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valaquenta

Concerning the game design overall : what's the right thing to do?

55 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

There's three distinct ways of going about tuning in basically any expansion I think

There's:
1.12.1 patch with 1.12.1 mob values (The kronos way)
1.12.1 patch with pre-nerf mob values (The Elysium way)
1.12.1 patch with buffed values to match 1.12.1 talents/ability/classes/etc (the Nostalrius way)

I think the majority of people will probably agree that the 3rd way of doing things is probably the best way to go. Which is why people detest kronos's content so much.

I wish I knew how Crestfall intend to test things internally, cause a pug of raid testers can't really compared to a properly coordinated, hardcore raiding guild. Although, I think I remember reading ages ago that the testers will test that everything functions correctly, then the staff will do the final tuning themselves.

Edited by Pvt_8Ball
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i dont think anyone seriously want any content to be a walkover so rather overtune it too much then if it turns out to be unkillable then nerf it a bit, and yes i'm speaking from a hc raider pov :$ kronos was so boring, we went in with 20-25 ppl first week and killed ragnaros without breaking a sweat, what's the fun in that?

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Posted (edited)

From my understanding, and I would like if the devs/mods or whoever could affirm me on this:

  1. The targeted difficulty for the PvE content on Crestfall is the same difficulty as the content when that content was released at the time; that is, before any later nerfing patches of the content, and mechanics matching;
  2. HOWEVER, Crestfall's items, talents, professions and class abilities are at 1.12.1 values, which act to INDIRECTLY NERF the PvE Content, even were it to be correctly set to the pre-nerf values.
    • by 'Values' i refer to the amount of damage the bosses, mechanics, and adds do, as well as; player dps, player healing, player damage reduction, and the strength of player items and minions/pets.
  3. Crestfall's tuning will consist of proportionally scaling the relevant pre-nerf values of every raid in the game up to the same equivalent difficulty as they were at the time of release, acting nullifying the indirect nerfs brought on by the later patches, so;
  4. For the purposes of PvE Content release-date difficulty, Crestfall will be Blizzlike; BUT
  5. for the purposes of emulating the 1.12.1 patch identically, Crestall will NOT be Blizzlike.

Therefore, Crestfall PvE content, is, at least in the minds of raiders, due to be MORE Blizzlike than traditional 1.12.1 emulation.

 

Edited by Ester
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45 minutes ago, Ester said:

From my understanding, and I would like if the devs/mods or whoever could affirm me on this:

  1. The targeted difficulty for the PvE content on Crestfall is the same difficulty as the content when that content was released at the time; that is, before any later nerfing patches of the content, and mechanics matching;
  2. HOWEVER, Crestfall's items, talents, professions and class abilities are at 1.12.1 values, which act to INDIRECTLY NERF the PvE Content, even were it to be correctly set to the pre-nerf values.
    • by 'Values' i refer to the amount of damage the bosses, mechanics, and adds do, as well as; player dps, player healing, player damage reduction, and the strength of player items and minions/pets.
  3. Crestfall's tuning will consist of proportionally scaling the relevant pre-nerf values of every raid in the game up to the same equivalent difficulty as they were at the time of release, acting nullifying the indirect nerfs brought on by the later patches, so;
  4. For the purposes of PvE Content release-date difficulty, Crestfall will be Blizzlike; BUT
  5. for the purposes of emulating the 1.12.1 patch identically, Crestall will NOT be Blizzlike.

Therefore, Crestfall PvE content, is, at least in the minds of raiders, due to be MORE Blizzlike than traditional 1.12.1 emulation.

 

 

17 hours ago, valaquenta said:

From the FAQ :

"

Q.  Vanilla content is so easy, how are you going to prevent people from clearing raids on the day they are released?  Or abusing content to get tons of gold?

A.  Our intention is to create a retail-like experience in terms of difficulty, and to that end, the content will be made more difficult.  First thing is to fix a lot of the bugs and loopholes that make private servers much easier to play on than retail was.  AI for many bosses is either broken or incorrect, so the first thing is to fix that.  Secondly we fix a bunch of things that Blizzard never got around to fixing, or fixed in a halfhearted way that didn't solve the problem of abuse and exploitation.  This may mean we have to make things a little bit different than retail, but again, the intention is to preserve a retail-like level of difficulty and a retail-like feel.  With respect to buffing raid bosses, we intend to buff only the bosses in Molten Core and Blackwing Lair.  Our opinion is that, scripted properly, the AQ and Naxxramas bosses are difficult enough.  Boss buffing will be handled in a few ways, as we see befits the encounter, with the intention of offsetting the increased player power provided by 1.12-patch talents available to the players.  In most cases this will just mean baseline stat buffs, reduction of cooldowns on boss abilities, or more unpredictable use of those same abilities.  Bosses may initially be buffed to a significantly more difficult level than on retail, but we reserve the right to tune things post-launch to a level concordant with the time, effort and ability expected of a casual raiding guild should we decide it is too difficult."

 

So for vanilla, the content design is already quite clear in fact ;-).

Just to highlight this specifically.

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I'll give another example : i'm beta testing gummy's server right now, and although it feels good overall with all the prenerf details, you can feel that the 2.4.3 patch gives you an advantage (maybe 10-20% or something), and that you would have struggled even more before it happened.

It kinda makes sense why the corecraft team chose to buff most bosses in t4 and t5 (apart from the hardest ones like kael and vashj).

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Keep in mind that darkrasp and the community did a lot of research to get I believe 1.4 era gear values that will jump to 1.12 values around ZG/AQ time if my memory serves me correctly

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I just want tweaks to make certain specs viable.

Give us boomkins in vanilla! I'm bored of the same 4 classes filling raids.

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21 minutes ago, Adalon said:

I just want tweaks to make certain specs viable.

Give us boomkins in vanilla! I'm bored of the same 4 classes filling raids.

I understand where you're coming from, but that is not what this is about : what you're proposing is a custom, "fun" server experience, which is completely different from retuning raids out of necessity.

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8 hours ago, valaquenta said:

I understand where you're coming from, but that is not what this is about : what you're proposing is a custom, "fun" server experience, which is completely different from retuning raids out of necessity.

lol, the fallacy. Why on earth would be retuning raid out of necessity be ok while retuning classes would be considered custom, "fun" server experience? this doesnt make any sanse....

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Zniki said:

lol, the fallacy. Why on earth would be retuning raid out of necessity be ok while retuning classes would be considered custom, "fun" server experience? this doesnt make any sanse....

Because retuning raids is necessary to make the experience more "blizzlike", i.e. challenging, whereas retuning classes would be the opposite of "blizzlike"? :P

I'd love to play vanilla with more viable specs as well but the general consensus among players is that a blizzlike server is something to strive towards whereas anything that deviates from the original game is bad, so any project that were to do something like that would loose a lot of potential players. Also, balancing specs is not exactly easy, seeing how Blizzard has never managed to balance their own game, so I wouldn't trust amateurs to be able to do so either. And once you make 1 spec more viable, you'll open a big, smelly, can of worms and soon everyone is crying for their spec to be buffed and others nerfed.

Personally, I'd like to one day see a private server that continues the vanilla progression after 1.12 with custom patches, new raids and class tweaks included. A pipe dream, I know, but would still be pretty cool imo.

Edited by Lilaina
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Buffed content is an absolute necessity for server's longevitiy, else everything will be smoked through in no time and people will get bored of hoarding purples pretty fast.

I myself would greatly enjoy custom changes to some skills, mechanics and gear. Some stuff is plain bad and there's no way around it, opening more possible build options and gameplay styles would be awesome in such an old game.

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3 hours ago, Zniki said:

lol, the fallacy. Why on earth would be retuning raid out of necessity be ok while retuning classes would be considered custom, "fun" server experience? this doesnt make any sanse....

Apples and oranges, again : classes do way more damage in 1.12 than what they did when these raids were introduced, not to mention (again) that these radis were nerfed several times in vanilla, making the content effectively faceroll, at the very least for MC and BWL.

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So which patch is ''proper blizzlike vanilla experiance''? 

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My bad. Apparently tweaking and changing raid content is needed and would be ok even if it's not the all important, 'blizzlike' but fixing classes so we can bring more than the same 4 specs would make it a 'custom' or 'fun' server.

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Posted (edited)

42 minutes ago, Adalon said:

My bad. Apparently tweaking and changing raid content is needed and would be ok even if it's not the all important, 'blizzlike' but fixing classes so we can bring more than the same 4 specs would make it a 'custom' or 'fun' server.

For the hundredth time, apples and oranges.

You're simply desperate to see your boomkin be a top dpser in vanilla, but you won't see it happen.

It's so simple overall, seriously : the purpose is to bring back the feeling of a challenging content, of the adventure that was wow, NOT to make it a fun server by changing the meta and making all classes be viable dps. If that's what you want, you should play another version of the game.

Also, again, that's what corecraft did : buffing the content, so that t4 and t5 would still be a challenge. Did they want to change the classes? No, of course not, or the vast majority of people would have been extremely disappointed by such a thing, and honestly, it would be so fucking weird and it would change everything.

Edited by valaquenta
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36 minutes ago, Adalon said:

My bad. Apparently tweaking and changing raid content is needed and would be ok even if it's not the all important, 'blizzlike' but fixing classes so we can bring more than the same 4 specs would make it a 'custom' or 'fun' server.

Even if you could do that, theres no proper boomkin gear in the game in vanilla. You would have those random pieces here and there, sure. But its not exactly as simple as just make a class viable.

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I think vanilla balance is good,,hybrids should be weaker...

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Just now, gaidonx said:

I think vanilla balance is good,,hybrids should be weaker...

Definitely. Or else, it's not vanilla.

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1 hour ago, Zniki said:

So which patch is ''proper blizzlike vanilla experiance''? 

well incremental patching would obviously be the most blizzlike experience but that would come with so much work for the devs that it's simply not feasable. adjusting the raid itself to make the difficulty comparable with an older patch but with using the 1.12 client is the next best thing.

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1 hour ago, valaquenta said:

For the hundredth time, apples and oranges.

You're simply desperate to see your boomkin be a top dpser in vanilla, but you won't see it happen.

It's so simple overall, seriously : the purpose is to bring back the feeling of a challenging content, of the adventure that was wow, NOT to make it a fun server by changing the meta and making all classes be viable dps. If that's what you want, you should play another version of the game.

Also, again, that's what corecraft did : buffing the content, so that t4 and t5 would still be a challenge. Did they want to change the classes? No, of course not, or the vast majority of people would have been extremely disappointed by such a thing, and honestly, it would be so fucking weird and it would change everything.

Dogmatic! 

 

Apples and organes are both fruits and very much alike.

True, hybrids should be weaker, but there are whole proper specs that shoudn't be complite shit.

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Posted (edited)

14 minutes ago, Zniki said:

Dogmatic! 

 

Apples and organes are both fruits and very much alike.

True, hybrids should be weaker, but there are whole proper specs that shoudn't be complite shit.

That's why it evolved during the other versions of the game. If you want to make a custom vanilla server because you don't like that part of vanilla, or play on one, then by all means go ahead, to each his own after all. However, you'll have to admit that this idea will only appeal to a minority of players, and that crestfall's team will never let this happen (... well, probably not :D )

Edited by valaquenta
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Posted (edited)

7 hours ago, Zniki said:

lol, the fallacy. Why on earth would be retuning raid out of necessity be ok while retuning classes would be considered custom, "fun" server experience? this doesnt make any sanse....

I think it's quite easy to see that retuning classes would have far more dire implications compared to raid retuning. Plus, how the hell do you even go about tuning classes, it would be a massive undertaking. Let's say we retune classes so that Molten Core is more challenging, well fuck, now AQ40 is literally impossble.

When Blizzard were originally designing the raids, if they decided a boss was too easy, they wouldn't go and start nerfing classes would they...

Retuning raids is the cleanest solution to the problem at hand. Obviously no approach is perfect, but they've gotta do something.

Anyway, I think all this discussion is probably moot, since Crestfall already 95% decided how they're handling it months ago.

Edited by Pvt_8Ball
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4 minutes ago, Pvt_8Ball said:

I think it's quite easy to see that retuning classes would have far more dire implications compared to raid retuning. Plus, how the hell do you even go about tuning classes, it would be a massive undertaking. Let's say we retune classes so that Molten Core is more challenging, well fuck, now AQ40 is literally impossble.

When Blizzard were originally designing the raids, if they decided a boss was too easy, they wouldn't go and start nerfing classes would they...

slight number decrease or increase depending which class/spec, maybe even adding custom loot with different sets of stats on em. I'm not saying it would be easy... 

The whole beef i have is with people that have double standards for their view of what vanilla is supposed to be and their lack of following their own logic while saying their view is proper vanilla and the rest is a fun server (used as a slur) ...

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38 minutes ago, Zniki said:

slight number decrease or increase depending which class/spec, maybe even adding custom loot with different sets of stats on em. I'm not saying it would be easy... 

The whole beef i have is with people that have double standards for their view of what vanilla is supposed to be and their lack of following their own logic while saying their view is proper vanilla and the rest is a fun server (used as a slur) ...

Pretty much this.

Didn't even say they should be on par with pure dps or more. Apparently wanting to include all the shit vanilla specs is heresy and, "well that's not vanilla..." when tweaking raids wouldn't be either, not to mention the snide, "we'll you can go make your own server then!" digs.

Still excited for CF. Still plan on being Feral/Resto for vanilla. Just wonder why things like broken specs can't be tweaked if other stuff is. Looking forward to playing out this custom raiding, it can get a bit boring face rolling everything since everyone has their characters pre planned and optimized.

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Classes can, do, and will balance out. Just wait 15-18 months for TBC. 

I'd love to see a ret pally beating a fury warrior in damage, using skill over optimum spec. But the powers have mentioned it a hundred times, they're not doing it. If you want a balanced spec vanilla, you're going to have create your own. (And if you do, I'd like to try it out)

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