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Smirre

The "Horde being better in PVE during AQ and Naxx" rumor

41 posts in this topic

I've read some people claiming that after the AQ and Naxx arrives Horde as a faction would have an edge over the alliance in raiding.

Is there any truth in that? I'm asking this because i'm trying to decide which faction to roll mostly in terms of min maxing.

 

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There isn't, horde has a big advantage on Viscidus and a small one in a couple of melee/fear heavy fights but that's about it. It's true that chain heal from a geared shaman can carry a raid of baddies who stand in fire but that isn't worth mentioning. Alliance has an overwhelming advantage in all fights that matter.

Edited by Terpsichore
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It all really breaks down to one major thing: Paladins vs. Shamans - and Paladins were clearly superior for PvE. Its not exactly game-breaking considering Nihillum was a world first guild, but if you're trying to min/max raiding, roll Alliance.

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14 minutes ago, Hops said:

It all really breaks down to one major thing: Paladins vs. Shamans - and Paladins were clearly superior for PvE. Its not exactly game-breaking considering Nihillum was a world first guild, but if you're trying to min/max raiding, roll Alliance.

please roll on the PvP server while you're at it; id rather minmaxers stay off the PvE server(and that they get their own BGs)

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Fight based advantage.

 

Most of the time thought, Alliance racials don't end up doing much. Perception, Escape Artist and Shadowmeld are all equally useless in raids, Stoneform is good for tanks and saves a healer GCD for non-tanks on 3-4? vanilla fights? For Horde, War Stomp ends being somewhat useful on fights where adds are stunnable, while Blood Fury and Berserking are so-so depending on class and WotF is useful on a few fights.

 

For passive racials, Human Rogues have an advantage while Tauren Prot Warriors and Feral Druids have an advantage.

 

After that it's Paladin vs Shaman. Both classes were extremely strong in PvE and had a slew of distinct advantages for every fight. Whether that translated into Horde being better than Alliance in AQ/Naxx is probably a meaningless question as long as you ignore Viscidus.

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6 minutes ago, Aquane said:

please roll on the PvP server while you're at it; id rather minmaxers stay off the PvE server(and that they get their own BGs)

Don't you worry little buddy. I hear that on PvE servers you just /roll to see who wins the BG.

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1 hour ago, Hops said:

Don't you worry little buddy. I hear that on PvE servers you just /roll to see who wins the BG.

im not sure whether or not to be insulted, but that sounds better than premades and queue dodging... though maybe you're referring to that

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18 minutes ago, Aquane said:

im not sure whether or not to be insulted, but that sounds better than premades and queue dodging... though maybe you're referring to that

Just a little poke at PvE servers lol, nothing personal. And as for pre-mades and try hards, you're going to run into those on both servers.

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15 hours ago, Aquane said:

please roll on the PvP server while you're at it; id rather minmaxers stay off the PvE server(and that they get their own BGs)

/salt

Edited by Smirre
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18 hours ago, Aquane said:

id rather minmaxers stay off the PvE server

I'd rather they stay off Crestfall :P.

 

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1 hour ago, Njut said:

PvE is for children. 

Hear hear, you figured it out :D

We do play games to keep our inner child alive ;)

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Paladins provide a reasonable edge over Shaman buff-wise. Alliance raids have it easier because they have better buffs.

But usually the top Horde guilds are on par with the best Alliance guilds, meaning finally that Horde is better, because the same is achieved with less powerful buffs...^_^

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On ‎20‎.‎05‎.‎2017 at 0:24 AM, Zaroua said:

For passive racials, Human Rogues have an advantage while Tauren Prot Warriors and Feral Druids have an Advantage.

To my knowledge, night elf bears have the edge hear. 5 % Stamina is great of course, but Druids also dodge a lot and having 1% more Dodge is better as far as I know.

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10 hours ago, Eldarion said:

To my knowledge, night elf bears have the edge hear. 5 % Stamina is great of course, but Druids also dodge a lot and having 1% more Dodge is better as far as I know.

I mathed it out here; 

Tauren 5% stamina is slightly better than Nelfs Dodge. Taurens also have a built in ~1.15DPS advantage in cat form over a Nelf, or a 2.375 DPS increase fully buffed.

It's very marginal, and shouldn't affect your decision on race.

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13 hours ago, Elicas said:

It's very marginal, and shouldn't affect your decision on race.

How it is read from a minmaxing perspective

YbFFNFb.gif

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On 21.5.2017 at 9:32 PM, Eldarion said:

To my knowledge, night elf bears have the edge hear. 5 % Stamina is great of course, but Druids also dodge a lot and having 1% more Dodge is better as far as I know.

People that care about marginal stuff like this are also the people that would never use a druid tank for raiding anyway so it doesnt really matter.

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Ahh thought nigt elves make the better tanks. I actually like that, the bear is just more Fitting for the tauren. Though night elves should be the better cats. Just would be more Fitting.

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What i remember reading is that orcs + trolls with axes completely destroy alliance fury warriors in dps, even with the extra +weapon skill humans get. 

However I still stick to salvation > windfury. 

Whats the point of windfury if youre dps cant even go big dick damage half the time due to aggro issues. However, shamans as a long term investment is good, especially in TBC since they become the best pve healers. 

For pvp, (if youre into that) paladins are just generally better than shamans. BOF, lay on hands, bubble, auras and plate armor for survivability just makes them better.

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9 hours ago, Eldarion said:

Ahh thought nigt elves make the better tanks. I actually like that, the bear is just more Fitting for the tauren. Though night elves should be the better cats. Just would be more Fitting.

Night elves are the optimal choice for all classes and specs. Don't listen to anyone who tells you otherwise, they're just jelly cuz they can't do flips.

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Probably worth mentioning that dodge isn't a great stat in the higher tiers of PvE, especially with functioning spell delay.  Mobs hit so hard that healers can't cancel their heals or risk having the tank die from spike damage, and their heals are subject to delay, meaning they have to complete the heal to get it in the queue before they can see whether or not it's absolutely necessary.

Yes, a dodge means that you don't die, which is obviously important, but if that hit wasn't going to kill you, it's really just a waste of healer mana.  If you have a choice, you're better off with more absorption in the form of resists (including armor) and health.  For a feral tank, min-maxing, you want the Tauren HP buff.  (Note:  It's not a Stamina buff, it's an HP buff.  There is a difference.)

 

Paladins do provide better buffs than Shamans do, or more accurately, they have Kings and Salvation.  The tradeoff is no Chain Heal.  Windfury has it's advantages but only if you're not threat capped already.

I'd say that Chain Heal is page one of "Raiding for Dummies" (page two is Fear Ward) and simplifies raid healing to an absurd extent.  If you have bad healers, you want them playing Shamans.  Paladins make great tank healers but terrible group healers.  So it's really situational depending on who else is in your raid and how good they are.

Put nicely, the difference in capability between an Alliance raid and a Horde Raid has a lot more to do with the relative ability of the players than any other factor.  If you suck at the game, buying a $200 mouse and a $300 keyboard aren't going to make you any better.  Neither is picking one faction over another.  The difference is only really going to be visible at the highest level of play, in which case clearing the content isn't typically going to be enough of a challenge for faction to be a meaningful factor anyways.  You'd be rolling a specific race/class combo purely with the intention of hopefully shaving off a few seconds on a speed run, which is more likely to be decided by a string of lucky crits than anything else anyways, while hoping for those "optimal best in slot" items to drop, which they may never do.

Long story short, min-maxing is largely a waste of time and effort.  Your skill, and your luck, matter far more than your race.

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2 hours ago, Darkrasp said:

Long story short, min-maxing is largely a waste of time and effort.  Your skill, and your luck, matter far more than your race.

I agree that min-maxing is probably a giant waste of time, but I have to... I can't just not pick the best possible race for the faction that I'm playing. I can't roll an Undead Warrior when I know that being a Tauren would make me (regardless of how slightly) a superior tank. It would bother me forever. I'd feel like I intentionally gimped myself. The same goes for any class. Mage? Gnome. Priest? Dwarf. Etc.

Edit: But then again, I' m going to play a Druid, so the choice is pretty easy.

Edited by Hops
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7 hours ago, Darkrasp said:

Long story short, min-maxing is largely a waste of time and effort.  Your skill, and your luck, matter far more than your race.

So true, racial min-maxing is so over hyped and talked about and the thing is, depending on you and your guilds play style you could argue almost any race over the other. 2 quick examples, most alliance say dwarf priest is the "best" because of fear ward but many have argued that a human priest that has a passive of greater spirit is better.

Same with tanks, everyone always argues Tauren are the best because of the HP boost, well i could argue the axe skill with orcs is better since i can hold more aggro allowing me to itemize differently as well not threat capp the raid and thus ending the fight quicker. Trolls have berserking which when timed right in a fight can allow for the most threat in a fight.

Also most of min-maxing only affects early on game play through BWL (and only so slightly) and only makes a difference for the most part once you have every piece of BiS gear available to you where you are now just speed running through content to farm. once you hit AQ and especially NAXX the gear will be so dominant most of  these racials will have even less to no affect. 

Edited by Nocturn
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12 minutes ago, Nocturn said:

So true, racial min-maxing is so over hyped and talked about and the thing is, depending on you and your guilds play style you could argue almost any race over the other. 2 quick examples, most alliance say dwarf priest is the "best" because of fear ward but many have argued that a human priest that has a passive of greater spirit is better.

Same with tanks, everyone always argues Tauren are the best because of the HP boost, well i could argue the axe skill with orcs is better since i can hold more aggro allowing me to itemize differently as well not threat capp the raid and thus ending the fight quicker. Trolls have berserking which when timed right in a fight can allow for the most threat in a fight.

Also most of min-maxing only affects early on game play through BWL (and only so slightly) and only makes a difference for the most part once you have every piece of BiS gear available to you where you are now just speed running through content to farm. once you hit AQ and especially NAXX the gear will be so dominant most of  these racials will have even less to no affect. 

Gotta disagree with ya here bud. Min/maxing for Vanilla at this point is a science. There isn't much to be skeptical about anymore. While yes, you don't NEED to be any particular race, if you're trying to squeeze out every bit of dps or defense, there are concrete choices.

Priest: Fearward can not be beat - a slight healing boost (25% of a 5% increase) and a small  amount of mana regen doesn't come close to the ability to mitigate entire game mechanics.

Warrior:
- Orc is decent for DPS, but for Prot, Vanilla lacks tank axes to make use of their passive and Blood Fury is basically a suicide button.
- Trolls get a 10% speed boost for 10 (?) sec., but that's going to be negligible at best. Maybe an extra HS or two.
- What makes Tauren OP is the fact that the 5% Hp DOES scale with better gear AND buffs, trinkets, last-stand, etc. So it only gets better.

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