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Darkrasp

Darkrasp's Blog 5/15/2017

64 posts in this topic

Not allowing flasks or pots in raids? That's a real suggestion?

One of the biggest time and gold sinks in the whole game, it's what vanilla is all about, the grind, to 60 and after. Raid preparation and farming to be able to tackle a difficult raid or boss is what makes old wow so unique and challenging.

9 hours ago, Noriam said:

I don't know about everyone but i'd guess the fun in PVE is in raiding, not in farming cash/consumables.

So we all just log on to raid? Did I miss something, did retail just shut down? Why play this version then....

In terms of black lotus, the sever will be capped to half the size of any other server you've played on so far (it will be like 5.5k, actual blizz like cap), it looks like the use of VPNs will also be banned along with random timers I believe but Black lotus farming will and SHOULD still be a thing but it won't be crazy like it was/is on Nost/Elysium.

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3 minutes ago, Nocturn said:

Not allowing flasks or pots in raids? That's a real suggestion?

One of the biggest time and gold sinks in the whole game, it's what vanilla is all about, the grind, to 60 and after. Raid preparation and farming to be able to tackle a difficult raid or boss is what makes old wow so unique and challenging.

So we all just log on to raid? Did I miss something, did retail just shut down? Why play this version then....

In terms of black lotus, the sever will be capped to half the size of any other server you've played on so far (it will be like 5.5k, actual blizz like cap), it looks like the use of VPNs will also be banned along with random timers I believe but Black lotus farming will and SHOULD still be a thing but it won't be crazy like it was/is on Nost/Elysium.

AHH ! Server cap ! Of course. And just to clarify, if my post came across as if I wanted there to be no pots/flask then I just have to learn to type better. Or re-learn basic english. I love going inn fully world buffed, with all consumes and wreaking havoc on the dps charts. Also spending so much time/gold on consumes makes it so you have to focus THAT much more on not over aggroing/missplaying ! 

 

But will there in that case be more then 1 pvp server, or will there be massive ques? hmm.... 

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3 hours ago, Nocturn said:

One of the biggest time and gold sinks in the whole game, it's what vanilla is all about, the grind, to 60 and after. Raid preparation and farming to be able to tackle a difficult raid or boss is what makes old wow so unique and challenging.

That doesn't make something 'unique and challenging.'  It makes it 'a colossal waste of time.'  

Time sink does not equal unique and challenging.

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Posted (edited)

5 hours ago, Darkrasp said:

In this way a raid that tries to stack a ton of melee DPS might do great for a few encounters - until they run into one that has been tuned to demolish melee DPS

so you're gonna make it so pre-BWL guilds can't kill shazzarah in under 40 seconds by sending all their melee in with a prepopped greater arcane protection potion and a second one to use after it wears off?

I think that in particular could be fixed by making the curse make you take 50 or 100% more arcane damage every time you're hit by it; decursers wouldn't be able to keep up and melee would just die

also increase shazzrah's armor and hp by maybe 10%

 

...maybe you could give shazz whirlwind instead

Edited by Aquane
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Posted (edited)

54 minutes ago, Lloyd2k4 said:

Time sink does not equal unique and challenging

Instead of defining what is or isn't 'unique' or 'challenging' please offer a better contradicting point to what i was actually trying to get across. And if you still thinks it's a waste of time that's a you problem, vanilla wow is a time sync with lots of wasted time. spamming LFG is a waste of time, why don't we have LFG tool? that'l speed things up.

I guarantee they will never take pots/flasking or world buffs out of the game. It's a joke to even suggest something so asinine. 

Edited by Nocturn
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I wonder if people who suggest stuff like disallowing consumables in raids even played the game. That would completely destroy many aspects of the game, like turning certain fights outright impossible and making it so casuals/PvP players aren't able to earn money since they can no longer sell mats to raiders.

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4 hours ago, Nocturn said:

Instead of defining what is or isn't 'unique' or 'challenging' please offer a better contradicting point to what i was actually trying to get across. And if you still thinks it's a waste of time that's a you problem, vanilla wow is a time sync with lots of wasted time. spamming LFG is a waste of time, why don't we have LFG tool? that'l speed things up.

I guarantee they will never take pots/flasking or world buffs out of the game. It's a joke to even suggest something so asinine. 

I don't want them to take pots/elixirs/flasks out of the game; I just want them to be more balanced in general.  World buffs are stupid, though, and I personally wish they would get dispelled on entering a raid instance.  

If Vanilla had the guardian/battle elixir mechanic and no stacking with flasks, it would be ace, but because it doesn't, the grind for endless supplies of potions and elixirs and flasks never ends.  It's not enjoyable at all.  Is raiding enjoyable?  Sure.  Grinding for consumables or gold endlessly to keep up isn't.

 

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Posted (edited)

Some people, believe it or not, take great pride and joy in their role of gathering or crafting for the guild. Gathering itself usually isn't an issue at all; A few volunteers pitch in, and if it's not quite enough, the GM buys the rest from the AH or tradechat offers using guild bank funds. Making professions (alchemy) even less worthwhile and purposeful is sure to dishearten many, not to mention the economic destruction that was mentioned earlier.

Maybe it's not actively, enthusiastically "fun", but that sense of meaningful purpose is certainly a critical element to the game and what some (a minority of, but still) players take very seriously.

If you somehow form a whole raiding guild of people that strongly dislike gathering and crafting, that's just bad luck -- but you can still hire other people who need gold to do that work for you.

Edited by Boulda
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Hmm, ok, I can see why removing flasks would be a bad idea but I agree with @Lloyd2k4 that stacking world buffs is stupid. Did people really do that for all raids during retail vanilla? :P

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World buffs mostly help clear content on farm faster so there's more time for progress.

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Posted (edited)

What would you guys say about making flasks more blizzlike? Until patch 1.3, they were dispellable, and it wasn't until (I think)  1.7 that they finally got their persist-through-death effect. I never played during retail, but I think it's safe to say that not many people used flasks in MC and BWL progression.

EDIT: You could apparently also have more flasks at the same time until 1.6, though I doubt it was very compelling considering you lost them all on death.

Edited by Wolfrig
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Posted (edited)

Just now, Nocturn said:

Instead of defining what is or isn't 'unique' or 'challenging' please offer a better contradicting point to what i was actually trying to get across. And if you still thinks it's a waste of time that's a you problem, vanilla wow is a time sync with lots of wasted time. spamming LFG is a waste of time, why don't we have LFG tool? that'l speed things up.

I guarantee they will never take pots/flasking or world buffs out of the game. It's a joke to even suggest something so asinine. 

First of all I am not suggesting anything per se otherwise I would have made a proper post in a proper place to do that; and second I never said to get rid of pots and flasks from the game.

The topic at hand was how to make raids challenging by tweeking the game ins't it? I don't see how limiting the amount of buffs we can have the lesser approach vs. making bosses tougher. As mentioned by several people, once you start tweeking you might encounter some unexpected results.

Yes vanilla is fun and no it is not because it is a huge time sink. I think we all grew out (I hope) of playing 16 hours a day but that doesn't mean retail is appealing either.

Edited by Noriam
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Posted (edited)

If stacking world buffs wasn't possible, I'd propably not even want to play the game, it's a huge part of fun raids for many people.

Edited by Cephei
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On 2017-5-16 at 1:21 AM, Darkrasp said:

It is also our intention to follow Blizz's example and, if required, nerf the content over time to allow more players to experience it.  It's been mentioned plenty of times that it's a bad idea to tune the entire experience around the top 1% of players, so that's not what we're going to do - but we might tune the first few weeks for the top 1%, just to see how that goes.

After being in a guild that only downed the Lich King after he'd been nerfed, I can fully support this :).

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If you want to play like a casual,  join a casual guild that moves at a casual pace and hits the content after the difficulty has be lowered to a point where neglecting consumables and world buffs won't be as detrimental. Easy fix. Don't expect the world to cater to your lackadaisical human nature or shitty schedule that is a by-product of your decisions. That isn't an ideal that vanilla wow possesses. It is what it is and YOU conform to IT, not the other way around. If you want to play Hello Kitty Island Adventure, I'm pretty sure the servers are still active.

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, Bluemoon said:

If you want to play like a casual,  join a casual guild that moves at a casual pace and hits the content after the difficulty has be lowered to a point where neglecting consumables and world buffs won't be as detrimental. Easy fix. Don't expect the world to cater to your lackadaisical human nature or shitty schedule that is a by-product of your decisions. That isn't an ideal that vanilla wow possesses. It is what it is and YOU conform to IT, not the other way around. If you want to play Hello Kitty Island Adventure, I'm pretty sure the servers are still active.

I'm just a lazy casual with a below 100 IQ, so correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the removal or limiting of world buffs/flasks make the raids harder for casuals and not easier? :P No one is asking the CF devs to make the game easier here, just pointing out that the raids would be harder without them. Afaik the current mentality of stacking everything didn't exist or wasn't even possible back during retail until in the later patches.

Edited by Lilaina
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Posted (edited)

world buffs and consumable stacking was a part of vanilla.  blizzard corrected this design choice in TBC with the battle/guardian elixir and making old world buffs useless past level 63.

also, most pservers dont even script the world buff cooldown timer, resulting in multiple world buffs being dropped daily at their disposal. fix this and you will have a tougher experience doing content without world buffs due to the cooldown.

Edited by imbaslap
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1 hour ago, Lilaina said:

I'm just a lazy casual with a below 100 IQ, so correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the removal or limiting of world buffs/flasks make the raids harder for casuals and not easier? :P No one is asking the CF devs to make the game easier here, just pointing out that the raids would be harder without them. Afaik the current mentality of stacking everything didn't exist or wasn't even possible back during retail until in the later patches.

World buffs/flasks being removed would make it "easier" for players who want to hardcore raid because they won't be required to spend as much time outside of raid farming consumables and stacking those buffs.  However I believe that that recovered time will just be spent wiping inside of the raid which makes the process much less enjoyable and will keep players from raiding.  As far as the content itself, yes removing those buffs would make the actual raids more difficult to complete, but some think the recovered time from not having to farm consumables and world buffs would completely make up for the extended time in the raid (it's understandable that some people want to put their focus on the content and not the preparation for the content, however that prep work is just a part of vanilla).

 

I think the thought of it making it easier for casuals, is that less of a time investment is required outside of a raid in order to join the raid.  That lets casuals have the ability to join the raids. However without those buffs, the casuals are going to be spending two 3 hour raid nights a week just trying to clear MC, that's not very friendly to casuals in my opinion.

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19 minutes ago, Lilaina said:

I'm just a lazy casual with a below 100 IQ, so correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the removal or limiting of world buffs/flasks make the raids harder for casuals and not easier? :P No one is asking the CF devs to make the game easier here, just pointing out that the raids would be harder without them. Afaik the current mentality of stacking everything didn't exist or wasn't even possible back during retail until in the later patches.

You're not thinking of the bigger picture if you suggest something like this. Obviously limiting world buffs makes the game harder, but you don't take away an aspect of the game to make it 'harder'. You fine tune the encounter or raid itself. No one needs buffs or flasks to clear any of this content, in fact most guilds don't go all out like this. But for many it is still an enjoyable part of the game and adds another element to raid preparation and things to do and organize outside of a raid.

You people who argue taking away Buffs and Flasks, do you even play the game, or have you recently? The content is already being farmed and cleared by most guilds without Flasking and Buff stacking. All that does is affect those "top" guilds competing for the fastest clear, and you may not play like that (neither do i actually) but we all play differently. Take away flasks and you could (should) clear any content, even Naxx for the most part, but again, not the point. It sure would help and is a interesting dynamic and lucrative option in the game that has quite a large affect on the economy and world PvP. Should we make farming something unique and rare like Black Lotus completely obsolete? 

I actually agree that Buff and Flask stacking is quite dumb, especially for a 13 year old game that we all know everything about. I consider myself and have played with many experienced and hardcore players who have stacked like this and done timed runs before. With all the server switching that has gone on over the past 3 years, and other things to occupy my and most people's time now, raiding like this for us is boring or too time consuming. We still have cleared content even through AQ without flasking or buff stacking, the only difference is the ease in which we clear and the timing of runs. Experience and then gear are more important when it come to the actual raid encounter.

This also emphasizes my first point of Nerfing content. The so called "top" guilds or the 1% (don't know why we use this, its way higher than 1%) are not always the best guilds or the "top" guilds. They are just the ones who usually clear content the fastest and compete for those speed runs on that particular server at that particular time . Like i said, after doing that over multiple servers and years, many may still play this game but we may play at a more regular pace, so if you Nerf content like @Darkrasp has mentioned, there is a vast majority if not more of experienced players who cant experience that content because they have decided to play at a more regular pace even though they are more than capable.

The "top" guilds at this point are the ones who decided to go all out and farm these Flasks and Consumables and dedicate their time. That's their right and where they get enjoyment, so no you don't take that away to make it 'harder', and no it doesn't make them the best players or guilds either.

 

  

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1 hour ago, Nocturn said:

You're not thinking of the bigger picture if you suggest something like this.

I'm not suggesting anything, just thinking aloud and criticizing Bluemoon's post for assuming that people in this thread are lazy casuals looking to influence the devs and make the game easier. :3

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12 minutes ago, Lilaina said:

I'm not suggesting anything, just thinking aloud and criticizing Bluemoon's post for assuming that people in this thread are lazy casuals looking to influence the devs and make the game easier. :3

Indeed. They're tryhards looking to influence the devs and make the game easier :P.

I always maintained that a lazy casual doesn't care, because he or she waits until a tier later and runs the raid with some farm group.

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23 hours ago, Darkrasp said:

As far as plans to buff anything beyond MC/BWL, I think I'm going to hold off on commenting on that for now.  Currently the plan is no, but we'll probably see how things go in testing and early release before we make a final decision on it.

Umm, AQ would be a walk in the park if not buffed, or am i missing something here? :ph34r:

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Posted (edited)

Btw @Darkrasp, what about the idea of randomized cooldowns for bosses? It was mentioned before, and back then it seemed like one of the best ideas proposed.

 

Edit: Sorry if you already address this in this thread. :D

Edited by Wolfrig
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4 hours ago, Lilaina said:

I'm not suggesting anything, just thinking aloud and criticizing Bluemoon's post for assuming that people in this thread are lazy casuals looking to influence the devs and make the game easier. :3

Get mad bro. 

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