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Jai

Loot council?

26 posts in this topic

Back when i were a lad, when me and 39 of my mates took up arms against somebody/thing that wasnt behaving themselves, we used DKP to distribute the loot.

Now when i read the guild recruitment posts they all seem to be using a loot council. 

So i was wondering as to when this fabled council came into power? Is it acknowledged as better than DKP? Have i been out of touch for too long? Is my memory really as bad as ... erm ...

 

Yours thoughts?

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Posted (edited)

I've read somewhere that a good loot council will give items to more deserving members - for example if the group loots a weapon that will massively improve one player's dps, but is only a minor upgrade for someone else, the item will be given to the poor bugger with crap weapon. It is meant to battle the unfair system where the people who were raiding for longer (so they have higher DKP) always get all the loot which doesn't give them as much of a boost.

But it only looks good on paper, because power corrupts and down with the government.

Edited by ilovecats
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I personally prefer DKP in big guilds, because in loot council you have to vote people - and 40 people? That's a lot! How can one keep track of each person? Sure, they all will need/greed an item, and if using AddOns it can be done pretty wisely.

 

Loot Council works if the system is uncorrupted, but I personally prefer DKP. It rewards you being there. :D

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uncorurpted loot council > dkp
dkp > true loot council

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Yes loot council is far better for guild's progression  and most of all for vanilla because bosses drop less items. the way loot council is done fast and properly is each class's class leader decides the loot that drops for only there class   when an item could be used by more than 1 class they have a talk with the class leader of the other class and decide together.

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Yeah, I agree with what most of what everyone here is saying.  A well done loot council is much better for a guilds progression.  Loot distribution will be more evenly distributed and it's more appealing for getting new members when the raids are on farm.  I really don't know which one I prefer.

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DKP has a handful of big issues, new members won't get any items except the ones no one want anyway. To counter that, many systems reset their standings for new content, that now fucks up people that have been there from day 1, all their saved points from all the raids they did with the guild - gone. He get's placed at the same level as someone who just joined.

Then a DKP system can be corrupt aswell, I once heard a story where a guy edited the points spent on older items, so no one noticed. For himself and friends.

It also pretty much encourages collusion, let's say you are a kinda specific group of characters, hunters are a good example because they share all the mail basically just with themselves if we're talking vanilla. Now, if they can come to a point where they say "You get this, I get this, he get's this" and they get all the mailitems for the minimumbid, they get an advantage over other groups of classes that share a lootgroup, the big group of clothies most specifically.

Overall, I prefer lootcouncil. If people pull too much shit there it will regulate itself by members leaving or starting to be vocal about it. With DKP, it's all hush-hush, either rewarding for long-time raiders and frustrating for new members or frustrating for long-time raiders.

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On the Rebirth, we had a loot council in my guild. Shame it was more of a boy's club who gave their friends gear over members who were actually carrying the raid. Not to mention it took 30 damn minutes to hand out four loot pieces because they had to go through the politics of who they liked and didn't like more. Guild leader would just take pieces for himself without a moment's thought that someone might have a piece that is aching to be replaced. This all being said, I don't like DKP either, but there needs to be a system in place for this loot. A fair loot council would work well, but if a guild is a glorified boy's club, it won't matter no matter the system you have in place.

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I was in a very strict but efficient guild in Wrath. There we had DKP AND a loot council of 3 raid leaders + the guild lead. It worked out pretty well I have to say, although the basic problem that you guys described above happened here as well. We had a few people, who were there on all the raids, since they had all the time in the world and not much loot would go through that barrier of DKP :D Bu the Loot council would override them often and it was pretty fair.

In a corrupt atmosphere it won't work, I agree. Although I believe that if someone is there all the time, they do deserve something.

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Both systems have their merits and shortcomings, with DKP you'll see a lot of loot "wasted", going to people who already have everything and bid for fun/to piss off others. You also see poorly informed people blowing up all their points on gear that doesn't benefit them that much, which is sometimes encouraged by others to secure their grasp on the real big toys.

Loot council can become biased easily, I've been part of one where most members had a hardon for giving BiS pieces to recruits over core players to "encourage them to play", which only ended up pissing off dedicated people and created endless drama that added unnecessary stress to the whole raiding process.

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I remember on retail WotLK I was in a loot council guild.  They gave a 2h weapon to a fury warrior for his offhand over me (DK) as my primary weapon.  I had the same or more attendance, but he was a friend of one of the raid leaders.  Pissed me right off.  Even so, I think I'd prefer loot council overall.  If done properly and without bias, loot council is better for the guild as a whole and as @maronics mentioned, DKP can be corrupted too.  If loot council is corrupt it will be much more transparent since everyone sees how the loot is being distributed, but people may not notice edits to a DKP spreadsheet.

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Posted (edited)

Loot Council means inner circle/friends first

 

20 minutes ago, ScubaV said:

If done properly and without bias

Loot Councils are inherently biased

Edited by kridx
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Posted (edited)

Guilds should write in their guild website how their loot council works, meaning how the loot decision is made so that you cant corrupt.

 

To me its completely stupid and nonsense making loot council decisions based on anything else.. It would be shit if there is a player who doesnt get items for 2-3 raids. Thats dissapointing and thats not how it should work, why would i spend my time, doing what the guild wants from me and not get items for 2-3 raids ? Thats bullshit.

 

It shouldnt be given to someone who makes the most dps or most heal. thats stupid and corrupt.

Doing this way others never get to deal more dps/heal.

Equiping main tank first makes sense.

 

Loot council depends on the person who runs it, so... is he rational or irrational ?

If i was doing it everybody would be happy and the insects who dont like this rational behaviour would leave the guild with some shit talking and then /gquit. i feel like running a guild like that on CF

Edited by Brikot
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loot council can be corrupt only if the gm/officers allow it .  keep in mind best guilds use loot council.

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A loot council which is fair and can recognize effort put in towards common guild goals is great, period. Loot councils are never truly "corrupt" even though #CLC (corrupt loot council) is an easily used term, they can however be incredible stupid beyond belief - and this is actually important to remember.

In HC guilds the most trusted long term members who perform superb in raids, world pvp & scout are usually rewarded first. On server launches the most trusted potential long term members & superb performers are rewarded ahead of every other player who is not investing enough time in gathering gear, consumables and materials for the guild. The loot council is perfect for these guilds as you can dump the best pieces on your best players, thus accelerating your progressionrate whilst avoiding casual larry to log off never to be seen again with 1-3 items that others could've used.

In casual guilds it can look a bit different: The LC can for no obvious reason other than stupidity try to reward trials over core raiders (Oh look X has *insert green item* whilst Y has *insert preraid bis* => Clearly X needs it more and thus should get it!), or "core raiders" over outstanding trials/members who have become "core" due to showing up to the raid 3-4 times in a row. Picture the following scenario: Item A drops, player X (core raider, slacker, still missing 8-9 pieces of preraid bis 2 months after his first raid with only upgrades being epics from raids, whilst performing POORLY in raids) and player Y (trial, first-second raid, has since joined enchanted all gear and gathered almost complete preraid bis whist performing like a god in raids) both wants the item: Who should recieve item A?

Honestly, if you are a normal-styled guild then just roll with DKP: You aren't competing with anyone but yourself and all above average players will stop putting up with your "loot councling" and move along when they quickly come to the realization that the council have next to no clue when they do their handouts. Loot council under such circumstances is like being visited by someone telling you they been abducted by aliens: You're not sure what the hell he has been smoking but you know you'll be outta there in no time.

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Loot council requires a lot of trust, a bad one will destroy a guild from the inside. I spent a lot of time on a LC on Kronos 1, and spent a lot of time outside the raid dealing with drama because of it. Lots of lazier players would try and influence me for loot.

On retail, I used DKP. It wasn't unusual for a class to work together to drive up prices on other items and waste other classes DKP overbidding for items so we would have more when the fun stuff dropped. This can also tear guilds apart from the inside if you ever get caught or the loot officer gets sick of your bullshit.

TLDR: Loot distribution sucks unless you have 40 good players and a good LC.

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40 man raiding was a mistake.

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Why ONLY these two looting distribution methods are mentioned?

Both LootCouncil and DKP aren't that good as all of you mentioned in this thread. We should know this by now.

Yet, no one ever even try to use other methods (especially in vanilla).

 

From my experience, for example, EPGP was the most fair loot-distribution system out there. Sadly noone will ever go for it.

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Best and most fair loot system?

GuildGoldDKP. 

You simply bid whit the games currency, not some "made up DKP" that Only Works in your Guild, that Will be useless once you leave the guild

Once the raid is finished you simply split the total pot between all the raiders (you can take 5/10% for the guildbank to help tanks get otus ect) 

This way everyone gains something from the raid, not like lootcouncil when you enter that raid you have on farm where you Only lose some manapots on rag..

It also gets People to play and farm when its not raidnight.. helps new members in 5mans, and all the extra goldfarm Will make the guild more rich. No more raidloggers

Got no loot from that raid? Gratz you can buy that beo from AH! And once you leave the guild you Will not lose every thing you "build up" witin that guild.

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2 hours ago, mrmr said:

Why ONLY these two looting distribution methods are mentioned?

Both LootCouncil and DKP aren't that good as all of you mentioned in this thread. We should know this by now.

Yet, no one ever even try to use other methods (especially in vanilla).

 

From my experience, for example, EPGP was the most fair loot-distribution system out there. Sadly noone will ever go for it.

I didn't even start raiding until the first tier of Cata on retail.  What's EPGP?

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Transparency is very important for loot council. LC also allows you to include more factors into loot decisions. Where dkp pretty much just captures attendance, LC allows you to consider attendance, performance, attitude, need, etc. 

I think that dkp is problematic in vanilla specifically when it comes to weapons because they drop so rarely (at least in MC/BWL as memory serves me). You want to be able to reward your top performers that show up every raid and not that guy that raids sporadically and hordes dkp.

I also feel that dkp punishes players that want to get gear to improve their raid performance. The most dkp efficient way to get gear is to sit back and wait for everyone else to get a specific drop and then you can get it for practically free. 

 

A slight variation of LC that I've seen included the standard standing LC made up of officers, raid leaders, class leaders, etc but also had 1-2 spots reserved on the LC for rotating members. So there was also someone "not in the club" to be part of the decisions.

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Posted (edited)

On 3. 3. 2017 at 11:52 PM, Brikot said:

It would be shit if there is a player who doesnt get items for 2-3 raids. Thats dissapointing and thats not how it should work, why would i spend my time, doing what the guild wants from me and not get items for 2-3 raids ? Thats bullshit.

I don't think you remember how many items per boss/raid dropped during vanilla xD I definitely went through multiple weeks without a single item, especially once everyone starts needing BiS instead of any item that drops, I was saving for Drakefang Talisman for more than three months.

 

DKP has quite a few issues that I didn't even realize at the time. I'm actually pretty sure that some of the other classes were colluding on their class gear to have more DKPs for inter-class one. I think this could be resolved by having two sets of DKP, one that can only be spent on class gear and one for other stuff.

This would also resolve the beginning of raids where nobody wanted class gear and were saving up for weapons.

Loot council is shitty, because of inherent biases. I was nominated as the person to split loot for our guild during cata. Doing it as a single person is something I wouldn't ever want to do again. It was 10 man, so everybody was mostly happy with the loot distribution, but it was difficult to asses who the item should go to.

Quote

GuildGoldDKP

How do you resolve waiting list? We had quite a few people on the waiting list when we needed to change raid setup and people were complaining when they couldn't get to raid if they didn't receive all DKP points for that raid. Gold makes it even worse.

Edited by meph
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6 hours ago, meph said:

 

How do you resolve waiting list? We had quite a few people on the waiting list when we needed to change raid setup and people were complaining when they couldn't get to raid if they didn't receive all DKP points for that raid. Gold makes it even worse.

Forced to sit this raid out? Great for you! Go farm that lotus and you will earn your "DKP" outside the raid.

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I understand the advantages of loot council, but I'm not a fan of it. I tend to join guilds that use some form of DKP. It's just the system I prefer.

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WIth loot council you need to have a mature unbiased leadership. My experience with wow-guilds (not only the once i been a part of) are that they selldom are. The high end server first guild it works because they wan't to get server first and can't afford biased. But as soon as you get belove that bracket you see the friends get items before etc. I seen it happend to often. 

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