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Darkrasp

Darkrasp's Blog 5/15/2017

64 posts in this topic

To expand on Darkrasp's post above: one of the main reasons raiders didn't want to bother going crazy with buffs on farm content is because of the absurd amount of time and effort it took to do. Better to play alts, do PvP or not log on as to not burn yourself out than to farm day in and day out. I can't speak for every person who raided in vanilla, but the ones I know all felt this way: raiding was fun because progress was hard and raiding was fun because farm status was the time to chill out and relax with your guild. You'd spend all that time, effort, concentration, energy and consumables on progress and you just decompressed for a few months while waiting for the next raid. I was one of the two tanks in my guild and I probably used less than 10 flasks from MC up to C'thun. Hell, a random DPS in the raid using a flask would be called crazy if we weren't really close to a server first, end boss kill.

 

Personally, I don't want raids to be tuned around being fully buffed up. Mostly because "fully buffed up" in vanilla is very different than what it was after the changes during early TBC. Being *able* to do so is all fine and dandy, but being *required* to do so to beat the content is a whole different thing. Hell, if the Crestfall team intends to make raids that hard, implementing the TBC flask/elixir changes for vanilla could be a valid path to go down on. On the other hand, I don't want it to be impossible to go crazy on buffs/consumables to get a first kill since that was a huge part of vanilla. After all, we're actually doing pretty good this attempt so I'll start using Major Mana Potions. The absolute madman!

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In my opinion the greatest thing you as developers can do without altering the game either via buffing raids or limiting Buffs/Flasks; is to significantly change the internal timers of spells and abilities of raid mobs and bosses. Raids are easy because everyone plays with with so many different addons, basically telling you what the mobs next ability is and when it is coming. People don't even look at the game they are just reading and reacting to what their addon is telling them. If you change this up, and make it so current raid addons like for example 'bigwigs' (among many others) become obsolete, people will actually have to start thinking and adapting for themselves. The tactics would be slightly different and people would have to react to the game and not the addon. 

Personally, other than some cosmetic addons for the UI or whatever id love to get rid of the countless amount of addons that take so much away from the experience of the game. Of course im not advocating that though because i understand it's just a integral part of WoW now.

And please, lol, don't be the person to reply "well just play the game without addons". That's not the point.

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Getting world buffs and Darkmoon stuff is usually a big chore due to the logistics, some people will invariably lag behind or miss them, and it takes a fair amount of time to get everything, and then if you wipe it's all for naught. From my experience those buffs mostly help clear content already on farm faster, during progression fights you will wipe and waste them.

If anything needs to be removed is the ability to enter instances with soulstone buff, things like everyone getting soulstones for C'thun was very annoying, and it also made people waste a lot of time leveling a warlock, filling bags with shards, bringing the warlock to the entrance, etc.

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5 hours ago, Darkrasp said:

Stacking world buffs, flasks, etc. is a way of reducing the relative difficulty of an encounter.  The retail philosophy was typically to use flasks and buffs only on progression content, not to waste time and resources collecting all that rubbish for content you were already farming.  Most guilds actively looked for ways to spend less time farming and less time on preparation.  The fun for us wasn't in spending four hours getting everyone buffed up so we could run Molten Core in 30 minutes, it was rather in seeing just how much we could lowball things and still clear the content. 

Farmed content meant we didn't even bother even using food buffs, much less flasks or world buffs.  Hell, half the time we didn't even bring a full raid.  A good chunk of our main raiders, myself included, stopped running Molten Core altogether by the time we'd cleared BWL, and MC became a "fun run" for alts and pugs.

I do find it somewhat paradoxical that the players who tend to complain the most about the game being too easy are largely the same ones going to absurd lengths to make the game as easy for themselves as possible.  If you're stacking your buffs and MC is too easy for you, leave your flasks in the bank, and try it with two split raids of 25 people each instead.  Challenges like that were always more fun and interesting to me than "see how much you can intentionally trivialize the content".  It's kind of the reason the Ulduar Hardmodes were widely considered the pinnacle of Blizzard's raid design thinking.  Even if the mechanics themselves were somewhat stale, the idea of "intentionally make this fight harder for yourself by doing it differently" was appealing - especially to players who'd been doing that for fun all along.

After I quit running Molten Core in Vanilla due to progressing past it, the next time I ran it was in TBC with two friends, so we could challenge ourselves to clear it with just three players.  Resto shaman, protection paladin, and frost mage.  Took us two days, and we had to swap out for a feral tank on Ragnaros (the Sons' mana burn made it impossible for a paladin tank), but we got it done, and it was one of the most rewarding and enjoyable experiences I had playing retail.  I would equate world buffing, flasking, etc. in order to get a fast time on farmed content to running through Razorfen Downs at level 60, buffed and flasked up, just aoeing everything you see.  Sure, you can do it quick, but so what?  You've completely trivialized it.  You don't get props for that.

I dunno, I suppose it appeals to some people, but I don't pretend to understand why.

This post is so spot on I can't even begin to put it into words.  I wish I could up rate it multiple times.

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Posted (edited)

vanilla is a different game.

treating it as something other than what it was is just wishful thinking. Darkrasp is on point to how it was back then. the ones screaming for challenge should try the later expansions when blizzard retracted the "laid back" raiding approach and started making everyone play better through mechanics. (hence the increase in raid difficulty from late vanilla to TBC etc with less people.) the only thing that is acceptable is tuning old content to meet the standards of the latest patch to give more "feeling" to the experience vs a faceroll one. all vanilla content is meant to be cleared.  how much time and effort you're willing to put in to achieve that depends on the players. 

 

change the flavor up and it will be fun all around for everyone. another beauty of being a PTE project, you get multiple flavors of challenge while enjoying the experience from the beginning to whatever end you want to stop at.

Edited by imbaslap
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11 hours ago, Darkrasp said:

I would equate world buffing, flasking, etc. in order to get a fast time on farmed content to running through Razorfen Downs at level 60, buffed and flasked up, just aoeing everything you see.

AND then complaining it's too easy.

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2 hours ago, Xaverius said:

AND then complaining it's too easy.

Quite often the ones complaining about content being too easy aren't the ones who are doing it fast and efficiently (by buffing and flasking) but the ones who are watching them do it and thinking it somehow conflicts with their own experience of the game.

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When those people minmaxing and squeezing as much as possible out of their usually limited time, most likely already spent long nights wiping on that same content in the past.

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Posted (edited)

On 5/17/2017 at 10:11 AM, Darkrasp said:

I do find it somewhat paradoxical that the players who tend to complain the most about the game being too easy are largely the same ones going to absurd lengths to make the game as easy for themselves as possible.  If you're stacking your buffs and MC is too easy for you, leave your flasks in the bank, and try it with two split raids of 25 people each instead.  Challenges like that were always more fun and interesting to me than "see how much you can intentionally trivialize the content".

 

On 5/17/2017 at 10:03 PM, Xaverius said:

AND then complaining it's too easy

22 hours ago, Ciar said:

Quite often the ones complaining about content being too easy aren't the ones who are doing it fast and efficiently (by buffing and flasking) but the ones who are watching them do it and thinking it somehow conflicts with their own experience of the game.

So?

Other than nostalgia and the sense of actually playing and interacting with other players, one of the many reasons people play Vanilla is to experience these old Raids while also getting all the flashy armor and weapons they can, many of whom were never able to do so back in the day or on X server. Our avatars in game are a slight reflection of who we are and represent us in game. WoW has always been about chasing that carrot on the stick, it's still a debated topic in the MMO community today. How to make that perfect MMO and should it be focused on that continuing supply line of getting gear to get more gear. Vanilla wow is just that. It is one of the original and ultimate carrot on the stick games.

Lets say hypothetically a Blizzard Dev back in 2004/2005 told some players all about World Buffs, how to get them, their usefulness and everything about pots and flasking at the start. Then changed some code and added in a patch with updated talents and stats like in 1.12. He also told everyone the strategy for every raid encounter. There would never have been any real struggle, everyone would clear all the content so fast and then be like "okay blizz, now what?" all that work the devs put in that was supposed to occupy players for months and years all just completed in a matter of days. They would have to work overtime like crazy to create new content costing them lots of time and money. The community would be in an uproar over a lack of content, many players would have complained "why is this game so easy, or where is the content" and wow would never have been the global mega hit we know it as. Imagine if the Devs said, "well just try playing the game with less buffs, or try with less people". No game is perfect, but telling a player base to challenge themselves or not make use of the knowledge that's provided rather than trying to address a certain issue is a complete ignorance and flaw in your philosophy. If it's there and people know about it they are going to exploit it, because while we want to be challenged and entertained, our egos need to be satisfied with that new gear to show it off and how fast we can get it to then spend more time getting more gear. This, whether you like it or not, is the "Carrot on the Stick" game and mentality of WoW and vanilla.

These private servers are just like that scenario above, we've tolerated it because of nostalgia and it has been very fun and entertaining still for all of us, but at this point, after years of switching servers and having to replay and farm the same gear over and over again, it's starting to get old. That's why the numbers on these servers are declining every day, and that's why people do these speed runs to keep them entertained and that's why there are in fact many guilds who actually do run 20 man MC's or Ony or 30 man or less BWL. It's very common.

The point, and why some of us like myself are excited about this project is because the devs have suggested a desire to increase the difficulty of the raid encounters (whichever way that is), which along with the other features like better scripting may finally offer something slightly new and exciting again like it was a few years ago. However, suggesting removing or limiting buffs does not solve the underlying issue; that with all our information of tactics and gear available to us (regardless of buff/flask stacking), this game is ridiculously easy. Why not get rid of rank 14 weapons from the game (this was actually a recent suggestion)? Do you realize how overpowered those weapons and the armor sets are? Doesn't change the fact that half the server is grinding out those ranks. These are all aspects of the game. You don't make or play a game and then say "well don't use them". Some may, but at the end most are just chasing that carrot.

So as a private project you can literally do anything. You can call it vanilla wow and when it launches we find we're playing minecraft, but if the ultimate goal is to re-create the most vanilla-like experience which from all the information given out there by the devs it is, then fine-tuning certain raid encounters for example to cope with the vast knowledge about the game we all have now is a great idea. Like mentioned, maybe it'l just be researching and getting the original scripting right.

Or don't. Leave it completely blizz like. I'll still play.

Edited by Nocturn
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Posted (edited)

do flaws make a game better, or do they make a game worse?

what in this case is a flaw?

is being able to completely ignore the mechanics of MC bosses before BWL comes out and turning them into AoEfests or tanknspank bosses by just dpsing em really hard with buffs and protection/restoration/free action pots a flaw?

is having flasks and potions and other such items other than potions of protection healing mana rejuvenation and dreamless sleep in the first place a flaw because some players are always going to strive to be completely buffed and flasked up everywhere they go after they hit 60, even for world wpvp?

is it a flaw that reckoning is OP in PvP if you let it stack?

is it a flaw that shamans have a higher skill ceiling than paladins?

is it a flaw that alliance is better at PvE than horde, but horde is, barring all low-skill players on both sides(which isn't actually the case), better than alliance at PvP?

was devilsaur leather a flaw? or is it better that devilsaurs are nearly extinct on servers that have an active population over 500?

was tidal charm a flaw?

Edited by Aquane
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An outlandish idea that wouldn't probably be taken by a realm that is centered around blizzlike (so this is ramblings) would be to make a type of heroic quality you could enter for the raids. Like a Crestfall tuned difficulty that could be accessible for that 1% even when a nerf is necessary to open that content to the remainder of players. Again, idle ramblings, very excited about all the progress and the attention to detail in every way.

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15 hours ago, Aquane said:

is it a flaw that alliance is better at PvE than horde, but horde is, barring all low-skill players on both sides(which isn't actually the case), better than alliance at PvP?

That's incorrect though, Alliance is also considerably better in organized PvP, once again due to paladins.

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Thanks a lot for the update. Great work you guys are doing!

 

Is there a more definite ETA for Crestfall? (excuse me if this was asked already) :)

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10 hours ago, Hybris said:

Is there a more definite ETA for Crestfall? (excuse me if this was asked already) :)

Asura is currently committed to a "2017" release, but we have not yet given any dates.

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