mans while leveling!

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I don't gather a heal set per se, rather a mana regen set, which is of more use when decursing since no healing is required.

Lots of MP5 gear happens to have +Healing on it however.

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22 hours ago, Elviss said:

Hahaha...yea, let me know when you find dodge on MP5 item xD

With Vanilla itemisation I'm sure there's at least one :P

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Forgive me if repost but warstrife leggings and cloudrunner girdle are good options for legs and waist.

if you hate grinding urok than quickdraw gloves is a nice choice. 

Thank you for great post and advices sensei elicas. 

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Awesome guide. My plan will be Tank and dps with my feral. Love them both and this guide will help alot even if i knew somethings. 

 

 

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On 10/13/2016 at 5:02 PM, floydian said:

Forgive me if repost but warstrife leggings and cloudrunner girdle are good options for legs and waist.

if you hate grinding urok than quickdraw gloves is a nice choice. 

Thank you for great post and advices sensei elicas. 

I believe the reason that Warstrife Leggings isn't on the list is that it was getting rolled back to an older version. It's possible I've made a mistake there, when i originally made the list gear rollbacks was still in discussion.

Cloudrunner is on my Kitty list, but it's quite inferior to Frostbite for tanking.

While quickdraw is a solid choice, Uruk's is so good it's really the only option for the dedicated Druids out there.

Thanks for the kind words!

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I think no matter what class/spec all of us want to play, there will be a spot. Read tons of topics with toxic point of view saying - this spec is rubish that spec/class is garbage...etc etc. The game is for fun for chilling and there is no place foor negative reactions to peoples choices. After so many years ppl are familiar with the mechanics of their preffered class/spec so now many things will not be so hard. I personaly prefer peacefull gameplay, not endless fights for topping dps charts or healing. 

Edited by Triballone
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(169 + (169 * 1.8) * 1.10) + 70 = 590.52 Armour.

This is wrong math here, the correct answer is 573,62. You should have written it like this: (169 + 169*1,8) * 1,1 + 70 = 590.52 Armour

Edited by Nokkius
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got question... since i ll focus on tank gear, i ll choose mark of tyrrany instead of blackhand, dunno about choise of 2nd dps trinket. Seen lot of high DPS list druids on realmplayers with Maelstrom. Any suggestions about it?

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On 11/10/2016 at 7:17 PM, Nokkius said:

(169 + (169 * 1.8) * 1.10) + 70 = 590.52 Armour.

This is wrong math here, the correct answer is 573,62. You should have written it like this: (169 + 169*1,8) * 1,1 + 70 = 590.52 Armour

Every resource I've ever seen regarding Druid armour, from Feenix to Kronos to Nost to the wowwiki and old elitistjerks webcaches, show the formula as;

(((Base armour + (base armour * Bear form bonus)) * Thick Hide) + armour kit/enchant = Total.

You don't multiply both the base armour values by 1.8, you get the base value *1, and the base value multiplier *1.

That would give us (169 + (304.2) * 1.10) = 520.52 +70 = 590.52

If we followed your change that still wouldn't give us 573.62.

(169 + 169 *1.8) = 608.4
608.4 * 1.10 = 669.24
669.24 + 70 = 739.24

You can see from this thread the exact calculations; https://forum.nostalrius.org/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=17968

Basically, for bear form in the above example, it is abbreviated as;

Bear form armour = (100% + 180%) * 1.1 or
(169 * 2.8) *1.1 = 520.52
With the +70 from the enchant that comes out at 590.52, the original number I came to in my guide.

On 11/14/2016 at 5:01 AM, Chilaverde said:

got question... since i ll focus on tank gear, i ll choose mark of tyrrany instead of blackhand, dunno about choise of 2nd dps trinket. Seen lot of high DPS list druids on realmplayers with Maelstrom. Any suggestions about it?

It is very good, since it has no ICD and we attack once every second, we can get almost as many procs as a Rogue or Fury Warrior can get. It's worse than Blackhands for a DPS by a very, very, very small amount (less than 0.1%) but since you will be taking Tyranny it's definitely a viable choice.

Edited by Elicas
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On 16. 11. 2016 at 8:45 PM, Elicas said:

(169 + 169 *1.8) = 608.4
608.4 * 1.10 = 669.24
669.24 + 70 = 739.24

You are wrong here, multiplication has priority over sum, it doesnt matter what your sources are, this is basic math.

(169 + 169 *1.8) = 169 + 304,2 = 473,2

473,2 * 1,1 = 520,52

520,52 + 70 = 590,52

 

Your formula goes like this:

(169 + (169 * 1.8) * 1.10)   = 169 + 304,2 * 1,1 = 169 + 334,62 = 503,62

503,62 + 70 = 573,62

 

If your formula is correct, you should change your original number from 590,52 to 573,62

Edited by Nokkius
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11 hours ago, Nokkius said:

You are wrong here, multiplication has priority over sum, it doesnt matter what your sources are, this is basic math.

(169 + 169 *1.8) = 169 + 304,2 = 473,2

473,2 * 1,1 = 520,52

520,52 + 70 = 590,52

 

Your formula goes like this:

(169 + (169 * 1.8) * 1.10)   = 169 + 304,2 * 1,1 = 169 + 334,62 = 503,62

503,62 + 70 = 573,62

 

If your formula is correct, you should change your original number from 590,52 to 573,62

Ok, I don't pretend to be a genius at formulas, but you're confusing the shit out of me there.

You add 169 to 169*1.8, then times that total by 1.1, then add the 70 for the armour enchant.

(169 + 304.2)*1.1 = 520.52

520.52 + 70 = 590.52

So the long formula would actually look like ((169+(169*1.80))*1.10)+70 I think. Had to look back at some old A level papers to find the correct usage of brackets again :(

The short hand is still (169 * 2.8) *1.1 = 520.52.

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2 hours ago, Elicas said:

((169+(169*1.80))*1.10)+70

Yes this would equal 590,52.

But it doesnt match:  (Base armour + (base armour * Bear form bonus (either 1.8 or 3.6)) * Thick Hide) + armour kit/enchant = Total. You might want to test it in game :)

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23 minutes ago, Nokkius said:

Yes this would equal 590,52.

But it doesnt match:  (Base armour + (base armour * Bear form bonus (either 1.8 or 3.6)) * Thick Hide) + armour kit/enchant = Total. You might want to test it in game :)

That's my fault for my derpy way of writing it and putting together the brackets wrong.

It should be

(((Base armour + (Base armour * Bear form bonus)) * Thick Hide ) + Armour Kit/Enchant.

In game, it adds up the same as my calculations, it's just my writing of it was pretty bad.

I'll go back and correct the guide now.

Thanks for helping!

Edited by Elicas
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Very sound Guide.

However, i would like to suggest a change on 2 aspects regarding speccs. The specc you have currently DPS/Tank feral hybrid, would probably work fine in dungeons, but as offtank is rather not suggestable.

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#0zLVhoZVbxsfbdtV this is what i currently run. The armor value is the impotant part. Rage generation can be neglected for offtank purposes. This hybrid specc is focused heavily on DPS.

My second objection would be regarding the stat priorities:

Hit > STR > AGI > Crit is corect. However, pre Bis up until BWL, Hit > AGI > STR > Crit

80% of the Cats DPS relates to how many crits you can Shred/FB away. Especially early on, relying solemly on pre Bis gear, which is rather Statheavy than secondary stat heavy (Devilsaur and Shoulders excluded).

General Rule of Thumb, are you raid buffed and have more than 33% crit? If yes, STR > AGI, if not AGI > STR.

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On 3/8/2017 at 9:43 PM, Wortgewandt said:

Very sound Guide.

However, i would like to suggest a change on 2 aspects regarding speccs. The specc you have currently DPS/Tank feral hybrid, would probably work fine in dungeons, but as offtank is rather not suggestable.

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#0zLVhoZVbxsfbdtV this is what i currently run. The armor value is the impotant part. Rage generation can be neglected for offtank purposes. This hybrid specc is focused heavily on DPS.

My second objection would be regarding the stat priorities:

Hit > STR > AGI > Crit is corect. However, pre Bis up until BWL, Hit > AGI > STR > Crit

80% of the Cats DPS relates to how many crits you can Shred/FB away. Especially early on, relying solemly on pre Bis gear, which is rather Statheavy than secondary stat heavy (Devilsaur and Shoulders excluded).

General Rule of Thumb, are you raid buffed and have more than 33% crit? If yes, STR > AGI, if not AGI > STR.

Welcome to the forums Wort! Will you be playing here?

First up;

The guide I linked presumed that the feral would be trying to spend more time tanking dungeons rather than tanking raids (such is the realities for most players I think) and so the points were spent to prioritize 'easy' threat for beginners with Feral Instinct + Primal Fury. I'll add your build to the list as a more DPS focused variant however.

Secondly;

I'll amend the stat section appropriately. I must admit it's not something I put much thought into, since I've yet to play on a server where I have had less than ~35% raid buffed crit. I didn't really give much thought to people who are either lesser geared or lesser prepared with full world buffs, I must admit.

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4 hours ago, Elicas said:

Welcome to the forums Wort! Will you be playing here?

First up;

The guide I linked presumed that the feral would be trying to spend more time tanking dungeons rather than tanking raids (such is the realities for most players I think) and so the points were spent to prioritize 'easy' threat for beginners with Feral Instinct + Primal Fury. I'll add your build to the list as a more DPS focused variant however.

Secondly;

I'll amend the stat section appropriately. I must admit it's not something I put much thought into, since I've yet to play on a server where I have had less than ~35% raid buffed crit. I didn't really give much thought to people who are either lesser geared or lesser prepared with full world buffs, I must admit.

I thought about it. At this point there is no hope for Elysium anymore. I just shudder at the thought of having to grind mc/bwl for another 2 years before finally seeing AQ again.
But if I roll here, than most likely not as feral. I've achieved my goal of proving feral can work if you put your mind to it. Next up, is either Ele or Enhancer Shamy!

I must have missed that point, but you're right. It really depends on gear. But then again, Druid has just so many options!

As second point, wanting to feral dps, means having to be utterly buffed. :D

 

 

Edited by Wortgewandt
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37 minutes ago, Wortgewandt said:

I thought about it. At this point there is no hope for Elysium anymore. I just shudder at the thought of having to grind mc/bwl for another 2 years before finally seeing AQ again.

On the plus side, CF is estimating 18 months to 2 years from release until they progress to TBC, so there should in theory be no mass MC/BWL grind again.

Proof will be in the pudding though, since that's a ridiculously ambitious target.

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5 hours ago, Elicas said:

Proof will be in the pudding though, since that's a ridiculously ambitious target.

My problem is, that with TBC, I definitly want to play a druid again O.o I guess I'll just have to level both >_<

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Alright I felt like I finally needed to respond to this topic specifically just so that the community can get a second opinion. In general great guide so I want to start with that. However the talent specs I strongly disagree with. There is far too much emphasis on feral utility for 5 mans, or at least that's what I gather from your replies to some people. That's fine and something people can understand. However the true test of hybrids and their viability and role is in the raiding environment. That should be the spec to look at and aspire to. I can limp my way through any 5 man in any junk spec. Being optimized there is pointless. And for raids as a feral you better be optimized because we are hybrids and we need to prove our worth constantly because there are plenty of pure classes that can overshadow us easily at any time.

Qualifications: I made this spreadsheet (disclamer that the cat and tank values are taken from vanilla sources). I am currently the guild 3rd tank and have been very successful tanking every single boss in the game except for Chromag (simply because of optimization we haven't bothered). My tanking experience is not theoretical for how druids perform; with proper gear druids do just fine as offtanks. My guild has no plans on replacing my role for the AQ content either and I don't expect to have problems there. 

Now to talk about specs I will list my opinion on the same roles you have laid out.

Pure DPS (including powershifting) This build is where you want to do only dps and pick every single dps talent you can have. I do wrath spam on ony phase 2 though it probably doesn't help much. You absolutely must have faerie fire. This debuff is critical and not taking it is crazy for ferals who are trying to justify a raid spot.

Pure Tanking This build is for druids who always are tanking and it limits cat dps options. For that it's probably not ideal because you'd need to be a raid 2nd tank to not be dpsing somewhere. Compared to your tank build: In a raid as a tank you will never cast insect swarms. You also don't have omen of clarity or natural weapons which is a loss of over 10% threat right off the top. Believe me at the end of bwl itemization with no AQ mace you'll be begging for more tps. Not having thick hide is skipping the second most important talent for druid survivability (next to hotw). Lastly demoralizing roar you may use in raids but only if you're doing your own thing with adds. It is less ap debuff than warrior so you are lowest on the list to use this. This generally should not be cast.

DPS/Tanking Hybrid (including powershifting) This build is great for if you want to do a lot of tanking but also want to do a lot of dps. It doesn't sacrifice much for either. The only dps talent you are missing is stronger ferocious bites which isn't a huge percent of dps output. 

Tanking/DPS Hybrid (less powershifting) This build is far more tank focused. Powershifting can happen but without natural shapeshifting you will oom quick so stick to using it in conjunction with fast fights and rune of metamorphosis. Or just plan on using a lot of crowd pummeler if you want a dps boost. This is the build that I'm currently running.

Tanking/Healing Hybrid This build misses many critical dps talents. It doesn't put up good dps numbers so don't try to work around that. However, it can do no compromise tanking and decent healing. Depending on if you expect to tank more or heal more use your last talent point to fit that need.

Healing/Tanking Hybrid This build is more healing focused. It compromises little on the healing side while only compromising health pool on the tank side. If your tank gear is good enough then you can pull this build off and still generally be able to tank most anything in the game, however you wouldn't want to be a dedicated tank anymore. This would be for if you want to tank 5 mans and heal raids and still be an available backup tank. I'm planning on running this build for Naxx.

General thoughts: Why do I almost never put points into primal fury? Because once in the fight I am rarely rage starved. Points can best be used for other threat maxing talents. Bash is a pvp talent ONLY. Read the talent carefully. It increases duration by a second for 2 talent points. If it decreased cooldown it would be far nicer for pve. Even in 5 mans you use bash as an interrupt. It doesn't matter if that interrupt lasts an extra second. Save your points for something else unless you want to use this for pvp.

Important things to keep in mind: Powershifting and all relevant druid buffs are critical for cat dps (faerie fire, leader of the pack). Survivability and threat are critical for bear. Bears get threat from doing damage so any raw damage increase is a direct boost to bear threat.

I hope this helped some aspiring feral druids. It's fun to be a bit unique in a raiding guild and the melee in your group will love you. It's hard because getting the gear can sometimes be frustrating but if you put in the effort you can succeed.

Edited by Taladril
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Hey Tala thanks for the input.

As a whole, this guide was designed around aspiring starter Druids, with a realistic view that the majority of new Ferals will be stuck having to tank in 5 mans due to hybrid/cat prejudice. Nearly all the builds are heavily utility flavoured to enable ease of 5 man tanking, and at least respectable DPS when you're allowed to bring it.

Most Druids who are in a guild who are either

  1. Capable of raid tanking.
  2. Allowed to raid DPS.

already know pretty much all the basics. This was very much a starter guideline for those who are looking to get stuck into the class for the first time with Crestfall. To answer your points/criticisms;

11 hours ago, Taladril said:

Pure DPS (including powershifting) This build is where you want to do only dps and pick every single dps talent you can have. I do wrath spam on ony phase 2 though it probably doesn't help much. You absolutely must have faerie fire. This debuff is critical and not taking it is crazy for ferals who are trying to justify a raid spot.

Good spot. No idea how I missed that off. Edited OP, thanks.

11 hours ago, Taladril said:

Pure Tanking This build is for druids who always are tanking and it limits cat dps options. For that it's probably not ideal because you'd need to be a raid 2nd tank to not be dpsing somewhere. Compared to your tank build: In a raid as a tank you will never cast insect swarms. You also don't have omen of clarity or natural weapons which is a loss of over 10% threat right off the top. Believe me at the end of bwl itemization with no AQ mace you'll be begging for more tps. Not having thick hide is skipping the second most important talent for druid survivability (next to hotw). Lastly demoralizing roar you may use in raids but only if you're doing your own thing with adds. It is less ap debuff than warrior so you are lowest on the list to use this. This generally should not be cast.

I agree that I can't stand this spec personally. However, it was very popular on Feenix for a long time, and it felt wrong of me to do a guide without giving a nod to those who taught me to play, even while I now think they were playing inefficiently/ineffectively.

I'm hoping you're planning on sticking around? Constructive peer criticism is about the only way to perfect these guides, so your input is insanely valuable.

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Unfortunately I'm not planning on sticking around because I don't have time to fully invest in another vanilla project. I also don't like the PTE plans as I don't care for TBC and like the idea of actually having completeness. I know that's counter to MMO but vanilla servers can actually provide it.

For druids that look to go down a feral path I think my approach worked well so I'll share it, though I know some people prefer to be feral all the time, as a druid it is good to embrace the resto too. I started out dungeoning and raiding as a 0/30/21 spec and would do whatever role was needed for the dungeon. Often that was tanking though sometimes it was healing too. Between those I was able to gather up all the healing and tanking gear I needed for preraid bis. In raids I was always healing but it didn't take terribly long for tanking pieces to start trickling my way since you aren't running a lot of tanks. With that I was able to get MC and most of BWL quality items. Also at the same time I did BGs to get my rep up to gather the BIS rep items as well as rank 8 4pc.

Once I was able to get my hands on boots of the shadow flame I knew I finally had a decent amount of +hit to jump into doing feral full time. So at that point I was playing the 4th tank effectively as I'd jump in to tank adds for razer and nef and also did spellbinder tanking (easy mode with druids!). After the reset I switched guilds and now am running as the full time 3rd tank and dps a bit of MC and BWL. Jumping into feral immediately would work I'm sure but by being resto for a bit allowed me to flesh out my resto set nicely so that transitioning back to resto in Naxx will be seamless since to me I don't think that ferals are optimal enough to exist in that environment. They may be good enough if you continue to run as a tank, but I am expecting that our kitty dps is going to lag significantly at that point. Why? We get a lot of AP increases from many upgrades in AQ. Naxx has only 5 upgrades for any ferals total and that includes atiesh. Everyone else is giddy getting bis this and bis that. Ferals get better pants, a couple rings and a trinket, cause you ain't getting atiesh.

So @Elicas about your gear upgrades through expansion... I'm not sure about how crestfall is doing it if they are going the Kronos methodology or the Nost one. I think it's going to be closer to nost. If so your list has a lot of inaccuracies. I'll go down the line and note that this is from memory so I may be off here or there. 

Bear:

Golden mantle of the dawn pattern doesn't come out initially. Not sure when it is but it's very late. AB shoulders are available before them.

BIS legs initially is warstrife legs in brd

Ash covered boots aren't in the game initially. it's a few patches in before they drop from archivist.

Naglering is junk stats for ferals initially. By the time the stats are upgraded you should already have dark iron ring or other better upgrades

Feral idols release with 1.10. You won't see them for a long time.

Kitty:

Mark of fordring - I'd list this as a danger object. Getting the darkmoon neck is better and only costs money. Fordrings seal is a very good healer ring that is hard to replace especially if you're waiting for all your healers to get caut band and elementium.

I know you mention it but blackhand's breadth is another danger object. Choose it or Mark of tyranny. Your list could reflect that better.

Other:

Check your 1.3.0 section and warden staff line. Think that's a typo

MC drops needs medallion of steadfast might and fireproof cloak (the true bis fr resist cloak)

Ony drops head is very good neck for cat and bear fr set

BWL drops need archimtiros' ring for bear and nef head for bear neck or kitty ring and of course dft for bear and cat

ZG for bear upgrade is blooddrenched leggings

 

 

 

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