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Elicas

A Grizzly Situation - Feral Druid 1.12.1 (PvE, tanking and DPS) 

107 posts in this topic

Alright I felt like I finally needed to respond to this topic specifically just so that the community can get a second opinion. In general great guide so I want to start with that. However the talent specs I strongly disagree with. There is far too much emphasis on feral utility for 5 mans, or at least that's what I gather from your replies to some people. That's fine and something people can understand. However the true test of hybrids and their viability and role is in the raiding environment. That should be the spec to look at and aspire to. I can limp my way through any 5 man in any junk spec. Being optimized there is pointless. And for raids as a feral you better be optimized because we are hybrids and we need to prove our worth constantly because there are plenty of pure classes that can overshadow us easily at any time.

Qualifications: I made this spreadsheet (disclamer that the cat and tank values are taken from vanilla sources). I am currently the guild 3rd tank and have been very successful tanking every single boss in the game except for Chromag (simply because of optimization we haven't bothered). My tanking experience is not theoretical for how druids perform; with proper gear druids do just fine as offtanks. My guild has no plans on replacing my role for the AQ content either and I don't expect to have problems there. 

Now to talk about specs I will list my opinion on the same roles you have laid out.

Pure DPS (including powershifting) This build is where you want to do only dps and pick every single dps talent you can have. I do wrath spam on ony phase 2 though it probably doesn't help much. You absolutely must have faerie fire. This debuff is critical and not taking it is crazy for ferals who are trying to justify a raid spot.

Pure Tanking This build is for druids who always are tanking and it limits cat dps options. For that it's probably not ideal because you'd need to be a raid 2nd tank to not be dpsing somewhere. Compared to your tank build: In a raid as a tank you will never cast insect swarms. You also don't have omen of clarity or natural weapons which is a loss of over 10% threat right off the top. Believe me at the end of bwl itemization with no AQ mace you'll be begging for more tps. Not having thick hide is skipping the second most important talent for druid survivability (next to hotw). Lastly demoralizing roar you may use in raids but only if you're doing your own thing with adds. It is less ap debuff than warrior so you are lowest on the list to use this. This generally should not be cast.

DPS/Tanking Hybrid (including powershifting) This build is great for if you want to do a lot of tanking but also want to do a lot of dps. It doesn't sacrifice much for either. The only dps talent you are missing is stronger ferocious bites which isn't a huge percent of dps output. 

Tanking/DPS Hybrid (less powershifting) This build is far more tank focused. Powershifting can happen but without natural shapeshifting you will oom quick so stick to using it in conjunction with fast fights and rune of metamorphosis. Or just plan on using a lot of crowd pummeler if you want a dps boost. This is the build that I'm currently running.

Tanking/Healing Hybrid This build misses many critical dps talents. It doesn't put up good dps numbers so don't try to work around that. However, it can do no compromise tanking and decent healing. Depending on if you expect to tank more or heal more use your last talent point to fit that need.

Healing/Tanking Hybrid This build is more healing focused. It compromises little on the healing side while only compromising health pool on the tank side. If your tank gear is good enough then you can pull this build off and still generally be able to tank most anything in the game, however you wouldn't want to be a dedicated tank anymore. This would be for if you want to tank 5 mans and heal raids and still be an available backup tank. I'm planning on running this build for Naxx.

General thoughts: Why do I almost never put points into primal fury? Because once in the fight I am rarely rage starved. Points can best be used for other threat maxing talents. Bash is a pvp talent ONLY. Read the talent carefully. It increases duration by a second for 2 talent points. If it decreased cooldown it would be far nicer for pve. Even in 5 mans you use bash as an interrupt. It doesn't matter if that interrupt lasts an extra second. Save your points for something else unless you want to use this for pvp.

Important things to keep in mind: Powershifting and all relevant druid buffs are critical for cat dps (faerie fire, leader of the pack). Survivability and threat are critical for bear. Bears get threat from doing damage so any raw damage increase is a direct boost to bear threat.

I hope this helped some aspiring feral druids. It's fun to be a bit unique in a raiding guild and the melee in your group will love you. It's hard because getting the gear can sometimes be frustrating but if you put in the effort you can succeed.

Edited by Taladril
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Hey Tala thanks for the input.

As a whole, this guide was designed around aspiring starter Druids, with a realistic view that the majority of new Ferals will be stuck having to tank in 5 mans due to hybrid/cat prejudice. Nearly all the builds are heavily utility flavoured to enable ease of 5 man tanking, and at least respectable DPS when you're allowed to bring it.

Most Druids who are in a guild who are either

  1. Capable of raid tanking.
  2. Allowed to raid DPS.

already know pretty much all the basics. This was very much a starter guideline for those who are looking to get stuck into the class for the first time with Crestfall. To answer your points/criticisms;

11 hours ago, Taladril said:

Pure DPS (including powershifting) This build is where you want to do only dps and pick every single dps talent you can have. I do wrath spam on ony phase 2 though it probably doesn't help much. You absolutely must have faerie fire. This debuff is critical and not taking it is crazy for ferals who are trying to justify a raid spot.

Good spot. No idea how I missed that off. Edited OP, thanks.

11 hours ago, Taladril said:

Pure Tanking This build is for druids who always are tanking and it limits cat dps options. For that it's probably not ideal because you'd need to be a raid 2nd tank to not be dpsing somewhere. Compared to your tank build: In a raid as a tank you will never cast insect swarms. You also don't have omen of clarity or natural weapons which is a loss of over 10% threat right off the top. Believe me at the end of bwl itemization with no AQ mace you'll be begging for more tps. Not having thick hide is skipping the second most important talent for druid survivability (next to hotw). Lastly demoralizing roar you may use in raids but only if you're doing your own thing with adds. It is less ap debuff than warrior so you are lowest on the list to use this. This generally should not be cast.

I agree that I can't stand this spec personally. However, it was very popular on Feenix for a long time, and it felt wrong of me to do a guide without giving a nod to those who taught me to play, even while I now think they were playing inefficiently/ineffectively.

I'm hoping you're planning on sticking around? Constructive peer criticism is about the only way to perfect these guides, so your input is insanely valuable.

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Unfortunately I'm not planning on sticking around because I don't have time to fully invest in another vanilla project. I also don't like the PTE plans as I don't care for TBC and like the idea of actually having completeness. I know that's counter to MMO but vanilla servers can actually provide it.

For druids that look to go down a feral path I think my approach worked well so I'll share it, though I know some people prefer to be feral all the time, as a druid it is good to embrace the resto too. I started out dungeoning and raiding as a 0/30/21 spec and would do whatever role was needed for the dungeon. Often that was tanking though sometimes it was healing too. Between those I was able to gather up all the healing and tanking gear I needed for preraid bis. In raids I was always healing but it didn't take terribly long for tanking pieces to start trickling my way since you aren't running a lot of tanks. With that I was able to get MC and most of BWL quality items. Also at the same time I did BGs to get my rep up to gather the BIS rep items as well as rank 8 4pc.

Once I was able to get my hands on boots of the shadow flame I knew I finally had a decent amount of +hit to jump into doing feral full time. So at that point I was playing the 4th tank effectively as I'd jump in to tank adds for razer and nef and also did spellbinder tanking (easy mode with druids!). After the reset I switched guilds and now am running as the full time 3rd tank and dps a bit of MC and BWL. Jumping into feral immediately would work I'm sure but by being resto for a bit allowed me to flesh out my resto set nicely so that transitioning back to resto in Naxx will be seamless since to me I don't think that ferals are optimal enough to exist in that environment. They may be good enough if you continue to run as a tank, but I am expecting that our kitty dps is going to lag significantly at that point. Why? We get a lot of AP increases from many upgrades in AQ. Naxx has only 5 upgrades for any ferals total and that includes atiesh. Everyone else is giddy getting bis this and bis that. Ferals get better pants, a couple rings and a trinket, cause you ain't getting atiesh.

So @Elicas about your gear upgrades through expansion... I'm not sure about how crestfall is doing it if they are going the Kronos methodology or the Nost one. I think it's going to be closer to nost. If so your list has a lot of inaccuracies. I'll go down the line and note that this is from memory so I may be off here or there. 

Bear:

Golden mantle of the dawn pattern doesn't come out initially. Not sure when it is but it's very late. AB shoulders are available before them.

BIS legs initially is warstrife legs in brd

Ash covered boots aren't in the game initially. it's a few patches in before they drop from archivist.

Naglering is junk stats for ferals initially. By the time the stats are upgraded you should already have dark iron ring or other better upgrades

Feral idols release with 1.10. You won't see them for a long time.

Kitty:

Mark of fordring - I'd list this as a danger object. Getting the darkmoon neck is better and only costs money. Fordrings seal is a very good healer ring that is hard to replace especially if you're waiting for all your healers to get caut band and elementium.

I know you mention it but blackhand's breadth is another danger object. Choose it or Mark of tyranny. Your list could reflect that better.

Other:

Check your 1.3.0 section and warden staff line. Think that's a typo

MC drops needs medallion of steadfast might and fireproof cloak (the true bis fr resist cloak)

Ony drops head is very good neck for cat and bear fr set

BWL drops need archimtiros' ring for bear and nef head for bear neck or kitty ring and of course dft for bear and cat

ZG for bear upgrade is blooddrenched leggings

 

 

 

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On 3/20/2017 at 7:54 PM, Taladril said:

<snip>

Thanks for the reminder about the gear list, i'll get it sorted at the weekend.

Originally, they was going to go with standard 1.12.1 itemization and release, but with progressive content release, pretty much the standard of Feenix/Kronos/Etc.

Since then they've changed things, and it will be a 50/50 roll back. Essentially, the server will release in a 1.2 state, with Maraudon released but DM closed, with gear stats rolled back to 1.4. DM will release some time after the first MC clear. Then comes BWL, ZG and AQ, with the 1.10 itemization upgrade looking like it will come either with AQ or just after its release. It looks like 1.12.1 will come with Naxx.

They're trying to run on a smaller amount of patches and a condensed timeline (18 months until TBC release after CF release) so things are a bit funky in relation to the Nost/Elysium timeline. Much of the earlier discussion in this thread pre-dates the item rollback decision, which wasn't announced until long after the server was announced.

I keep meaning to get this list updated, I just never seem to get around to it.

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Gear list updated for the recent(ish) changes to rolled back items.

My thanks to @Taladril for the spots.

Edited by Elicas
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Loving this guide very good job @Elicas! 100% sure i will be rolling a druid after reading this. Would be nice if you could add a segment about macro´s and such!

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I get the feeling that we are going to have more ferals on this server than on all retail vanilla servers combined.

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I don't understand why Druids can't have the +damge enchant or use weighstones .  Every other mele  class can utilize them and do, but for Druids it's OP?   People afraid a hybrid might be competitive?

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8 hours ago, DoubleD said:

I don't understand why Druids can't have the +damge enchant or use weighstones .  Every other mele  class can utilize them and do, but for Druids it's OP?   People afraid a hybrid might be competitive?

Because it is not blizzlike, that's not how it worked back in the day. It's a Mangos core bug that has never been ironed out.

The reason they didn't work, is that melee weapons play no factor what so ever in the Druids damage calculation. the game literally just checks them for stats and that is it.

Even with them, we're not competitive for top end DPS except in very fringe cases. It's got nothing to do with Druids being "OP" with them.

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http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#0Zxxxsc0dxVecoco this is the spec im rocking atm and i love it. Even w/o primal fury I feel like I can keep threat easily having 5 points in Feral Instinct. 

I guess you do need to manage your threat more compared to having primal fury? Idk

Edited by Marbo
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One of the best things about Ferals is the sheer amount of ways you can make them work.

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On 10.07.2016 at 1:21 PM, Elicas said:

Removed in protest of the LGN 2.0

Зачем? я даже не знаю что такое LGN ?!

 

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On 2016-07-10 at 0:21 PM, Elicas said:

Removed in protest of the LGN 2.0

All in your right. Sad though because one of the best guides i have read. <3

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It's also available on the Elysium forums, posted by someone without my consent.

/shrug.

Nothing I can do about it, though it's pretty disrespectful.

My guides were all written specifically with this community in mind, not for Elysiums.

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5 hours ago, Elicas said:

It's also available on the Elysium forums, posted by someone without my consent.

/shrug.

Nothing I can do about it, though it's pretty disrespectful.

My guides were all written specifically with this community in mind, not for Elysiums.

I do agree with you. 

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13 hours ago, Elicas said:

It's also available on the Elysium forums, posted by someone without my consent.

/shrug.

Nothing I can do about it, though it's pretty disrespectful.

My guides were all written specifically with this community in mind, not for Elysiums.

I can't agree with you sorry, community benefits so much with your guide and you just delete it. Kinda disrespectful towards community.

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1 hour ago, seefly said:

I can't agree with you sorry, community benefits so much with your guide and you just delete it. Kinda disrespectful towards community.

The community doesn't own my work, not do I owe it to you.

In much the same way Asura doesn't owe us a server actually.

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On 2017-08-23 at 5:32 PM, Elicas said:

The community doesn't own my work, not do I owe it to you.

In much the same way Asura doesn't owe us a server actually.

I do agree with you on this. Even if i am sad they are gone. 

Edited by Sherekhan
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On 25.7.2017 at 7:58 PM, Xaverius said:

u r fag

Well, seem's like Xaverius has Valen's gift of foreseeing.

"MY CF guides are ONLY for CF community, and since Asura sold CF to devil, Ima gunna erase my guide."  Leet. *clap clap clap*

Not to be rude (thou not gonna give a big jeebz if this sounds rude), but your kind of people Elicas, are the sole reason why vanilla scene has, and allways WILL have toxic community. You are a perfect example why there was and allways WILL be " CF vs Ely || CF vs <insert a name here> || Ely vs <again insert a name here> || <insert a name here > vs <and here>" - community wars going on.  A carebear of his own a.r.s.e only, who thinks his/her thoughts & work are for his/her OWN community only, and eeevery other community can go f... themselves.

 

Truly Elicas, I hope you never ever join either Ely or the new CF server/s, the community is going to be a lot more healthy with one less of yourkind.

 

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22 minutes ago, Thothy said:

A carebear of his own a.r.s.e only, who thinks his/her thoughts & work are for his/her OWN community only, and eeevery other community can go f... themselves.

Well, yeah?

Why would I have any considerations for communities i'm not a part of? It's like expecting me to be concerned about Arsenals transfer window issues as a West Ham fan. Not my team, don't care.

23 minutes ago, Thothy said:

Truly Elicas, I hope you never ever join either Ely or the new CF server/s, the community is going to be a lot more healthy with one less of yourkind.

Seen this bandied around a lot over the years. First with people hoping devs would leave the scene so we could finally get the "server we deserve". Most of the old devs are gone, funnily enough we're all still waiting on that one server. Then it was complaining and wishing that the 'leet' raiders would leave, people bitching about Vanguard on Feenix and Kronos, or whining about Nope on Nostalrius/Elysium. When those elite level players leave, it then cheapens the entire raiding race for the whole server.

Every time an elite level player leaves the scene, it is knowledge lost that is harder and harder to find or replace nowadays, especially with so little of the old stuff being archived. There aren't that many of us who are willing to share their knowledge, or to give the time to create these kinds of posts to the community any more.

You don't own my time, nor do you have any right to it.

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6 minutes ago, Elicas said:

Why would I have any considerations for communities i'm not a part of?

Except that you are. A member of Vanilla. A member of Druids. Someone smart said once it's hard to be politically correct; Every time you bow to someone, you end up showing your ass to someone else.

 

7 minutes ago, Elicas said:

Every time an elite level player leaves the scene, it is knowledge lost that is harder and harder to find or replace nowadays,

True. But I'm gonna borrow something another wise man said once: With great power comes great responsibility.

If you have the power, a.k.a in this case long and wide knowledge on vanilla, it's your responsibility to use it wisely, not to be a "Hey, I know but not gonna tell" type guy, OR "Hey, I shared, but won't share anymore" - type a gay. Those both dudes are just arragant a-holes, and truly the community in general would be a lot better never even knowing their existance, learning the information they *might* know theirself from scratch, then to be forced to beg / bribe / tolerate their attitude.

I admit the information on your op was astunning (is that even a word?), but the way you act is a stereotypical example of the 2 gayish peeps mentioned.

 

17 minutes ago, Elicas said:

You don't own my time, nor do you have any right to it.

True. On "juridical standpoint" you have every right to do whatever you do with your work, and there's nothing I or anyone can demand from you; on the moral side you're just being an a-hole teasing the communities you belong into; Vanilla druids worldwide, vanilla in general & bottom level, the CF peeps.

 

 

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There is no all encompassing vanilla community. Never has been never will be. It's divided by server, by server style choice (PvP vs PvE), time zone, etc. Neither is there some mythical buddy group of Druids across all servers.

Funnily enough, there's no responsibility for me to share what I know or what I write either. This popped up today, literary knowledge belongs to no one but the author, and there is no responsibility on said author to share said work beyond which he deems permissible.

The word you are looking for is astounding.

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18 hours ago, Thothy said:

Except that you are. A member of Vanilla. A member of Druids. Someone smart said once it's hard to be politically correct; Every time you bow to someone, you end up showing your ass to someone else.

 

True. But I'm gonna borrow something another wise man said once: With great power comes great responsibility.

If you have the power, a.k.a in this case long and wide knowledge on vanilla, it's your responsibility to use it wisely, not to be a "Hey, I know but not gonna tell" type guy, OR "Hey, I shared, but won't share anymore" - type a gay. Those both dudes are just arragant a-holes, and truly the community in general would be a lot better never even knowing their existance, learning the information they *might* know theirself from scratch, then to be forced to beg / bribe / tolerate their attitude.

I admit the information on your op was astunning (is that even a word?), but the way you act is a stereotypical example of the 2 gayish peeps mentioned.

 

True. On "juridical standpoint" you have every right to do whatever you do with your work, and there's nothing I or anyone can demand from you; on the moral side you're just being an a-hole teasing the communities you belong into; Vanilla druids worldwide, vanilla in general & bottom level, the CF peeps.

 

 

With little respect, what have you done for the vanilla community and otherwise?  

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