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Negrodamus

Feral (Cat) PvE Trinkets

29 posts in this topic

While doing my research, there appears to be some inconsistencies for what trinkets to use for cat DPS in PvE. So I'm wondering if someone can clear this up and is there a list out there that has dps Trinkets listed from worst to best for damage. 

Also does Hand of justice give us an extra hit in cat form? Is it worth it for feral kitties? 

And how good is Darkmoon Card: Maelstrom? Is it truly Bis forever? Anyone have numbers to show for this claim I often hear(or if there's any truth to it?)?

How bad will my dps be if I don't take blackhand's breath? I planned on taking Mark of Tryanny instead for tanking purposes to OT if needed in raids. 

Thanks!

Edited by Negrodamus
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There's no such thing as feral dps in vanilla, you can offtank but that's about it.

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First up, for kitty gearing take a look at this.

As for Trinkets specifically;

The reason on hit trinkets are so strong for Druids is how often we attack. Once a second white attacks, with a yellow attack once every three seconds if you are powershifting, gives us almost as many attacks per minute as a warrior or a rogue. Looking at each with Dal'Rends set (the usual BiS pre-raid starter set for all Rogues/Warriors) you get;

Warrior

Presuming that 50% of their attacks are made under Flurry (which would be super high, but it makes the math nice and simple);

MH 30/2.8 = 10.71 swings

MH 30/1.96 = 15.31 swings

OH 30/1.8 = 16.66 swings

OH 30/1.26 = 23.80 swings

Add up the full swing cycles (since only completed hits can give procs) and you get 64 auto attacks in a minute, with 30 special attacks added (easy with hamstring spam) that gives you around 94 attacks per minute.

Rogue

Presuming a 100% uptime on Slice & Dice and using Blade Flurry;

MH 45/1.96 = 22.95

MH 15/1.4 = 10.71

OH 45/1.26 = 35.71

OH 15/0.9 = 16.66

Rogues should regen exactly 600 energy a minute (20 every 2 seconds, same as a Druid), which allows for 700 energy use in the first minute with the standard rotation;

1x SS, SND, 5x SS, SND, 5x SS, EVI, 4x SS (time up)

40, 25, 200, 25, 200, 35, 160

That gives the standard Combat Sword Rogue 16 special attacks per minute without using Thistle Tea.

With 83 auto attacks and 16 special attacks (99 total) you would expect ~5 attacks to proc an extra attack from Sword Specialization, giving Rogues a grand total of ~104 attacks per minute.

Druid

60/1 = 60 swings per minute - time spent shifted = ~48-52 swings per minute.

If you go full tryhard and farm a MCP for every boss attempt, you can get this to 60/.5 = 120 swings per minute - time shifted = ~ 96-100 swings per minute.

Druids should regen exactly 600 energy a minute (20 every 2 seconds, same as a Rogue), which allows for 700 energy use per minute without powershifting.

We never use rip, and the standard rotation is 5x Shred 1x FB. Taking Improved Shred to get Shred down to 48 energy, 700 energy gives us that rotation exactly 2.5 times.

5x Shred, FB, 5x Shred, FB, 3x Shred (time up)

240, 35, 240, 35, 144

Add up the full swing cycles (since only completed hits can give procs) and you get 52 auto attacks in a minute, with 15 special attacks added that gives you ~67 attacks per minute without shifting.

When using MCP, it gives you ~115 attacks per minute without shifting.

When going full tryhard with shifting (multiply special attacks by around 1.75 per minute) and using 2x MCP on use effect, you get around ~126 attacks per minute.

PPM

What does all this math mean? With an on proc PPM trinket like Maelstrom or Wymthalaks Heart, it changes how likely you are to get a proc depending on how fast you attacks and how many hits you get.

The Proc Per Hit chance formula is: Weapon Speed / (60/PPM)

If we say that a trinket has the same PPM as Crusader (1 PPM), and we look at each of the usual weapon speeds and say each player does 15 special attacks per minute, we get;

3.8/(60/1) = 0.063% to PPH - 15 swings per minute so PPH is 1/15 - including special attacks, actual PPM is 30/15 = 2 procs per minute.

2.4/(60/1) = 0.04% to PPH - 25 swings per minute so PPH is 1/25 - including special attacks, actual PPM is 40/25 = 1.6 procs per minute.

1.8/(60/1) = 0.03% to PPH - 33 swings per minute so PPH is 1/33 - including special attacks, actual PPM is 48/33 = 1.45 procs per minute.

1.4/(60/1) = 0.023% to PPH - 42 swings per minute so PPH is 1/42 - including special attacks, actual PPM is 55/42 = 1.31 procs per minute.

1.0/(60/1) = 0.016% to PPH - 60 swings per minute so PPH is 1/60 - including special attacks, actual PPM is 75/60 = 1.25 procs per minute.

What this shows is that the faster you attack, the less chance you have to proc a PPM trinket/ability. This is balanced by the fact you make more attacks.

Druid Trinkets

Now, with 14AP = 1DPS and 1% crit = 1DPS we have;

Drake Fang Talisman is top tier BiS forever. It's a flat 4dps to white damage increase plus 2% hit.

Slayer's Crest is a flat 4.57dps increase to white damage, with a 18.57dps increase during the on use effect.

Hand of Justice is a flat 1.42dps increase to white damage, with a 2% chance per hit to gain an extra auto attack. This can proc in feral form.

Earthstrike is a 20dps increase to white damage during the on use effect.

Heart of Wyrmthalak and Darkmoon Card: Maelstrom are much harder to quantify at the moment, since I don't know what value @Darkrasp has come to for their PPM. From old sources, they have never been categorized or given a number every has agreed on.

Blackhand's Breadth is a flat 2dps increase on white damage, helps adjust the combat table in our favour, and can significantly help our dps via interaction with Blood Frenzy.

We know they aren't a static chance on hit to proc, since any items using a static percentage have the percentage in the tooltip, same as Hand of Justice, which means they have to be PPM. We know from vanilla sources both can hit for more than the damage shown on the card (possibly scaling with spellpower?) and we know both can be partially or fully resisted by both players and NPC's (Fire and Nature damage, respectively).

If Dark can give us what the PPM is, i'll be able to sum the math on PPM and give a cleaner answer. However that's unlikely, since I doubt he'd want to make such gearing choices so public.

Essentially, both are solid pre-raid items. Wyrmthalak is mostly useless in MC and BWL, but may have use in AQ when Mages move to Fire and you have the Scorch debuff to work with, depending on what other trinkets you have access to. Maelstrom can be amazing in BWL on the Dragonkin and Chrommagus (Vanilla sources show hits of over 1000 damage on proc vs Chromm), but limited use anywhere else.

Tagging @Soyoen for input on Maelstrom and Wyrmthalak, since he also did a lot of work looking up their old stats on Nostalrius.

Edited by Elicas
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1 hour ago, Elicas said:

Tagging @Soyoen for input on Maelstrom

Should stay around 11dps +/-2 depending on amount of attacks + instant attacks. (Can obv differ a bit for the dudus)

Edited by Soyoen
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20 minutes ago, Soyoen said:

Should stay around 11dps +/-2 depending on amount of attacks + instant attacks. (Can obv differ a bit for the dudus)

Did you ever find a firm PPM number for it?

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2 hours ago, Elicas said:
2 hours ago, Soyoen said:

Should stay around 11dps +/-2 depending on amount of attacks + instant attacks. (Can obv differ a bit for the dudus)

Did you ever find a firm PPM number for it?

Not one that pleases the data for daggers, one handers & two handers. I used normalization speed in the sheet with daggers/onehanders seperated which matched what was available at a ~1.1 ppm rate or so.

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7 minutes ago, Soyoen said:

Not one that pleases the data for daggers, one handers & two handers. I used normalization speed in the sheet with daggers/onehanders seperated which matched what was available at a ~1.1 ppm rate or so.

Sensible. Pretty much all the old commentary I've found on it is wild speculation.

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18 hours ago, Negrodamus said:

Come on fam, not looking for troll answers. 

Nobody is trolling you, I just stated a fact. Feral dps wasn't a raid-viable thing until WotLK. If you want it for 5 mans or just playing make-believe then that's fine and I won't butt-in anymore.

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8 minutes ago, Terpsichore said:

Nobody is trolling you, I just stated a fact. Feral dps wasn't a raid-viable thing until WotLK. If you want it for 5 mans or just playing make-believe then that's fine and I won't butt-in anymore.

I'd hate to prove you wrong, but....

You know where an average of 531.7 dps in BWL puts him?

35.3 dps ahead of the closest Shadow Priest.
#22 on the top average Mage DPS list.
#5 on the top average Warlock DPS list.
355.3 DPS ahead of the closest Ret Paladin.
371.5 DPS ahead of the closest Shaman.
#5 on the top average Hunter DPS list.
#87 on the top average Rogue DPS list.
#54 on the top average Warrior DPS list.

You really think everyone on those pure DPS class lists lower than his ranking aren't raid viable?

Viable doesn't mean optimal, I doubt anyone argues that. Feral is certainly a raid viable spec though, if you are willing to put the effort in.

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That's so bad it's not even funny. On average he's doing considerably less dps than any pure damage dealer with a similar level of gear. Shadow priests and hunters are valued for their utility, not dps and ret paladins/enh shamans (besides a hybrid resto/enh spec with improved totems and Nightfall in a melee dps group) are just plain deadweight unless the content is already on farm. Sure you bring LotP but its utility diminishes exponentially as melees are able to achieve 40-50% crit even without it.

BWL also isn't a good test scenario as mages are doing only a fraction of what they're able to due to being pigeonholed into frost spec, and warlocks are crippled by the abundant shadow resistances. Once you hit AQ40, the gap becomes an endless abyss, with all pure damage dealers easily pushing over the 1k dps mark, fury warriors dishing out so much damage that tanks can hardly hold the aggro, fire mages fighting for ignites, rogues always sitting on top and warlocks becoming the kings of effortless dps, hell, even hunters are able to push 1k in some situations. All of this happens while feral druids are stuck with the same old gear as there are barely any upgrades worth mentioning and those usually go to fury warriors anyway.

I'm an avid druid player myself but I'm aware of their limitations. Going out of your way to chase a fantasy while crippling your guild is pretty disrespectful in my eyes, you're choosing to play something largely inferior while the rest of your guild is trying to pull their weight. Feral-resto hybrids with hybrid gear are pretty amazing for solo PvP though and you can get the gear to enable those builds by raiding as resto and collecting the hybrid pieces nobody wants to begin with, you get your fun without crippling the guild. You also have the perk of being able to raid with a hybrid build that's PvP viable as you don't really need anything below Swiftmend on the resto side.

If you want some feral fun in raids, you can carry a tanking set and offtank when needed, although that stops working once you hit Naxxramas as stuff simply hits too hard.

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1 hour ago, Terpsichore said:

That's so bad it's not even funny. On average he's doing considerably less dps than any pure damage dealer with a similar level of gear. Shadow priests and hunters are valued for their utility, not dps and ret paladins/enh shamans (besides a hybrid resto/enh spec with improved totems and Nightfall in a melee dps group) are just plain deadweight unless the content is already on farm. Sure you bring LotP but its utility diminishes exponentially as melees are able to achieve 40-50% crit even without it.

BWL also isn't a good test scenario as mages are doing only a fraction of what they're able to due to being pigeonholed into frost spec, and warlocks are crippled by the abundant shadow resistances. Once you hit AQ40, the gap becomes an endless abyss, with all pure damage dealers easily pushing over the 1k dps mark, fury warriors dishing out so much damage that tanks can hardly hold the aggro, fire mages fighting for ignites, rogues always sitting on top and warlocks becoming the kings of effortless dps, hell, even hunters are able to push 1k in some situations. All of this happens while feral druids are stuck with the same old gear as there are barely any upgrades worth mentioning and those usually go to fury warriors anyway.

I'm an avid druid player myself but I'm aware of their limitations. Going out of your way to chase a fantasy while crippling your guild is pretty disrespectful in my eyes, you're choosing to play something largely inferior while the rest of your guild is trying to pull their weight. Feral-resto hybrids with hybrid gear are pretty amazing for solo PvP though and you can get the gear to enable those builds by raiding as resto and collecting the hybrid pieces nobody wants to begin with, you get your fun without crippling the guild. You also have the perk of being able to raid with a hybrid build that's PvP viable as you don't really need anything below Swiftmend on the resto side.

If you want some feral fun in raids, you can carry a tanking set and offtank when needed, although that stops working once you hit Naxxramas as stuff simply hits too hard.

Look man I never was arguing about feral dps. The question was simply about trinkets for cat DPS. I'm not here to argue about your shitty views. Stick to the topic please.  

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13 hours ago, Terpsichore said:

That's so bad it's not even funny. On average he's doing considerably less dps than any pure damage dealer with a similar level of gear. Shadow priests and hunters are valued for their utility, not dps and ret paladins/enh shamans (besides a hybrid resto/enh spec with improved totems and Nightfall in a melee dps group) are just plain deadweight unless the content is already on farm. Sure you bring LotP but its utility diminishes exponentially as melees are able to achieve 40-50% crit even without it.

BWL also isn't a good test scenario as mages are doing only a fraction of what they're able to due to being pigeonholed into frost spec, and warlocks are crippled by the abundant shadow resistances. Once you hit AQ40, the gap becomes an endless abyss, with all pure damage dealers easily pushing over the 1k dps mark, fury warriors dishing out so much damage that tanks can hardly hold the aggro, fire mages fighting for ignites, rogues always sitting on top and warlocks becoming the kings of effortless dps, hell, even hunters are able to push 1k in some situations. All of this happens while feral druids are stuck with the same old gear as there are barely any upgrades worth mentioning and those usually go to fury warriors anyway.

I'm an avid druid player myself but I'm aware of their limitations. Going out of your way to chase a fantasy while crippling your guild is pretty disrespectful in my eyes, you're choosing to play something largely inferior while the rest of your guild is trying to pull their weight. Feral-resto hybrids with hybrid gear are pretty amazing for solo PvP though and you can get the gear to enable those builds by raiding as resto and collecting the hybrid pieces nobody wants to begin with, you get your fun without crippling the guild. You also have the perk of being able to raid with a hybrid build that's PvP viable as you don't really need anything below Swiftmend on the resto side.

If you want some feral fun in raids, you can carry a tanking set and offtank when needed, although that stops working once you hit Naxxramas as stuff simply hits too hard.

It's so bad it's not even funny? He literally tops out over all but 4 Warlocks on the entire server. You don't see people advocating to drop locks until AQ because they're 'unviable'.

In any guild not pushing server first or speed clears, Hunters at least are taken as DPS, and I've certainly seen plenty of guilds (Horde side at least) running multiple Shadow Priests because they got spots to fill. BWL isn't a good test scenario because Mages are screwed? They're stuck in Frost for MC and BWL, which is more than half the raiding time spent on pretty much every server, especially considering most Vanilla servers die before they release AQ or Naxx. Elysiums AQ release is going to be what, the 4th in the last 6-8 years? Feenix, The Rebirth, Kronos, Elysium. Most of those servers also took close to 2 years to get AQ out, so you'll disregard a viable DPS for ~18months-2years because other classes will outmatch them in a future raid that may or may not ever release?

Crippling your guild? Wow! I didn't realize that crippling your guild meant consistently coming in the top ten DPS spots or even #1 on a range of encounters, raids and bosses.

As to carrying a tanking set, it's something every competent Feral should do, as well as carrying a MP5 dispelling set.

People like you who argue that the entire balance and raid composition of the scene should be based around what is 'viable' for the top 1% of the raiding population are to blame for why the end game raiding scene is so toxic for newcomers.

Even then, funnily enough, that average BWL DPS would have put him 9th on <NOPE>'s last BWL raid. You really saying that DPS that would get into top 10 DPS of what is probably the top guild on the scene at the moment is crippling the guild and disrespectful?

Edited by Elicas
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Hopefully, we have pain relieving cream stocked up for the amount of butt hurt that will ensue in this post. I will follow it with great anticipation. Get em', Elicas.

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10 minutes ago, Statin said:

Hopefully, we have pain relieving cream stocked up for the amount of butt hurt that will ensue in this post. I will follow it with great anticipation. Get em', Elicas.

Eh, the point of my post isn't to burn or to insult him, but to educate.

Too many people get wrapped up in the whole viable debate without thinking it through. Viable does not mean optimal.

Every spec on every class is Viable. Enhancement Shamans, Ret Paladins. Even Prot Paladins. You can make any spec it the game work, you can make any spec viable.

None of those specs are optimal.

Which is a different argument entirely.

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12 hours ago, Elicas said:

People like you who argue that the entire balance and raid composition of the scene should be based around what is 'viable' for the top 1% of the raiding population are to blame for why the end game raiding scene is so toxic for newcomers.

 

I argue from the perspective one has after raiding for years on both retail and private servers, holding leadership positions in guilds which involves recruitment, theorycrafting, writing guides, helping those newcomers get past the initial requirements and to perform properly as the guild progresses, and spending endless hours of my free times outside of the raiding schedules organizing and running stuff like ZG/AQ20 and MC/BWL to help gear up those new players so they can eventually contribute in Naxxramas. Those efforts are put into motion to aid the guild, so it can have a solid roster and never fall short during raiding nights, not to entertain someone's fantasies of feral dps, which doesn't exist in vanilla.
The luxury of being able to bring in "fun" specs comes when the content is already on farm and people are bringing their alts, inviting pugs and similar, not when the guild is progressing and gearing up.

I'm pretty sure that most of people who held similar positions would agree with me on this

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I've done all of that on two recent servers and fundamentally disagree with you.

Naxxramas is the only raid in Vanilla that isn't 100% cleared on day 1 and presents any sort of challenge. The Kronos release of Naxx is going to be the first solid Naxx release on the whole vanilla scene for the last what, 4 years?

Excluding people for 95% of the games content because they aren't optimal in the final 5% is literally senseless, considering how unlikely each project is to ever see Naxx, let alone have people actually raid it.

You keep saying Feral DPS doesn't exist. Is that because you dislike looking at the evidence presented?

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On 2.3.2017 at 9:27 PM, Elicas said:

Every spec on every class is Viable. Enhancement Shamans, Ret Paladins. Even Prot Paladins. You can make any spec it the game work, you can make any spec viable.

 

Embrace it B|

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5 hours ago, jonu said:

Embrace it B|

Eh. I've never said they were unviable.

I've always argued they're the worst of the 3 tank options, and anyone who says they're better than Warriors is an idiot.

That doesn't mean they can't be made to work in certain situations.

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I just hope duki don't see the part for prot paladins, or else!

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On 28/02/2017 at 11:35 PM, Negrodamus said:

While doing my research, there appears to be some inconsistencies for what trinkets to use for cat DPS in PvE. So I'm wondering if someone can clear this up and is there a list out there that has dps Trinkets listed from worst to best for damage. 

Also does Hand of justice give us an extra hit in cat form? Is it worth it for feral kitties? 

And how good is Darkmoon Card: Maelstrom? Is it truly Bis forever? Anyone have numbers to show for this claim I often hear(or if there's any truth to it?)?

How bad will my dps be if I don't take blackhand's breath? I planned on taking Mark of Tryanny instead for tanking purposes to OT if needed in raids. 

Thanks!

Pre Bis is Hand of Justice and Darkmoon Card Maelstorm. There is no better combination.

You can disregard blackhands breath entirely. You will gain later on with MC/BWL gear up to 49~52% Crit Raid/World Buffed.

 

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On 3/8/2017 at 9:49 PM, Wortgewandt said:

Pre Bis is Hand of Justice and Darkmoon Card Maelstorm. There is no better combination.

You can disregard blackhands breath entirely. You will gain later on with MC/BWL gear up to 49~52% Crit Raid/World Buffed.

Do you have any information of DMC:M PPM? Every server has it set at vastly differing proc chances, and depending on what is correct will of course change where it sits on the BiS list.

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