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Aquane

Faction Imbalance

42 posts in this topic

this isn't quite what i meant by faction imbalance, but this works too

I guess all it'd take to balance out the factions is to give +5 mace skill to tauren, and reduce blessing of kings to +7% bonus stats, and cap reckoning at 1 stack

and give horde archers in their AV towers and some more guards in AV's horde base since they dont have a bridge thats difficult to hike around(which is easily stopped)

I guess the bridge can stay because you can hike around it and because theres a chokepoint that the horde can use around... wherever commander karl phillips is

Edited by Aquane
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5 hours ago, Avila said:

...and unless balance is artificially restored (by forbidding new character creation for the over-represented side, for example), that is that.

I agree wholeheartedly with your post, though I wonder: why would forbidding new character creation for the over-represented side not be a decently good enough measure? Do you believe we could potentially make a strong case to the Crestfall team to support this kind of intervention? Or would they likely not even consider this? You seemed to move on from the idea pretty quickly.

The reason I ask is because it seems perfectly reasonable to me, but I might be overlooking something as I don't have much experience thinking about these issues. Although it might not be a full solution, I believe it would definitely help restore the balance significantly. I especially don't see a problem with forbidding new character creation for one faction on an already pretty fully populated server which has been running for a long time, since I assume this kind of imbalance piles up over time and doesn't likely occur early on in a server's lifetime. If anything, I imagine it could only stimulate new character creation on the newer, less populated servers.

Would love to hear your thoughts on why you dismissed this possible measure seemingly without a second thought.

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There was no problem with faction imbalance on vanilla private servers so far. You're debating a completely artificial problem here.

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4 hours ago, Avila said:

@Veritch I wasn't talking about WoW specifically - the point is that even if devs somehow manage to create two factions that are perfectly balanced, all it takes to destroy it is player perception of some imagined advantage. The only way to circumvent this is to go the "chess route" and simply mirror one side 1:1, taking 90% of the fun out of any MMO: Players want their faction identity.

I agree with you absolutely.  Personally, I think vanilla wow is just fine. I wouldn't even change the archers in AV, I was just pointing that out, and I'll roll horde.  

 

Truth be told, I hated it when they let alliance be shaman and horde be paladins.  I preferred the sides being distinct in that way.  I think part of vanillas charm was some of the inequity as well as some of the perceived inequities where there really wasn't.  It was something of a glue that united each side to their group, "knowing" the other side had it so much easier (the alliance did, btw haha).  Anyways, I'm totally on your side dude.

Edited by Veritch
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From where does the assumption that there will be a faction balance come from? Nostalrius was live for a year and had 47/53 faction balance?


What i could find on archive: 
http://web.archive.org/web/20151017160848/https://en.nostalrius.org/ - 17/10/2015 52.6/47.4 A/H
http://web.archive.org/web/20160113203624/http://www.nostalrius.org:80/ - 13/01/2016 46.3/53.7 A/H

edit: Found some old data.

Edited by yeyeftw
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21 hours ago, Ester said:

Prot Warrior also

Prot warriors are maybe the least class in demand for raiding. Each raid needs 2-3 (which are players with VERY high attendance) and has other fury warriors who mostly also have tanking gear either for OT or for replacement. If one of the prot wars stops playing, they simple promote one of the DPS wars to tank and recruit another fury war.

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@DrNeanderthal In my opinion, artificially limiting the creation of characters on one faction doesn't address the core problem: Faction imbalance is a problem on PvP servers because it keeps the weaker faction from enjoying the game to a varying degree of impact. If you simply close off access to one faction, it doesn't automatically mean the other faction gets all those players that otherwise would have chosen the stronger side, because people usually choose a specific faction for a reason; Some want to play with friends, others like a specific race, or flair, or they like the quests better, or they're fed up with not being able to access MC because the other faction keeps it guarded 24/7, or are just fed up with being steamrolled wherever they go - just to name a few.

Sure: You will keep one side from growing if you limit character creation to one faction, but it comes with a potentially heavy cost: That dude that can't play with his friends may quit the game altogether. Depending on how close that friendship is, those friends might quit the game to be able to play with their buddy as well. Or they quit the server and seek out one with a better faction balance. Numbers-wise, this looks good: One faction lost a number of players, making the opposing side that much stronger. But practically, you just gave players a Bad Experience, and may have lost those players altogether, which no server should strive for. If you're very lucky, they started on another server of your project, but even in that case, they now might contribute a bit to a faction imbalance on that new server. That's not to say that closing off a faction doesn't work - but it comes with a cost that has to be factored in.

The reason I moved on relatively fast is because faction imbalance is not much of an issue on a PvE server, which I'll be rolling on anyhow. But I do like PvP (just not WoW's), so the topic is of some interest to me on a bigger-than-WoW level, and I enjoy rambling on about game mechanics, especially when there's human psychology involved. The potential solutions to severe faction imbalance in a two-faction system usually come with pretty hefty draws - you either fiddle with game systems, or the freedom of players to choose, or even the whole flair and ambiance of your setting (the Paladin-Shaman switcheroo of TBC), which is why discussing them in detail is very time-consuming; There's just so many facets of every single potential measure - and yet they remain flawed solutions because they're artificial and need constant monitoring as well as they're liable to draw the ire of your player base. That's why I pointed out the three-faction system, because that one tends to balance itself out naturally (unless you design one faction so much better than the other two that over 50% of your player base end up in that faction). Interestingly enough, Blizzard tried a form of "artificial third party" with Wintergrasp, where the numerically disadvantaged group gets buffed: The "third, balancing" party is the buff system. Didn't work very well, because, again, it's an artificial system that simply cannot do what a real, player-steered faction can (work together to bring a dominant faction to heel); But Blizzard did at least understand that a third balancing block of sorts was necessary.

 

@VeritchI'm in the same boat, concerning the availability of Shaman and Paladins; The reason I fell in love with WoW originally was the very fact that both factions offered significantly different experiences: Entirely different quests, entirely different races, and even faction-specific classes (with their own, unique quests!). That core design was why I stayed subbed to WoW through the entirety of Vanilla: Not only did it take time and commitment to get anywhere on your main, but even when you were bored of that, you could hop onto an alt and have an entirely fresh experience! As someone playing a Human Priest, I was pretty jelly of Dorfen priests, and everybody in my raid group moaned about every encounter with a fear mechanic ever, because "Horde ez mode Tremor Totem". Our own BoS? "Eh, nice, but we could do without". Which, of course, was significantly understating the taking the edge off nearly every encounter that BoS provides (without having to worry about totem range). That thing is stupidly good.

...I'll still be rolling Horde, because Horde is where the heart is.

Edited by Avila
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2 hours ago, Avila said:

I'll still be rolling Horde, because Horde is where the heart is.

That's only because your warlocks cut it out of Comar Villard. Give it back!

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3 hours ago, Xaverius said:

That's only because your warlocks cut it out of Comar Villard. Give it back!

It's not mine, but it's real.

*licks heart* And I'm never giving it back.

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19 hours ago, Avila said:

two factions that are perfectly balanced, all it takes to destroy it is player perception of some imagined advantage. The only way to circumvent this is to go the "chess route" and simply mirror one side 1:1

The white side is more OP actually, or so I've been told. :P

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The problem is unsolvable.  The player base will never accept tinkering with the racials, and individual players will never flip factions against their own desires simply to make the game better.  The experience we all had when WoW first launched was made great by a general ignorance of how ridiculous the racials are in small scale/solo pvp.

For you poor Alliances sods out there, get into a guild that's serious about world pvp.  It's easy to forget how bad the leveling experience was when you're smashing horde raids, held fast by a line of (holy) Paladins, who are invulnerable metal gods.

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I wouldn't mind to see some changes to paladins/shamans/racials, in fact I would welcome them. The short term baby fit over a few changes is well worth it when you consider the server's overall life, pretty much every single vanilla server fell victim to this, stagnated and declined.

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Hey guys. I've asked the devs to clarify whether or not they have any plans to do anything regarding faction balance in the next Q&A.

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btw does anyone know if you can choose both alliance and horde on one account? I mean having a 60 paladin and having a 60 shaman for example?

I think I read it somewhere but I am not sure what the descision was.

 

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7 minutes ago, Budge said:

btw does anyone know if you can choose both alliance and horde on one account? I mean having a 60 paladin and having a 60 shaman for example?

I think I read it somewhere but I am not sure what the descision was.

 

Last I heard we'll be restricted to one faction on the PVP realm. No such restrictions will be applied to the PVE realm.

Again, last I heard. Do forgive me if I have slept through some important announcement on the subject.

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38 minutes ago, VeloxBanks said:

Last I heard we'll be restricted to one faction on the PVP realm. No such restrictions will be applied to the PVE realm.

Again, last I heard. Do forgive me if I have slept through some important announcement on the subject.

ok so this means that if I want to have a horde TBC char on the pvp realm, but I roll alliance for vanilla, I have to make a 2nd account to be able to do so.

Do you remember if it is legal to have 2 accounts and to play with them at the same time (not multiboxing )

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Accounts should be 1 faction only on PvP realms to prevent dirty Horde spies from infiltrating the Alliance and reporting our world pvp plans to their trade chat. Having access to both alliance and horde characters in vanilla (on PvP realms) isn't blizzlike either I guess because most people wouldn't pay for 2 separate accounts. So I say prevent people from playing two factions period, even on multiple accounts since they're free. That should also make the faction balance in TBC better when rerolling Horde for better racials wouldn't be possible if you chose Alliance during vanilla.

Edited by Lilaina
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