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Lilaina

Your ideal WoW

So, I was bored during a lecture today and started daydreaming: What would the (imo) perfect WoW be like? If you could cherry-pick features/design philosophies/themes from different expansions, and mash them togehter into one perfect game, what would it look like? Mine would be something like this:

1. Just one raid difficulty, probably 25man. To move on to the next tier, you need to finish the previous one. No catch-up mechanisms/welfare epics. For extra challenge there should be Ulduar style hardmodes and achievements where you have to do things differently.

2. Immersive vanilla game world: No teleports everywhere, no flying, no phasing/crossrealms/transfers/group finders. Traveling takes time. Leveling is slow.

3. No PvP gear or arenas, just regular and rated BG:s, along with Wintergrasp/Tol Barad style zones. PvP should only be balanced with battlegrounds in mind. Killing opposing faction's leaders should give significant rewards and penalties.

4. All the new features that add stuff to do without taking anything away from others. Achievements, archeology, pet battles(!) etc.

5. MoP style reputation dailies where you get small bits of story and lore every few days. Faction rewards should be profession/vanity items mostly so you don't have to do them all every day.

6. 5 man heroics with difficulty similar to BC/Cata launch. Required to gear up for raids. Each end boss has small chance to drop an epic, rest are blue. Daily and weekly challenges that give emblems.

7. No hero classes. Everyone starts at lvl 1.

8. Different specs should feel different and have niche roles, lots of situational spells. No dualclass. Expensive respeccing, and huge talent trees. PvE rotations more complex than vanilla/BC.

8. MoP/WoD/Legion(?) style encounters and fight mechanics.

9. Legion graphics.

10. Longer expansions (3-5 years)

11. No new hub cities

12. Keep adding stuff to the old world as well and not just the newest continent.

13. No "on the rails" questing; less emphasis on "cinematic" storytelling. More Elite quests, attunements, and other lengthy quest chains (The Defias Brotherhood, Missing Diplomat, Crusader Bridenbrad, It's a secret to Everybody etc.)

14. Big lore characters aren't wasted. Longer expansions would mean that characters like Kael'thas, Lady Vashj, and Deathwing would get actual character development instead on just showing up as raid bosses. In turn they won't have to be resurrected for later expansions when you don't run out of them so quickly.

15. Lots of world bosses, some of them very rare, random, and difficult.

16. Less power creep between expansions. Dunno how to accomplish this.

17. Transmogging with pve/pvp sets only available to those who get them while they're current content.

18. RPG features that add flavour, even if they are also inconvenient: Feeding pets, ammunition, class quests

19. Quality of life improvements that don't make the game easier: Guild banks, target dummies etc.

20. More restrictions on addons so you have to play the game yourself.

/end daydream

 

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4 hours ago, Lilaina said:

More restrictions on addons so you have to play the game yourself.

This. +1. People just look and rely on addons these days and not the game, not thinking for themselves.

Everything else spot on as well, although i do love pvp and the gear rewards too

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DBM and mods like it should never work correctly. Boss mechanics should be survivable without knowing what is happening next; but then you should never know what the boss is going to do next. Boss mechanics should be constantly updated and altered and the AI improved to make defeating them an evolving and often surprising challenge.

Trash packs and patrols patterns, distribution, positions, and compositions should be altered and randomized for each run; enough to make speed runs and avoiding them difficult and uncertain at best.

Introduce more chaos into fighting npc packs so that fighting them is more messy and hybrid classes are often used in multiple roles during any given fight. Make being flexible and adaptable a key feature which should be as viable and useful as min/max.

Edited by JonDoh
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I'd just make it so that undead and humans aren't as alluring as they are right now. Seeing those races make up 90% of the faction populations ticks me off a very little bit.

Think about how many times you've seen an orc warrior. Now think about how many times you've seen an undead rogue. I'm really willing to bet you've seen way more undead rogues than orc warriors. -Warriors-. I'm making quite the strong claim here. Same goes for humans though I can't really pin them on a single class.

Anyway, absolutely no hate and infact lots of love to all the folks out there that are planning on rolling an undead or human. if im gonna see so damn many of you i might as well show you some respect.

Of course there are other things that I'm not quite happy about in the game but this is really the only thing I'm confident enough to change. Also notice how I didn't really specify any actual change. Just something in general that makes them a little less of a player favorite overall. I'm not even sure exactly what these changes should be (although I have a feeling that the undead racial would have to be tweaked).

I've never done any end-game PVE so I can't really talk about the way addons alter it. However, if addons truly affect the experience in ways that are described in the above posts I'd be glad to see that changed. Then again, as I said I've never done any end-game PVE so I am not speaking with certainty on the matter.

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I wish expansions had actually expanded the game instead of making all previous content obsolete and I wish there was never a heavy focus on "catering to wider audiences" aka dumbing down the game and slowly gutting out all aspects that make a MMO what it is. Most of the problems stemmed there and kept alienating the original playerbase.

Vanilla-wise, it would have been nice to see more focus on faction/class/build balance and variety so there's more viable builds, Alliance doesn't dominate the game, etc. Also a different PvP system that doesn't focus on honor grind for epics but actual PvP and thus fun would have been amazing. Every time tangible rewards are added to PvP, it turns into a mess.

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How about not tied in Elysium? 

 

Too soon? ¬¬

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46 minutes ago, Neuf said:

How about not tied in Elysium? 

 

Too soon? ¬¬

https://i.imgflip.com/ve4fu.jpg

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10 hours ago, Lilaina said:

https://i.imgflip.com/ve4fu.jpg

1jdmve.jpg
 

From your points, I agree with 2 (a bit), 3, 7, 8, 12, 13, 14, 16. I would barely call 18 RPG features :P.
Also for me, an option to play hunter without the damn pet. I just want to be a pure marksman ;-;.
 

You have to remember, wow was made right after Warcraft III. That was in 2002. Computer RPGs back then usually very much stemmed from the pen-and-paper ones, still. The design philosophy behind what we now call vanilla shows, despite it's steamlining (Did you know there was a riding proficiency for each type of a mount, like nightsaber riding, for example?).
Back then RPGs weren't about that incremental complex of isntant gratification moments that reward you with flashy trinkets, it was about the roleplaying part. The undertaking. The journey is what matters, not the destination, as they say.
You get your just rewards, but in the end. In some sense, the older RPG design mindset is much like life itself. You cannot just simply arrive and take the spoills, you have to work and toil to lay your claim! You have to be able to say, I came from this and that far, I have defeated these odds and each step of the way has chiseled away the formless outer layer of me so I am able to face with the real tests!
Today it's mostly just ZAP! BOOM! sitthroughthisscene DING! Here, have an item! It has a stat! Stat good! VROOM! nowwesendyouflyingacrosshalfthezoneyouneverexploredanddon'tneedto LOOK A SHINY THING. LOG BACK IN 5 HOURS BYE.

I kinda hate the fact gaming has become mainstream sometimes.

So yeah, add more quests, expand the world. Make it all worth exploring (but don't put a camp every 60 yards, like they did in cata). I think Lordaeron and central Kalimdor (well, most of Kalimdor) were done right in this regard. They felt truly vast.

Yes, I do realize I contributed nearly naught to the topic itself, but oh well. I felt like ranting, it's hard to turn it around.

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35 minutes ago, Xaverius said:

 I would barely call 18 RPG features :P.

---------------

You have to remember, wow was made right after Warcraft III. That was in 2002. Computer RPGs back then usually very much stemmed from the pen-and-paper ones

Sure they are. For instance, If you play an archer, you need to carry arrows. That's part of the role. Missing out on some bag slots and having to restock every now and then might seem inconvenient but that's a trade off for being able to attack from a far without having to cast or use mana for everything. And like you said, these things come from PnP and old computer RPGs and were streamlined for WoW, which was heavily inspired by these games. Having played the original Baldur's Gate for instance, the inventory management in WoW seems laughably easy in comparison. You could only have 20 or 30 arrows per quiver in original BG, if memory serves, 60-90 across all 3 ranged slots. Rest you had to carry in your bags across 6 characters and they were always full. (Modern EE version has 80 per quiver but that's for casual scrubs)

Hunter without pet should indeed have been an option.

Edited by Lilaina
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49 minutes ago, Lilaina said:

Sure they are. For instance, If you play an archer, you need to carry arrows. That's part of the role. Missing out on some bag slots and having to restock every now and then might seem inconvenient but that's a trade off for being able to attack from a far without having to cast or use mana for everything. And like you said, these things come from PnP and old computer RPGs and were streamlined for WoW, which was heavily inspired by these games.

Oh, I let that idea escape me before I could properly conclude it.

It doesn't seem like an RPG element to me, because to me, it's a thing that should've been included from the start and not be considered something special :D.
RPG thing would be, let's say, that nelf priests can only learn priest stuff in Darnassus and related forests, because, you know, the typical Azeroth's priest is a robe wearing individual showcasing some sick light effects and occasionally bashing something with a mace, while the night elf concept of a priest is more "riding a tiger, calling down the stars' fury and shooting arrows at people, also the arrows are on fire".

Also since you mentioned inventory management, Arx Fatalis is the only RPG I played (and quite possible the only 3D RPG of the modern variety) that has empty bottles left over after you use a potion/poison. Oh and you can cook meat by just placing it near a fire in the world, no scripted menu-based cutscenes.
That game is from 2002.
I don't get it. We were supposed to have such immersive worlds these days :v.

Well, there's always the hope Chronicles of Elyria gets it right. Though I'm not a fan of the persistent-even-if-you-log-off character life, but I'd be willing to bite that one :D.

Edited by Xaverius
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Just now, Xaverius said:

Also since you mentioned inventory management, Arx Fatalis is the only RPG I played (and quite possible the only 3D RPG of the modern variety) that has empty bottles left over after you use a
I don't get it. We were supposed to have such immersive worlds these days :v.

Well, there's always the hope Chronicles of Elyria gets it right. Though I'm nto a fan of the persistent-even-if-you-log-off character life, but I'd be willing to bite that one :D.

Never heard of Arx Fatalis, kinda looks like an elder scrolls game.

At least priests got some racial quests and unique spells for them. Even that was taken away later. :P

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36 minutes ago, Lilaina said:

Never heard of Arx Fatalis, kinda looks like an elder scrolls game.

It does, but it isn't. It's also kidna forgotten and underappreciated I feel.
You know Arkane? The studio that made Dishonored and Dark Messiah of Might & Magic? Well, this was their first game.

And it's magical. There is some streamlining present, but it's set out to tell things with its setting, and that worked. Expect no dialogue trees, expect no open world. This is a dungeon crawler, but the dungeon is not your typical lair of evil. See, the background is, that on this world, the sun went out. And the races of the world brokered a peace and moved inside old dwarven mineshafts, forced to coexist to survive. The only contact with the other mines is through the Traveller's Guild, which is a group of extremely brave, somewhat crazy and well-insulated people who move around the deep subzero wasteland of the surface.
But the story here is entirely set in one such mine. There's something like 10 levels, and most of them are inhabited by one of the races, with different architecture, dispositions toward you, and outlook on the world. And it all feels alive. Well, except for the crypts. Talking about crypts, there are dungeons. Yes, there are dungeons inside this dungeon!
And it has the best magic system I've seen. Yes, you first need to invest some points to be able to use magic. But the casting itself is totally skill based: You have runes in this game, and each spell is a combination of runes that you have to draw. With your mouse. In the middle of combat. To make it easier, you can prepare three spells that you can then instantly cast, but that's it. The rest is actual spell casting.
It's dated by today's standards, but still a nice gem of a game. Dark Messiah was mroe or less Arx Fatalix translated into modern era, and with more possibilities to use environment as a part of the combat. Dishonored abides by similar principles, as well as shows that you don't need 60 thousand square feet sandbox with ubisoft-style collectibles shat all over it to be a good game. You can make it a level of a limited size, actually spend some time crafting it, and you assure that it feels like a world, while making it possible for people to actually see and appreciate the things you've done (there's so much work that players will never pay attention to wasted in the sandboxes).
I suppose it didn't really take off (Arx had very positive reviews at the time) because it had to compete with NWN and Morrowind, and, well, NWN is NWN and Morrowind is possibly the most outlandish and arcane 3D RPG ever conceived.
(If you ask me about the 2D ones, possibly Planescape: Torment.)

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A perfect experience would be for me:

1) Dynamic, living world, where mobs are seasonal,  migrate,  fight each other. Resources and weather are also seasonal. Similar to Ryzom. And this combined with;

2) Genetic AI algorithms :-). Ever heard of "Program learns to play super mario world"?. Imagine if the bosses and mobs 'learn to play us' and change their tactics and skill mechanics accordingly to the players skills OVER TIME. The fitness function is actually not complex to describe.

Maybe the AI would find out it's best to 'call for help' or flee in certain situations, like when fighting a party or a stronger than average player. Maybe they will learn how to fight in each season and vs each class. Considering terrain properties. No more stupid AI, it would adapt during fight AND over time. Not only this would take care of addons usage and make boss fights unpredictable and more interesting,  but it could also be adopted on a item quality basis, which would eliminate the concept of having a raid 'on farm'.

 

Genetic AI would also maintain the challenge and generate unforseen and fun encounters. I think this is actually the future of gaming.

Put it in vanilla WoW and I'm sold.

 

 

Edited by loeth
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I'd love an iteration that didn't use the concept of levels for character/npc power at all.  Make it purely a function of firepower via gear and talents/spells.  Let the questing system unlock talents/spell tiers.  One quest tree gives a particular ability.  Upgrades can be purchased with gold or traded for mats based on rep, etc.  I'm not sure if this would make soloing dungeons or old raids more or less viable, but it might be structured in a way that would allow older content to stay relevant.  Like people said about level caps increasing with new xpacs making old content obsolete.  Well, what if there were no levels?  Just HP and damage and armor?

Content seasons.  "Launch" a new server every 2 years or so, refreshing them once Wrath has been out for a while, or moving them to Cata, but basically making each server its own circle of content, so that if somebody wants to do it all again on a different toon/class/faction, well, they can.

The original profession system, defined and interdependent.  Race and class specific quests.  THE LIBERATION OF GNOMEREGAN!

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On 7.2.2017 at 2:06 PM, Lilaina said:

1. Just one raid difficulty, probably 25man.

This would probably be the most important thing for me. So many of the problems that the retail has stem from the fact that there are too many difficulties.

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31 minutes ago, Hermetichedgehog said:

This would probably be the most important thing for me. So many of the problems that the retail has stem from the fact that there are too many difficulties.

But muh Mythic e-peen!

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On 11/02/2017 at 3:44 PM, Humperdink said:

I'd love an iteration that didn't use the concept of levels for character/npc power at all.  Make it purely a function of firepower via gear and talents/spells.  Let the questing system unlock talents/spell tiers.  One quest tree gives a particular ability.  Upgrades can be purchased with gold or traded for mats based on rep, etc.  I'm not sure if this would make soloing dungeons or old raids more or less viable, but it might be structured in a way that would allow older content to stay relevant.  Like people said about level caps increasing with new xpacs making old content obsolete.  Well, what if there were no levels?  Just HP and damage and armor?

Content seasons.  "Launch" a new server every 2 years or so, refreshing them once Wrath has been out for a while, or moving them to Cata, but basically making each server its own circle of content, so that if somebody wants to do it all again on a different toon/class/faction, well, they can.

The original profession system, defined and interdependent.  Race and class specific quests.  THE LIBERATION OF GNOMEREGAN!

Having no levels is probably the genre's pipedream but it's not easy to figure out. If someone does it properly, it will mean that no content is irrelevant and there's always something to do everywhere, that would be glorious.
Regarding WoW though, dunno if anyone remembers alpha screenshots but one of them featured a status panel where you could allocate points to various attributes, like defense, resistances, crit, stamina, etc. I wonder what did they have in mind.

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On 12. 2. 2017 at 10:10 AM, VeloxBanks said:

But muh Mythic e-peen!

I heard mythic is what they call heroics these days. Logically, heroics are what they call normals, and normals are what you put on as a screensaver when you go shopping.

On 11. 2. 2017 at 10:16 AM, loeth said:

A perfect experience would be for me:

1) Dynamic, living world, where mobs are seasonal,  migrate,  fight each other. Resources and weather are also seasonal. Similar to Ryzom. And this combined with;

Now, this is from a different cup, but Chronicles of Elyria promises to have this. Of course, that game is gonna be low-magic low fantasy with emphasis on player-run world (like EVE, but hopefully without gigabajillicorporations).

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12 hours ago, Xaverius said:

Now, this is from a different cup, but Chronicles of Elyria promises to have this. Of course, that game is gonna be low-magic low fantasy with emphasis on player-run world (like EVE, but hopefully without gigabajillicorporations).

CoE sounds good, but sadly no Linux version :-/

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Read a bit about CoE, definitely sounds ambitious. I somehow doubt all the features that they advertise will make it to launch, kinda like what happened to No Man's Sky.

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