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Elicas

Druid DPS and Tanking - BiS Gear List (AQ40/Naxx/Resistances) and DPS Theorycrafting

28 posts in this topic

Druid DPS and Tanking - BiS Gear List (AQ40/Naxx/Resistances) and DPS Theorycrafting

Bear

Helm: Guise of the Devourer - AQ40 - Bug Trio.
Neck: Mark of C'Thun - AQ40 - C'thun
Shoulders: Highlander's/Defiler's Leather Shoulders - AV Exalted (PvP)
Back: Cryptfiend Silk Cloak - Naxxramas - Anub'Rekhan
Chest: Ghoul Skin Tunic - Naxxramas - Trash
Wrists: Technically Polar Bracers - Naxxramas - are BiS for pure mitigation, but I prefer Qiraji Execution Bracers - AQ40 - Emperor Vek'lor - which are nearly the same (+1 armour, -5 Stamina, +4 Agility) but generate significantly more threat.
Hands: Gloves of the Hidden Temple - AQ40 - Emperor Vek'nilash
Waist: Thick Qirajihide Belt - AQ40 - Battleguard Sartura
Legs: Sentinel's/Outrider's Leather Pants - WSG Exalted (PvP)
Feet: Hive Tunneler's Boots - AQ40 - Fankriss
Fingers: Ring of Emperor Vek'lor - AQ40 - Emperor Vek'lor & Signet of the Fallen Defender - Naxxramas - Instructor Razuvious
Trinkets: Mark of Tyranny - Blackrock Mountain (Quest) & Smoking Heart of the Mountain - (crafted Enchanting 265)
Idols: Idol of Brutality - Stratholme - Magistrate Barthilas
Weapons: Warden Staff - World Drop


Cat

Helm: Wolfshead Helm - Crafted - if Powershifting, otherwise Southwind Helm - AQ20 - Moam
Neck: Prestor's Talisman of Connivery - BWL - Nefarion
Shoulders: Mantle of Wicked Revenge - AQ40 - Fankriss
Back: Cloak of the Fallen God - AQ40 - C'thon
Chest: Ghoul Skin Tunic - Naxxramas - Trash
Wrists: Qiraji Execution Bracers - AQ40 - Emperor Vek'lor
Hands: Gloves of Enforcement - AQ40 - Battleguard Sartura
Waist: Belt of Never-ending Agony - AQ40 - C'thun
Legs: Leggings of Apocalypse - Naxxramas - Four Horsemen
Feet: Boots of the Vanguard - AQ20 - General Rajaxx
Fingers: Circle of Applied Force - BWL - Flamegor & Might of Cenarius - Silithus Redesign (Quest) Stalwart's Battlegear
Trinkets: Drakefang Talisman - BWL - Ebonroc & Slayer's Crest - Naxxramas - Sapphiron
Idols: Idol of Ferocity - Blackrock Depths - Roccor
Weapons: Atiesh, Greatstaff of the Guardian - Naxxramas - (Quest) is technically BiS, but far out of reach for most. Unless you can get this, The End of Dreams - Naxxramas - Grobbulus is Best in Slot.

Theorycrafting the best race for DPS & Tanking

@Darkrasp was kind enough to give me screengrabs of pure naked level 60 Druid stats, allowing us to use the above BiS DPS gear list to give us our total end game stats.

Screenshot_2.png  Screenshot_3.png

As we can see, both races are close to identical at end game stats when naked. Taurens have a minor AP advantage (((70*2)*1.2)+(55*1) 223AP in Cat with 5/5 HotW for a Tauren vs ((62*2)*1.2 + (65*1) 213.8 for a Night Elf), Night Elves have a minor Crit advantage (3.25% naked vs 2.75% for a Tauren).

The total stats in absolute BiS (powershifting) are;

Strength: 159
Agility: 192
Stamina: 160
Intellect: 18
Spirit: 10
Hit%: 4
Crit%: 5
Additional AP: 142
Weapon Damage AP (1 damage = 14AP): +4 (56 AP)
Feral AP: 305

Including the extra 3% crit from Leader of the Pack, that gives us a Cat Form (1.2*Strength) self buffed (MotW +12 all stats) total of;

Night Elf                                                                                                                             Tauren

Strength:                                     279.6 (559.2 AP)                                                                                                                    289.2  (578.4 AP)
Agility:                                        257 (257 AP)                                                                                                                         247 (247 AP)
Stamina:                                     229*10 = +2290 HP                                                                                                               (232*10)*1.05 = +2436 HP
Intellect:                                      118 = +1180 mana                                                                                                                113 = +1130 mana
Spirit:                                         120                                                                                                                                     122
Hit%:                                          4%                                                                                                                                     4%
Crit%:                                         5% natural + 5% + (257*0.05) +3% = 25.85%                                                                            5% natural + 5% + (247*0.05) +3% = 25.35%
Additional AP:                               142                                                                                                                                      142
Feral AP:                                      305                                                                                                                                      305

DPS

Night Elf: 1263.2 AP & 25.85% crit chance.
Tauren: 1272.4 AP & 25.35% crit chance.

As you can see, theoretical self buffed top end stats are nearly identical, with a 9.2 AP difference and a 0.5% crit difference. This means our theoretical best end game DPS will rely on the buffs each faction can bring.

Horde: +100 AP (Trueshot Aura), Strength of Earth Totem +77 Strength ((77*2)*1.2) 184.8 AP, Grace of Air Totem +77 Agility (77*1) 77 AP & 3.85% crit chance, Druids in feral forms DO NOT BENEFIT FROM WINDFURY TOTEM.
Alliance: +100 AP (Trueshot Aura), Blessing of Kings (10% all stats), Blessing of Might +185 AP,

This gives us total of;

Horde: + 361.8 AP & 3.85% crit chance.
Alliance: + 285 AP static, plus an additional Strength = (279.6*0.1)*2 = 55.92 AP, Agility = (257*0.1)*1 = 25.7 AP, Agility = (257*0.1)*0.05 = 1.285% crit.

This gives us a melee buffed total (without consumables) of;

Night Elf: 1629.82 AP & 27.135% crit chance.
Tauren: 1634.2 AP & 29.2% crit chance.

Using 14AP = 1 DPS and 1% crit = 1 DPS, this means the Tauren has an innate advantage over the Night Elf of; 0.31 DPS from AP and 2.065 DPS from crit, for a total advantage of 2.375 DPS.

Therefore, it doesn't matter which race you choose for DPS. Personal consumable usage and your raids buff stacking (uptime on blessings and totems) will have more of an effect on your theoretical max DPS than your race choice.

Tanking

 Using the above BiS list, we can calculate the numbers for our tanking set as follows;

Strength: 110
Agility: 148
Stamina: 279
Intellect: 0
Spirit: 0
Hit%: 4
Crit%: 3
Dodge%: 4
Defense Skill: 36
Armour: 2938

Including the extra 3% crit from Leader of the Pack, that gives us a Bear Form (1.2*Stamina) self buffed (MotW +12 all stats) total of;

Night Elf                                                                                                                             Tauren

Strength:                                      172 = 344 AP                                                                                                                       180 = 360 AP
Agility:                                         225 = 0 AP                                                                                                                          203 = 0 AP
Stamina:                                      360*12 = +4320 HP                                                                                                               (351*12)*1.05 = +4422.6 HP
Intellect:                                       100 = +1000 mana                                                                                                                95 = +950 mana
Spirit:                                          120                                                                                                                                     122
Hit%:                                           4%                                                                                                                                     4%
Crit%:                                          5% natural + 3% + (213*0.05) +3% = 21.65%                                                                           5% natural + 3% + (203*0.05) +3% = 21.15%
Dodge%:                                      4 + 1 + (213/20) = 20.65%                                                                                                     4 + (203/20) = 19.15%
Armour:                                       2938+(2938*3.5) + (225*2) = 13,671                                                                                          2938+(2938*3.5) + (203*2) = 13,627

Combining Health by Armour gives us a very rough value of;

Night Elf: 4320 + 13,671 = 17,991 "points".
Tauren: 4422.6 + 13,627 = 18,049.6 "points".

When we factor in Dodge at the rate of 1% dodge =100 "points", that gives us;

Night Elf: 4320 + 13,671 + 16.65% dodge chance. = 19,656 "points".
Tauren: 4422.6 + 13,627 + 15.15% dodge chance. = 19,615.8 "points".

As you can see, theoretical self buffed top end stats are nearly identical, with a 253.8 HP difference and a 1.5% dodge difference. This means our theoretical best end game effectiveness will rely on the buffs each faction can bring.

Horde:  Grace of Air Totem +77 Agility (77*s) 154 Armour & 3.85% dodge chance.
Alliance: Blessing of Kings (10% all stats), Agility = 213*1.10 = 234.3 = 21.3*2 = 42.6 Armour Boost & 213*1.10 = 21.3/20 = 1.065% dodge boost, Stamina = (360*12)*1.10 = +432 HP.

This gives us a tanking buffed total (without consumables) of;

Night Elf: 4752 HP + 13,689.6 Armour + 16.715% Dodge chance.
Tauren: 4573.8 HP + 13,781 Armour + 18% Dodge chance.

Using 1 HP = 1 point, 1 Armour = 1 point and 1% dodge = 100 points , this means the Tauren has an innate advantage over the Night Elf of;

Night Elf: 20,113.1 "points".
Tauren: 20,154.8 "points".

Or a difference of 41.7 effective "tank points".

Therefore, it doesn't matter which race you choose for Tanking. Personal consumable usage and your raids buff stacking (uptime on blessings and totems) will have more of an effect on your theoretical max Effective Health than your race choice.

Resistance Fights

There are many resistance based fights in Vanilla, though the importance of Resistance gear is usually over-emphasized, due to the difference it makes during early progression (mandatory) compared to when you have things on farm status (no raid in T3 needs a max FR geared tank for Ragnaros for example). There are fewer fights that require maxed resistances than many people remember. The maximum resistance cap is 315 (including buffs) and that reduces your incoming damage from that source by around 75%. It is important to note that on a correctly working server that not all buffs stack with one another. On a correctly working server with blizzlike buff stacking, Aura's, Shaman Totems, raid buffs like Gift of the Wild and Prayer of Shadow Protection and Magic Resistance Potions DO NOT STACK WITH EACH OTHER. Only the highest is used (usually the +60 aura or aspect). As a general rule, some resistance is always better than none, so if you don't significantly outgear the fire damage that is incoming then it is worth it to wear whatever you have, even if you dont reach the 315 cap. This is where Bears really come into their own, since most Resistance gear consists of Armour, Stamina and the resistance. Warrior tanks are usually at a disadvantage here, as they lose much of their +defense bonus, it is usually a juggling act to try and maintain as much defense as they can with the resistance. For us, Stamina and Armour are our two main tanking stats, allowing us to tank at full effectiveness even in a Resistance set. Our innate higher health pools and threat generation also allows us to significantly boost our effectiveness in these encounters.

Fire Resistance

Fire resistance is needed on several bosses, mainly when tanking Ragnaros (MC), Vaelastrasz the Corrupt (BWL) and Onyxia (315) especially before your healers are geared. While it is possible to tank without FR gear, you will need to generally overgear the instance significantly to do so.

With one Aura (60), a Juju (15) and both enchants (40) you will need a total of 200 Fire Resistance on your gear in order to reach the FR cap.

Helm: Molten Helm (+29) - Crafted (leatherworking)
Neck: Drakefire Amulet (+15) - (Quest) Onyxia Attunement
Shoulders: Fireguard Shoulders (+22) - MC - Majordomo Executus
Back: Wildfire Cape (+20) - UBRS - Pyroguard Emberseer is technically BiS with the highest FR, but Onyxia Scale Cloak (+16) is mandatory for several bosses in BWL, and the difference between them is negligible.
Chest: Black Ash Robe (cloth) (+30) - BWL - Firemaw
Wrists: Cinderhide Armsplints (+10) with Stamina - BRD - Incendius
Hands: Flarecore Gloves (cloth) (+25) - Crafted (tailoring)
Waist: Lave Belt (+26) - Crafted (leatherworking)
Legs: Volcanic Leggings (+20) - Crafted (leatherworking)
Feet: Corehound Boots (+24) - Crafted (leatherworking)
Fingers: Opal Ring (+22) - World Drop, not unique, wear 2x if needed.
Trinkets: Onyxia Blood Talisman (+15) - Onyxia & Blazing Emblem (+15) - World Drop.
Idols: None
Weapons: Sulfuras, Hand of Ragnaros (+30) - MC - Ragnaros is technically BiS, but also unlikely for you to get. Elemental Mage Staff (+20) - World Drop is next BiS, but also expensive and with no stats of real usefulness on it. That makes Finkle's Lava Dredger (+15) - MC - Majordomo Executus the most reasonable drop to get.
Enchants: +20 FR on helm, +20 FR on legs, +15 FR on Cloak.
Buffs: Mark of the Wild (20), Shaman Totem (60), Paladin Aura (60), Juju Ember (15)

Since we want to maximise the amount of FR we get per peace of equipment (allowing us to wear normal tank drops in other slots) while minimising the amount of cloth drops we wear and maximising aura bonuses and enchants, we get the following list to reach 315;

Aura/Totem: +60, Juju +15, meaning we need 240 resistance from gear to reach cap.

Helm: +49 (75+49 = 124)
Neck: +15 (139)
Shoulders: +22 (161)
Cloak: +31 (192)
Waist: +26 (218)
Legs: +40 (258)
Feet: +24 (282)
Finger x1: +22 (304)
Weapon: +15 (319 - capped)

This shows we can reach FR cap with just 9 pieces of gear, without needing to wear any of the cloth BiS pieces from BWL. This means our list can all be crafted before we reach Ragnaros.

When we compare our gear list above to the comparable stage Warrior gear list of;

Helm: Dark Iron Helm (+35)
Neck: Drakefire Amulet (+15)
Shoulders: Dark Iron Shoulders (+10)
Back: Onyxia Scale Cloak (+16)
Chest: Dark Iron Plate (+19)
Wrists: Dark Iron Bracers (+19)
Hands: Dark Iron Gauntlets (+28)
Waist: Belt of Might (+7)
Legs: Dark Iron Leggings (+30)
Feet: Dark Iron Boots (+30)
Fingers: Opal Ring (+22 x2)
Trinkets: Onyxia Blood Talisman (+15) & Royal Seal of Eldre'Thalas (+10)
Weapons: Draconian Deflector (+10)

If we take the same list as Bears in order to maximise FR while minimizing the amount of pieces being worn we have;

Aura/Totem: +60, Juju +15, meaning we need 240 resistance from gear to reach cap.

Helm: +55 (75+55 = 130)
Neck: +15 (145)
Back: +31 (176)
Wrists: +19 (195)
Legs: +50 (245)
Feet: +30 (275)
Finger x1: +22 (297)
Trinket x2: +25 (322 - capped)

We now see that it looks like Druids have a disadvantage, in that Warriors also only need to wear 9 pieces of gear and they are naturally stronger tanks. In reality though, due to the lack of stats on warrior gear compared to druid gear, we actually have a significant advantage. Totalling the Stamina and Armour from each above set (the important parts, since neither will be defence capped in the above gear) and including the warrior 10% damage reduction (ignoring the 10% bonus armour from talents since both will have it), we get;

Druid: (111*12) 1,332 Health + 905+(905*3.6) 4,163 armour = 5,495 "points" from our resistance set.
Warrior: ((58*10) 580 health + 2928 armour) * 1.10 (defensive stance) = 3,858.8 "points" from their resistance set.

As you can see from the above scores, Bear tanks have a significant advantage when tanking resistance based damage (+1636.2 in the example above). This is the case with every resistance set. Bears are the kings of Resistance tanking, except on fights where the enemy has significant crushing/critting auto attacks, such as Princess Huhuran during Enrage at 30%.

Nature Resistance

Nature resistance is useful for many fights in Ahn'Qiraj, however it is only truly mandatory for 15 players on Princess Huhuran for Poison Bolt soaking. It can be worth using it on everyone in case of deaths and to reduce the damage from her Noxious Poison ability.. Nature resistance is harder to get, since it does not have a corresponding Juju, Paladin Aura or Shaman Totem. Hunters however supply an equal (60) aspect, so you will require a hunter in every Tank/Melee group.

Helm: Bramblewood Helm (+30) - Crafting (leatherworking)
Neck: Amulet of Foul Warding (+20) - AQ40 - Prophet Skeram
Shoulders: Unnatural Leather Spaulders (+25) - World Boss - Taerar
Back: Green Dragonskin Cloak (+20) - World Boss - Dragons of Nightmare, Gaea's Embrace (+20) is much easier to get, as it is crafted by leatherworkers.
Chest: Robes of the Triumvirate (+30) - AQ40 - Bug Trio
Wrists: Beetle Scaled Wristguards (+15) - AQ40 - Prophet Skeram
Hands: Bild-Covered Gauntlets (+20) - AQ40 - Bug Trio (Yauj)
Waist: Belt of the Dark Bog (+25) - World Boss - Lethon
Legs: Cenarion Reservists Leggings (+25) - Quest - Armaments of War
Feet: Bramblewood Boots (+25) - Crafting (leatherworking)
Fingers: Opal Ring x2 (+22) - World Drop - non unique
Trinkets: Loathebs Reflection (+13) - Naxxramas - Loatheb or Heart of Noxxion x2 (+10) - Maraudon - Noxxion - non unique
Idols: None
Weapons: Technically Staff of Rampant Growth (+20) - World Boss - Dragons of Nightmare is BiS, but it would be ridiculous to take that from a healer. Glowing Brightwood Staff - World Drop is much more realistic.
Enchants: +10 NR Helm, +10 NR Legs,
Buffs: Mark of the Wild (20), Aspect (60)

Frost Resistance


Helm: Polar Helm (+44) - Naxxramas - Gothik the Harvester
Neck: Touch of Frost (+24) - Naxxramas - Anub'rekhan
Shoulders: Polar Shoulder Pads (+33) - Naxxramas - Faerlina
Back: Glacial Cloak (+24) - Crafting (tailoring)
Chest: Polar Tunic (+40) - Crafting (leatherworking)
Wrists: Polar Bracers (+20) - Crafting (leatherworking)
Hands: Polar Gloves (+ 30) - Crafting (leatherworking)
Waist: Frostbite Girdle (+10) - Scholomance - Ras Frostwhisper
Legs: Polar Leggings (+40) - (Quest) - Naxxramas
Feet: Frostsaber Boots (+12) - Crafting (leatherworking)
Fingers: Ramaladni's Icy Grip (+25) - (Quest) - Naxxramas
Trinkets: Loatheb's Reflection (+13) - Naxxramas - Loatheb & Stormpike Insignia R6 - Exalted AV (PvP)
Idols: None
Weapons: Again, Elemental Mage Staff (+20) - World Drop - is technically BiS, But Hydrocane (+15) - Gnomeregan - Viscidous - is much easier to farm and very close to EMS in stats. The ilvl makes no difference, since we don't use weapon damage for our dps.
Enchants: +10 FR Helm, +5 FR Shoulders, +10 FR Legs, 
Buffs: Mark of the Wild (20), Totem (60), Aura (60), Juju Chill (15)

Edited by Elicas
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Elicas, this is a thing of beauty.  An equivalent list for warriors/paladins and anyone that chooses to tank here will know exactly what to farm for/craft/buy in order to do the job properly.  Looking at the plate resistance gear, it seems you have to frequently choose between either armor/resistance, OR defense.  It seems impossible to cap both at the same time.  In that case, what's the priority?  Does it depend on the fight?  I never raided vanilla so I have no idea how important the defense stat is against say, Onyxia, Ragnaros, Geddon, or Vael compared to other bosses.  Also, I know shadow resist is hard to come by, but it has moments of usefulness.  Are there bosses where it's important enough to gather a few pieces?

Edited by Humperdink
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Right @Elicas You are banned from posting for the next 7 days, take a break mate and take your wife to Star Trek or summat. >:(:P

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40 minutes ago, Humperdink said:

Elicas, this is a thing of beauty.  An equivalent list for warriors/paladins and anyone that chooses to tank here will know exactly what to farm for/craft/buy in order to do the job properly.  Looking at the plate resistance gear, it seems you have to frequently choose between either armor/resistance, OR defense.  It seems impossible to cap both at the same time.  In that case, what's the priority?  Does it depend on the fight?  I never raided vanilla so I have no idea how important the defense stat is against say, Onyxia, Ragnaros, Geddon, or Vael compared to other bosses.  Also, I know shadow resist is hard to come by, but it has moments of usefulness.  Are there bosses where it's important enough to gather a few pieces?

I'll let someone else handle Warriors and Paladins, I'm pretty much dedicated to rolling Druid now.

It isn't impossible to cap both Defense/Resistance on a Warrior, since much of their Tier gear has resistances on as well. It does however, require absolutely BiS in every slot. They just do not have the flexibility a Druid does. To my knowledge, Paladins can never cap both a resistance and defence.

Shadow resistance is only really stacked for the Loatheb fight in Naxxramas.

6 minutes ago, Outstanding said:

Right @Elicas You are banned from posting for the next 7 days, take a break mate and take your wife to Star Trek or summat. >:(:P

Lol :P

Just finished the Theorycrafting part about max possible stats and race choices as well. That took me a good 50 minutes or so.

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Taurens #masterrace. Come to the dark side, we have cookies. B|

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2 minutes ago, Joyman said:

Taurens #masterrace. Come to the dark side, we have cookies. B|

Technically, Nelf master race when it comes to tanking :P

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Edit: Never mind, the math on my notepad was actually wrong while the math in the post is correct.

Taurens are slightly better DPS and Tanks in nearly every gearing situation.

However, the difference is minimal.

Edited by Elicas
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no one likes moo moos.. sorry to break it to you. if I could, id be a female gnome druid.. but I cant. :(

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4 hours ago, Humperdink said:

Elicas, this is a thing of beauty.  An equivalent list for warriors/paladins and anyone that chooses to tank here will know exactly what to farm for/craft/buy in order to do the job properly.  Looking at the plate resistance gear, it seems you have to frequently choose between either armor/resistance, OR defense.  It seems impossible to cap both at the same time.  In that case, what's the priority?  Does it depend on the fight?  I never raided vanilla so I have no idea how important the defense stat is against say, Onyxia, Ragnaros, Geddon, or Vael compared to other bosses.  Also, I know shadow resist is hard to come by, but it has moments of usefulness.  Are there bosses where it's important enough to gather a few pieces?

 

Speaking about Defense for Plate and Resistance my 2 cents .

Bosses that require huge amount of Resistance does not require Defense Cap and are easy doable without.

Example Ragnaros it require huge amount of Fire Resistance while Defense is not important at all here.

Princess Huhuran require some certain amount of Nature Resistance but this number can be collected by World Bosses,AQ40 because they have Nature Resistance+Defense in stats+Hunter NR Aura.

Viscidus require NR cap but it does not hit with Melee, it is only Nature damage.

 

p.s when you search for items that consist Resistance don't forget to take into account Boss Mechanic and Items from World Bosses.

 

And regarding Topic , Druid doesn't need Def Cap because it can build up Armor Cap and huge amount of HP . This make Druid eat 25% of the Damage only compare to Warr/Paladins that have extremely hard time to reach 60% Damage Reduction .  "Don't forget the level difference and Armor" in order to be Armor Cap "75%" against Boss target you need to have 80% ++ Damage Reduction from your Armor which is impossible for other Tanks except Druid.

Druid also have Tremendous amount of Dodge and this gives him advantage over other Classes .

It is Risky to predict when he will eat shots but easier to heal due to Huge HP Pool and lot of Armor.

 

Druid Tank in my opinion regarding Surviving is all about Stamina>Armor>Dodge>Agility.

Druid Tank in my opinion regarding Threats is all about Hit Cap>Critical> Attack Power> Agility>Strength.

 

Druid Feral (Cat) is all about Hit Cap>Critical>Attack Power. (if you have lower than 30% Crit +6% Consumes = 36% Hard Cap).

Druid Feral (Cat) is all about Hit Cap>Attack Power>Critical. (if you have 30% Crit  + 6% Consumes = 36% Hard Cap).

 

Edited by Killerduki
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1 hour ago, imbaslap said:

no one likes moo moos.. sorry to break it to you. if I could, id be a female gnome druid.. but I cant. :(

Moo moos are graet

Haters gonna haet

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On 7/22/2016 at 10:42 PM, myrnym said:

Moo moos are graet

Haters gonna haet

Everyone likes staek.

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8 hours ago, Elicas said:

Everyone likes staek.

Best way to keep monsters busy!

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Any thoughts on Frost resistance? I noticed that section is missing an introductory blurb—sadly I've only bear tanked naxx in wrath, so I imagine our requirements are different here. When do we really need Frost resist, and when is it nice but not necessary?

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12 hours ago, Chiasmus said:

Any thoughts on Frost resistance? I noticed that section is missing an introductory blurb—sadly I've only bear tanked naxx in wrath, so I imagine our requirements are different here. When do we really need Frost resist, and when is it nice but not necessary?

Generally - It's not needed until Naxx, by which time any feral dedicated enough to still actually be tanking knows the fights they'll need it for and when it's required. Essentially, Saphiron.

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10 hours ago, Taladril said:

Hmm credit where credit is due pls.

Complete druid bis list

Certainly a handy tool, though a lot of critical pieces it seem were hard to give a rating for on your system, hence things like Wolfhead having a 0 rating for DPS.

I did not however pull this BiS list from there, I've had a similar looking spreadsheet since my Feenix days, same as @Lufhtrae and his Boomkin spreadsheet.

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Posted (edited)

On 3/20/2017 at 3:50 AM, Taladril said:

Hmm credit where credit is due pls.

Complete druid bis list

That's a neat list of gear, but I have two thoughts.

1. There's no concrete proof behind these calculations for the rating: calculating DPS is very complex, so some explanation here would be nice

2. You did not indicate which patch these gear of list is from: not all servers run the same patch

 

Otherwise, everyone has public access to the same data set so it's a bit difficult to claim that your own work is original. Have you considered this part before releasing your work to the public? Transparency is very important in this process of acclamation and I have no desire to deny this part from you. If you like to hear more back from me, contact me anytime.

Edited by Lufhtrae
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2 hours ago, Lufhtrae said:

That's a neat list of gear, but I have two thoughts.

1. There's no concrete proof behind these calculations for the rating: calculating DPS is very complex, so some explanation here would be nice

2. You did not indicate which patch these gear of list is from: not all servers run the same patch

 

Otherwise, everyone has public access to the same data set so it's a bit difficult to claim that your own work is original. Have you considered this part before releasing your work to the public? Transparency is very important in this process of acclamation and I have no desire to deny this part from you. If you like to hear more back from me, contact me anytime.

Very true to all. My post is definitely an assumption but I see the OP and see a heck of a lot of gear that is listed. When I first started working on the list I did as much searching as I could and only got limited lists here or there and those that I did find also didn't even link to vanilla db. So there was a lot of copying but also a lot of reprocessing and relinking that I had to do. The point of it is the OPs list is manually put in the forum and would have taken a long time to do. I would be surprised if he/she did it just by doing random searching or manually looking at old lists since by doing so my list would come up easily. It's been out for a year and a half. If I did it (and I did) I start by searching far and wide for the best and easiest data possible before trying to reinvent the wheel.

https://forum.nostalrius.org/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=18336 and https://forum.elysium-project.org/topic/22777-complete-druid-bis-list-for-resto-bear-and-cat/ track the progression of what's gone into it if you are curious. TLDR is the list is 1.12 itemization and it's a guideline, not something set in stone so you can interpret it as you will. However the values are based on what is out there in the community. Are the values perfect? Probably not. But from experience I can tell you it's better than a rough guess. They are pretty much right.

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36 minutes ago, Taladril said:

Very true to all. My post is definitely an assumption but I see the OP and see a heck of a lot of gear that is listed. When I first started working on the list I did as much searching as I could and only got limited lists here or there and those that I did find also didn't even link to vanilla db. So there was a lot of copying but also a lot of reprocessing and relinking that I had to do. The point of it is the OPs list is manually put in the forum and would have taken a long time to do. I would be surprised if he/she did it just by doing random searching or manually looking at old lists since by doing so my list would come up easily. It's been out for a year and a half. If I did it (and I did) I start by searching far and wide for the best and easiest data possible before trying to reinvent the wheel.

https://forum.nostalrius.org/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=18336 and https://forum.elysium-project.org/topic/22777-complete-druid-bis-list-for-resto-bear-and-cat/ track the progression of what's gone into it if you are curious. TLDR is the list is 1.12 itemization and it's a guideline, not something set in stone so you can interpret it as you will. However the values are based on what is out there in the community. Are the values perfect? Probably not. But from experience I can tell you it's better than a rough guess. They are pretty much right.

Thanks for your honest reply :) appreciate it. You are correct that values are debatable and unproven so this is exactly what I'm working on at the moment with my excel spreadsheet. Hopefully, I'll be able to complete my spreadsheet in other month. I've been working on finding reliable sources to do this and hopefully I'll be able to help you with this. Keep in touch, @Taladril

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1 hour ago, Taladril said:

@Lufhtrae I hope you noticed this link: https://forum.nostalrius.org/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=36638

If you are working on moonkin stuff then there's a lot of information in there. Even if it might not be right the discussion was well worth reading.

It's a nice list with good information, but again it's just a mere list of gear that does not explain the concept of stat weighting. My focus is not building a list of gear and then determine for myself but to help people understand the concept of picking a specific gear over other. This requires understanding the actual mechanics that Blizzard devised in Vanilla, and this means a lot of digging ;) theorycrafters back in 2004-2006 was very rare so access to good information is difficult. That's my project right now to dig up the right information that provides concrete perspective on game mechanics and druid mechanics.

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My point of linking that is the experiments that were being conducted to generate stat weights. The top comment is only a rough summary from one person. The most useful information is from the user Keftenk.

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@Elicas Do u play BC as moonking? What do u think about them in late expansion?

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