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valaquenta

About AQ40, and C'thun

Posted (edited)

I remember people criticizing the aq40 on kronos, and now people are critizing elysium's one, because the top guilds are able to clean everything in a matter of hours. Apart from the obvious advantage that comes with the knowledge of these encounters, i think some people forgot about one thing : c'thun was mathematically unbeatable BEFORE it was fixed, as it was completely buggy before : http://www.pcgamer.com/the-story-of-cthun-how-a-wow-boss-drove-raiders-to-madness/

 

Now, the interesting part : as this article shows, many thought that c'thun's nerf was too much, and made the fight trivial. Which means that the way these teams (kronos, elysium...) took care of the raids wasn't necessarily bad, in fact they might have done a good job. Of course there's still the issue of the exploits that they couldn't fix, but that's another story.

To the team (for those who have the time to answer) : what is your point of view concerning c'thun? I mean, you're going to make it so that MC and BWL will definitely be a challenge for raiders, wouldn't it be weird if AQ40 was, proportionally, easier than the previous pve encounters? I recall reading something in the faq about AQ40 being hard enough, but i believe that the only reason that it was so hard was because of the "bugged" version of c'thun.

Is there some middle ground here? Are you planning to avoid re-incorportating the bugs that made this boss impossible to beat, and yet trying to make the encounter one hell of a challenge compared to how easy the fixed c'thun is? Also, what's the plan for the other bosses of the raid? The top raiding guilds will clean the content quickly anyways, but i tend to believe that even the other bosses should be harder.

As i said, it looks like the only raid that shouldn't be touched AT ALL is naxx40, AQ40 is probably not hard enough to consider not modifying a few things.

What do you guys think?

Edited by valaquenta
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Posted (edited)

Pretty sure lolysium players would kill him even if he was pre-nerf mode :P.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ElysiumProject/comments/67zzrk/swig_from_sorry_exploits_ignite_to_kill_cthun_in/

As for me, sure, leave him unnerfed. I hate tryhards that have to clear everything in 30 minutes from opening, following the same old tactics down to a second. Make them work for it.

 

Edited by Xaverius
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as i said in the other thread, better overtune atr the start and nerf if need be, no one wants a walkover raid :)

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Posted (edited)

Personally, I don't really care about following blizz-like stats, values and so forth. I just want things to be satisfying, I don't really expect Molten core to be crazy hard or anything like that, but as long as the challenge is some what similar to how it was on retail, then I'll be happy, that is, it should go something like MC>BWL>>AQ40>>>>>Naxx, where Naxx is pull your hair out difficult.

Hopefully during testing, they're be able to figure out where to draw the line, and figure out if AQ40/Naxx need retuning, or if it's ok just as pre-nerf, Cause player skill and 1.12.1 changes probably go a long way towards making even high end content like Naxx not as punishing as it should be.

When it comes to tuning, I think the thing we all need to bare in mind is that not only have the top end guilds gotten better, but all the strats and meta the top end guilds use have naturally trickled down to the mid and low tier guilds, meaning that the average guild is FAR FAR more capable that an average guild from back in the day.

Anyway, the last thing I want to say is that I don't want to see the top end guilds just one shotting all the top end raids, minutes after release.

Edited by Pvt_8Ball
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Posted (edited)

I think it would be more adequate to say "pre-bug" rather than "pre-nerf" to be honest guys :D. That's why i was wondering if it would be wiser to try to find a middle ground. If C'thun totally unbeatable as it was back in the day, i don't see the point, however if he's super hard and yet doable, then i'm all for it.

Edited by valaquenta
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Harder the better, I say.

That way there will be less people running around with better gear than I. :P

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56 minutes ago, Xaverius said:

Pretty sure lolysium players would kill him even if he was pre-nerf mode :P.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ElysiumProject/comments/67zzrk/swig_from_sorry_exploits_ignite_to_kill_cthun_in/

As for me, sure, leave him unnerfed. I hate tryhards that have to clear everything in 30 minutes from opening, following the same old tactics down to a second. Make them work for it.

 

that is disgusting and I hope that their permanent ban is never ever lifted

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I'm sorry, but I can't see any reason for them to be banned for this.  Developers are keeping rolling ignites in the game because it was blizzlike in vanilla, so why should they be banned?  If they don't want mages to abuse ignite stacking then they should patch it like blizz did in the pre-TBC patch or whenever it happened.  There's absolutely no reason to penalize them for something that every vanilla dev under the sun is leaving in.

The issue with Power Infusion, though, does seem a little bit fishy, but is there any guarantee it wasn't like this back in retail vanilla?  

If anything, all this does is make the developers of vanilla emulation look more ludicrous for allowing this to go on when they know that people are smarter than ever when it comes to mechanics that existed 12 years ago.

If it were me, I would give them all a slap on the wrist and confiscate their loot  and rep gains for that entire AQ40 run (essentially making it so they lose a week of AQ40 loot) as punishment, but nothing more.  Permanent bans for taking advantage of a blizzlike feature just doesn't seem right, no matter how ridiculous it is.  This needs to be patched if it's so bad just the same way developers are patching Dire Maul farming runs, etc. 

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38 minutes ago, Lloyd2k4 said:

I'm sorry, but I can't see any reason for them to be banned for this.  Developers are keeping rolling ignites in the game because it was blizzlike in vanilla, so why should they be banned?  If they don't want mages to abuse ignite stacking then they should patch it like blizz did in the pre-TBC patch or whenever it happened.  There's absolutely no reason to penalize them for something that every vanilla dev under the sun is leaving in.

The issue with Power Infusion, though, does seem a little bit fishy, but is there any guarantee it wasn't like this back in retail vanilla?  

If anything, all this does is make the developers of vanilla emulation look more ludicrous for allowing this to go on when they know that people are smarter than ever when it comes to mechanics that existed 12 years ago.

If it were me, I would give them all a slap on the wrist and confiscate their loot  and rep gains for that entire AQ40 run (essentially making it so they lose a week of AQ40 loot) as punishment, but nothing more.  Permanent bans for taking advantage of a blizzlike feature just doesn't seem right, no matter how ridiculous it is.  This needs to be patched if it's so bad just the same way developers are patching Dire Maul farming runs, etc. 

another reason why closed beta takes a bit longer to prevent "disasters" like that from happening when the realm is live.  ignite is no small thing to get right.

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Posted (edited)

For me personally it's not just AQ that should be adjusted, but all raid content. Better start too hard and retune if needed.

 

Some bugs can't be solved regardless how long testing is, they will need to be handled during live week. 

 

Does CF have a specific Content Designer who's in charge of the raid tuning ?

Edited by Morrasul
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18 minutes ago, Morrasul said:

For me personally it's not just AQ that should be adjusted, but all raid content. Better start too hard and retune if needed.

 

Some bugs can't be solved regardless how long testing is, they will need to be handled during live week. 

 

Does CF have a specific Content Designer who's in charge of the raid tuning ?

I think Asura wants to take of it, when it comes to details, and maybe darkrasp too. I doubt they'll have the time to answer though, maybe elicas can.

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Posted (edited)

5 hours ago, Morrasul said:

Does CF have a specific Content Designer who's in charge of the raid tuning ?

I think I remember reading ages ago that Asura and gang will take care of the final tuning themselves, but I could easily be wrong; my memory is quite hazy on that.

Edited by Pvt_8Ball
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Was C'Thun that easy on other private servers? or was it just class bugs and other things? I have a feeling that it might have been a combination of those things.

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10 hours ago, Morrasul said:

Does CF have a specific Content Designer who's in charge of the raid tuning ?

Asura and Darkrasp do it in collaboration.

Most raid 'scripting' is database work. Making sure abilities do the right damage, mobs have the correct HP/Mana/Armour, mobs have the right cooldowns, mobs have the correct patrol waypoints, that sort of stuff.

The more complex stuff and overall 'difficulty level' will be fine tuned by the guys as we finish off beta testing.

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59 minutes ago, Elicas said:

Asura and Darkrasp do it in collaboration.

Most raid 'scripting' is database work. Making sure abilities do the right damage, mobs have the correct HP/Mana/Armour, mobs have the right cooldowns, mobs have the correct patrol waypoints, that sort of stuff.

The more complex stuff and overall 'difficulty level' will be fine tuned by the guys as we finish off beta testing.

Thanks for the clarification. Is there a way we can take a look at values etc ? 

 

F.e. Will CF have an open database webpage which is accessible for everyone ?

 

Also will they just make abilities work correct or retune values? Iirc they said in the FAQ they will just make abilities work correct but not retune ?!

 I'm in fear that even if they make all abilities work correct it will be steamrolled . I also remember that they want to nerf pure spell power items (the green ones) to increase difficulty , yet other servers didn't even have them due to item "backscripting" and still MC, Ony, BWL was cleared within few hours after the first guild entered them.

 

Id really appreciate any kind of response , so i would already like to thank you for this type of direct communication 😁👌

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7 minutes ago, Morrasul said:

Thanks for the clarification. Is there a way we can take a look at values etc ? 

Not currently, 

F.e. Will CF have an open database webpage which is accessible for everyone ?

An answer to this will actually be given in the upcoming Q&A.

Also will they just make abilities work correct or retune values? Iirc they said in the FAQ they will just make abilities work correct but not retune ?!

Currently, the world mobs are tuned to be slightly harder than blizzlike. It's a minor adjustment, but it is noticeable. I believe the plan is to do the same in instances as well, though Darkrasp will be the best to ask for this specific detail. That would be a good question to ask for next months Q&A!

 I'm in fear that even if they make all abilities work correct it will be steamrolled . I also remember that they want to nerf pure spell power items (the green ones) to increase difficulty , yet other servers didn't even have them due to item "backscripting" and still MC, Ony, BWL was cleared within few hours after the first guild entered them.

There is a fine line to walk. We can't completely redesign the encounters to make them hard for people with 11 years experience without being labelled as a "Funserver", impacting on our potential population. At the same time, we don't want entry level raids to be too hard that no-one but no lifers can clear them. MC, Onyxia, ZG and BWL will never truly be hard without a complete overhaul, which is outside the scope of this project. We believe our versions will be harder than the general norm, but you just can't recapture the initial retail releases.

Id really appreciate any kind of response , so i would already like to thank you for this type of direct communication 😁👌

You're welcome!

My answers in red. :)

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Thanks a lot @Elicas

 

i didn't want to requote as the posts get so long. So if you say they won't do a raid overhaul I understand that they won't write new abilities. But what about adjusting the existing abilities to create a more challenging encounter ?

 

I think just retuning the existing abilities wouldn't make it a fun server nor make it to complex for the average players. I mean boss designs weren't very complex in vanilla. What's your opinion on that ?

 

i guess it's written somewhere but when will the Q&A take place ? I'd really be interested in participating.

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16 minutes ago, Morrasul said:

Thanks a lot.

i didn't want to requote as the posts get so long. So if you say they won't do a raid overhaul I understand that they won't write new abilities. But what about adjusting the existing abilities to create a more challenging encounter?

There will definitely be no new abilities.

Some abilities may be re-tuned, in that they have a variable cooldown instead of static (to break boss mods) or they do increased damage. Again, this sort of question would be best posed to the devs themselves for the next Q&A.

I think just retuning the existing abilities wouldn't make it a fun server nor make it to complex for the average players. I mean boss designs weren't very complex in vanilla. What's your opinion on that?

I think there is a very large movement of legacy fans who wont play on any server they deem to stray from 'blizzlike'. We saw that when we first floated the idea of a vanity store if donations couldn't cover the servers, and the initial response to us saying we would be making some adjustments to MC.

i guess it's written somewhere but when will the Q&A take place ? I'd really be interested in participating.

Outstanding made a post about an upcoming Q&A here. Answers should go up this weekend, once I have final approval from Asura that all is to his satisfaction.

Answers above, again in red. 

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