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pvescrub

Griefing policies

37 posts in this topic

I just came across a topic on Elysium forums, where people have apparently formed cartels monopolizing devilsaur leather farming. There was even screenshots of said cartels selling gold to gold sellers for real money. Not only that, on PVP servers the cartels have alliance and horde players working together to keep their hold on the market.

PVP is PVP, of course, but let's say what is going on Elysium happens here too, same faction people griefing others trying to farm. Mage chain sheeping a devilsaur someone has managed to tag, until player either resets combat or dies. 

What is the policy here regarding this kind of stuff?

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What you are describing is just player driven functions of 1.12.x gameplay. I fail to see how this is griefing, of course, you could always make the Devilsaurs immune to polymorph since that seems to be the issue here.

Edited by Soyoen
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But it fits the definition of griefing.

I'm not saying devilsaurs should be immune. What I'm saying people/guilds who grief others should be reported and then potentially banned.

Just because game mechanics allow one to do it, shouldn't mean it has to be allowed. Blizzard didn't apparently allow this.

Especially the gold selling part should net a permanent ban.

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If it's opposite faction then I think pretty much anything is fair game.  Kill them if you're on pvp, and if you're on pve get a buddy to counter sheep or otherwise harass.  If it's same faction, then yes I think it counts as griefing and there should be measures to prevent it.  However, I can see people arguing that it isn't Blizzlike.  My counter is that Blizz would have done something about it, much like the devs' reasoning for fixing DM:North hunter solo farm.

Hopefully though, the dev's have strong measures to prevent gold selling (anti-botting, DM:N changes, Chinese VPN bans, permanent account bans for selling or buying, etc.).  If they do, I suspect that will curb a lot of the mafia-style behavior as there is a lot less incentive for pure in-game gold vs. real world money.

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I can't say this is permanently the stance or exactly how it will be but I'm sure it will still be up for discussion.  I remember seeing darkrasp mention that any "griefing" acts against your own faction would be banned. This was in reference to alliance players throwing naked level 1's at Kazzak to cause him to regain health when an alliance guild has the tag on the boss already.  It's a touchy subject but I think same faction griefing on a PvE server would not be tolerated at all. However I think for PvP, the answer might just be "get a group of the opposite faction together and kill them".

I don't forsee any big change will go into this to try to avoid it or prevent it because as @Soyoensaid, it seems like a lot of this is just how vanilla gameplay is.

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7 hours ago, pvescrub said:

I just came across a topic on Elysium forums, where people have apparently formed cartels monopolizing devilsaur leather farming. There was even screenshots of said cartels selling gold to gold sellers for real money. Not only that, on PVP servers the cartels have alliance and horde players working together to keep their hold on the market.

Cooperating with other players shouldn't be a punishable offense imo. :P

Selling gold should obviously get the people in question banned.

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PVE server they can consider different rules but it's still gameplay mechanics (polymorph) and there are counter plays to this (dots, bleeds, fast weapons and in general kiting etc) and "outplaying" your opponent.

On PVP server you collaborate for the control of the Crater. Better organization wins.

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Only the PvE server needs anti-griefing rules, and then only because we can't kill griefers.

Alliance have teamed up with some Horde and wont let you kill devilsaurs? Team up with some other people, gank the living shit out of them, crush the cartels, see them driven before you and listen to the lamentation of their marketshares.

Emergent gameplay that can be countered should never be punished.

Edited by Elicas
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1 minute ago, Elicas said:

Only the PvP server needs anti-griefing rules, and then only because we can't kill griefers.

Alliance have teamed up with some Horde and wont let you kill devilsaurs? Team up with some other people, gank the living shit out of them, crush the cartels, see them driven before you and listen to the lamentation of their marketshares.

Emergent gameplay that can be countered should never be punished.

Aperently you can sheep the devilsaur. And what the cartel do is fucking up ther own fraction by sheeping the devilsaur etc. 

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This isn't about game mechanics.    This is about organized structure for profit.

On Nostalrius - the Cartel ruled the Un'Goro crater.  They sat heavily on Black Lotus farming and Devilsaur Leather skinning.   You came to gather these resources - you'd die.

Now - one could bring help.  Very true.  And it was your only option -> Bring more friends.  Hope you are swift and precise.  Because if you fumbled just a bit, you'd see the Cartel "power" nearly instant.

This isn't just 2 or 3 people having fun.  They are a cross-faction army.

You come alone -> They are 2 or 3 watching you. 

You come as a group -> They'll have 2 groups standing by.

You get the upper hand ->  Get ready to face an entire Raid Group.

They will not stop, to protect their resource of income.  And this is the entire point.  They profit from this.  Supply gold sellers, with gold.  Hell, they've even been rumoured to hire entire assassination squads, to deal with people they do not like.  To protect their income.

Nostalrius did very little to stop this, so it just went on and on and on.   Until Nostalrius shut down.

Now the Cartel roams Elysium.   Elysium has tried to prevent some of the griefing - but we all know how well Elysium is handling themselves.  They find it more amusing to post pictures of Elementals and happy Night Elves, than actually be online and support the players.

Once Elysium kills it own servers, by failing miserably at protecting their players - this Cartel will move on.   Most likely they will expand to CrestFall servers, way sooner than that - because, obviously, this is a very profitable resource of income.

As a long time player of WoW.  A Vanilla/TBC loving individual.  A person interested in gaming on servers of quality and not quantity - I really hope CrestFall is openly listening to warnings.   Because this is more shady than what has already been exposed.

- Anonymous.

Ps. Yes - this is my first post.  Hopefully one of many.  I'm not trolling.  I'm not looking to fuel the fire.   I'm here to stay.

Edited by Anonymous
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9 minutes ago, Anonymous said:

Hell, they've even been rumoured to hire entire assassination squads, to deal with people they do not like.  To protect their income.

That sounds kinda cool actually. I wish WoW had more EVE online style intrigue. :P

Admittedly I didn't play on nost long enough to see this cartel in action and I don't play on Elysium, but to me this kind of thing sounds perfectly fine, as long as any links to gold selling are investigated.

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One of the times I wish Sliprry hadn't got himself banned, since he had good knowledge of the facts on the ground.

The vast majority of the two cartels running on Nost were EU/NA. The chinks barely got a look in, and it had nothing to do with gold selling.

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3 minutes ago, Elicas said:

 and it had nothing to do with gold selling.

Maybe I misunderstand your post, but gold selling is a BIG part of it.

I think this small picture, tells it's own tale.

RGmNMwB.jpg

 

Ps. The Anonymous related post on the image, is not related to my username.  I apologize for any confusion it may cause.

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I'd definitely be down for a PvP guild named <DEA> or something similar that hunt these punks down and camp them, but probably not enough individual incentive for it to successfully happen 

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1 hour ago, Anonymous said:

Maybe I misunderstand your post, but gold selling is a BIG part of it.

I think this small picture, tells it's own tale.

RGmNMwB.jpg

 

Ps. The Anonymous related post on the image, is not related to my username.  I apologize for any confusion it may cause.

That is exclusively Cartel players included in that spreadsheet, not the original Mafia which the Cartel imitated (they came a long after, closer to the server's shutdown - around early 2016).

Do not confuse the two "factions" - Mafia and Cartel hated each other and fought for the control of the Crater.

 

Edited by Ciar
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12 minutes ago, Ciar said:

That is exclusively Cartel players included in that spreadsheet, not the original Mafia which the Cartel imitated (they came a long after, closer to the server's shutdown - around early 2016).

Do not confuse the two "factions" - Mafia and Cartel hated each other and fought for the control of the Crater.

 

A solid point, indeed.

However, my post was just an illustration of the profit involved in this.

But you are right.  Work methods were the same, the two groups are not.

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In my opinion this should not be punishable. As others have said, this is just player cooperation.

Gold selling technically isn't related in any way. Just because someone formed an alliance between two guilds of both factions doesn't mean that someone is doing it to sell gold. Gold selling should, quite obviously, be fought. Legitimate player cooperation that in itself has nothing to do with the act of gold selling until proven otherwise shouldn't be.

If you see such a group, one made up of players from both factions, then you too should form one such group as well. If you decide to try and stop them at all. Or you could join them. I know I would certainly love to get behind something like that. If someone is truly passionate about it they can try to stop me. Banning it is not the way, nor is it at all necessary.

People who want this kind of thing to be banned or otherwise disallowed just lack an open mind. No offence.

Oh, and of course, if it truly is recognized by the majority of players as an exploit, chain sheeping (however that works) should be taken care of in whatever way is decided to be the best. I will not argue about that as I lack the knowledge about the mechanic behind the supposed issue.

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5 hours ago, Elicas said:

Only the PvP server needs anti-griefing rules, and then only because we can't kill griefers.

Alliance have teamed up with some Horde and wont let you kill devilsaurs? Team up with some other people, gank the living shit out of them, crush the cartels, see them driven before you and listen to the lamentation of their marketshares.

Emergent gameplay that can be countered should never be punished.

So you guys really think "player cooperation" or "emergent game play" to grief others is just fine? And same people are worried the community here will be tainted by Elysium players. And that this taint would turn off people from the server. Oh boy.

How fun do you think it will be to be the target of a massive griefing operation while just trying to play a bit with friends? There can only be one largest guild on the server anyway. And I'm willing to bet it won't be the one policing this stuff, as there is no real profit in it. Besides, the cartel/mafia people already have their groups and organization up. And they actually have something more tangible to win in this.

It baffles me how PVP server would be the one needing anti-griefing rules? That is exactly where you can kill the griefers, should they be of opposing faction. And they will be. But they also will be your faction at the same time, so in the end there is nothing you can do about it. Just like it will be on a PVE server, except there the faction matters even less, if possible. Heck, I'd say cross-faction collusion should be a bannable offense, especially on PVP servers. 

I'd love to have an official stance on this from @Darkrasp and @Asura, because it kind of is a big deal. Sets a tone for quite a lot of things. As a lot of Vanilla things have been defended in the spirit of things being Blizzlike, here people seem to gladly depart from that track. There is nothing Blizzlike about allowing this sort of griefing to go on, Blizzard did crack down on it, and I never saw it getting out of hand on any of the servers I played on during retail vanilla. 

Competing for tagging the spawns is fine, even when grouped with friends. That sure is a Vanilla thing. It becomes griefing when you lose a tag-fight and make sure the person who won cannot kill the mob. And you do this over and over and over again. With massive groups. With cross-faction groups (PVP servers mainly).

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My bad, I meant only the PvE server, not the PvP server.

And yes, player cooperation and emergent gameplay to grief other players is 100% perfectly fine and legal as long as there is something you can do about it in game.

Are you really asking for Admin involvement with open world PvP? Lol, grow a pair, team up, gank the fuckers back.

Or roll on the PvE server with the rest of us carebears if you don't like it. Leave the PvPers to PvP.

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20 minutes ago, Elicas said:

My bad, I meant only the PvE server, not the PvP server.

And yes, player cooperation and emergent gameplay to grief other players is 100% perfectly fine and legal as long as there is something you can do about it in game.

Are you really asking for Admin involvement with open world PvP? Lol, grow a pair, team up, gank the fuckers back.

Or roll on the PvE server with the rest of us carebears if you don't like it. Leave the PvPers to PvP.

Nope, I'm asking for Blizzlike action on griefing. I won't be playing on a PVP server. I'm asking about their stance on the issue for both PVE and PVP servers though.

This griefing can and will be done on PVE servers.

This griefing can and will be done on PVP servers too. These massive groups work cross-faction, so you and your buddies will just melt away in the sun if you go against them. It's not a matter of "growing a pair".

Oh, and if by saying "as long as there is something you can do about it in game" you mean not participating in the activity or quiting, then yeah, there is something you can do.

Edited by pvescrub
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7 minutes ago, pvescrub said:

Oh, and if by saying "as long as there is something you can do about it in game" you mean not participating in the activity or quiting, then yeah, there is something you can do.

If you can fight against it, in any way, then yes, there is something you can do.

Strictly speaking for the PvE server, they can't even kill you or drive you out of the area. Forming cartels and player run mafias to control resources have never been a bannable offence, and for as much as people have moaned about it, i've never once seen any proof of blizzard banning people for sheeping other peoples targets. Shit, it's something I've seen regularly done between groups competing over Elite quest kills trying to wipe the other party so you can monopolise the quest for your own team. Prove it was bannable/actionable by Blizzard and then they have cause to step in, otherwise, it's blizzlike game behaviour, deal with it.

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This is one of the things that you can either handle, be it by ignoring it or taking part in it in some way, or you go look for another game to play. Sorry.

Yes, it's shitty if you want to "play a bit with friends" and not really get into the game all that much. As it is Vanilla WoW needs a healthy dose of dedication in order to be fully enjoyed.

28 minutes ago, pvescrub said:

There can only be one largest guild on the server anyway.

Umm, yes. One largest. If there is a largest. Who is to say there won't be another guild of the same size that fights against these kinds of cartels? And yes, in a community as varied as this one there is someone willing to do it simply for the glory and renown.

As it's been said, if you see such a thing going down you either deal with it or you fight fire with fire, as you absolutely can if you put enough effort into it.

And then in the end maybe a single group will have a hold on the devilsaur trade. Maybe they'll decide the prices and maybe they'll keep beating on the economy of the realm until some other group rises up and fixes things. Maybe we'll have to suffer through a few months where the economy is completely bollocksed, again untill someone decides to fix things. To some that's a game over. To me it's just part of the game. Yes, many servers have bad economies due to gold sellers and all kinds of similar cancer running rampant without moderation. However (as it's been said countless times before, here and elsewhere) I think that these kinds of things that can be prevented by players should be allowed. It would really add to the community aspect of the game. Yes, that part isn't all about having a jolly good time doing instances with capital gents while sipping tea and nibbling crumpets. Sometimes you gotta add some bark, keep it interesting, have some rivalries and post some banter. All in good fun if you know how to do it.

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5 minutes ago, Elicas said:

If you can fight against it, in any way, then yes, there is something you can do.

Strictly speaking for the PvE server, they can't even kill you or drive you out of the area. Forming cartels and player run mafias to control resources have never been a bannable offence, and for as much as people have moaned about it, i've never once seen any proof of blizzard banning people for sheeping other peoples targets. Shit, it's something I've seen regularly done between groups competing over Elite quest kills trying to wipe the other party so you can monopolise the quest for your own team. Prove it was bannable/actionable by Blizzard and then they have cause to step in, otherwise, it's blizzlike game behaviour, deal with it.

That's an interesting topic, because I've definitely done that on Elysium PvE to other players, and they always say "I screenshotted" "that's griefing" "enjoy your ban" and I haven't been banned yet.  And I was reading old blizzard forums and it doesn't look like it was considered griefing.  It was just part of the game.  Now I'm sure if I was going to a low level zone and sheeping every quest mob a player was trying to grab, that would be an entirely different issue cause it's actually directly impeding the progress of a player. Even then, on PvP I'm sure Blizzard might argue "have someone come kill them".  The idea of griefing in this way is probably only a PvE issue and I think it'll only be bannable in extreme cases.

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http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Harassment

Other types

Physical harassment
  • Stealing resource nodes, kill stealing, training, etc.
  • Abusing game mechanics/exploiting or disrupting zones/areas to cause another player grief or distress.
Ongoing Harassment
  • Harassment takes many forms and the intent behind the communication is important. Ongoing harassment is repeatedly targeting a specific player with harassment, either physical or verbal.

 

And I'm fully aware of Blizzard liking a PVP solution to a PVP problem. However, we are also talking about PVE realms here, and cases where groups work cross-faction, which in and of itself was against rules.

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