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Adalon

So what's all this about?

141 posts in this topic
41 minutes ago, Ugondiss said:

So my grammar was improper concerning the possibility of the improper spelling?

I forgave the first clam, that's a misspelled word. But the second clam needs an explanation. And since there isn't anything important going on around here, I know my timing is precise. 

Err, clam down, don't be so cereal.

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Thanks for taking the time to write that @Outstanding. I trust you and your judgement more than almost anyone else's here.

Hopefully the official statement will address your post as well and not just the leak.

I'll still play here if/when CF is launched but I've adjusted my expectations pretty dramatically to avoid future disappointments.

 

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13 hours ago, Sosen said:

mainly I would just like to see the post countered in a productive way

Then posting it on reddit was not a good choice :hue.

@Lilaina Why doesn't Jaina have popcorn yet?
 

11 hours ago, Outstanding said:

In any normal project you have......dun dun duhhh! A project manager. They may not be the most important person on the project, but they are the one that makes it work, they are the ones that ensure tasks are completed on time. They are the naggy bastards that make you work all through the night rather that having to hear how disappointed they are with yet another failure and a suggestion that perhaps your job is a little too much for someone of your meager talents.

Alas, CF does not have a project manager. (...) Asura is not, and can't be, a project manager (...) but also because he is lead developer. In any project, the project manager > lead developer/wunderkind/astronaut because the project manager must be able to bring them to task if they are not doing their job or missing deadlines.

Any project where the chosen one is also project manager is going to have huge problems in range of conflicts.

I see you're new to the freeserver wow scene. The "project manager" is always a guy with personal interest, which, surprise, is in 95 % of the cases a developer. Sometimes there's the distinct role of a server owner and the guy who's calling the shots when it comes to the rest - head GM or head developer. In those cases, the owner has tendency to get bored and disappear from public, or siphon funds and skeddadle with his new car.
As for the rest, it's a loosely configured soup made of people who have variously split managerial and development responsibilities, sometimes on the same person. You can have many combinations of two or more people leading the project, like lead dev/head gm, head GM/admin, hell, sometimes the head GM does what is basically system admin job, and there's another GM to lead the ingame ones. One time I even knew a guy who was a head GM on one account and a core dev on the other. If they are close geographically, most of the time the head GM, owner and lead dev have the same level of access so they can go into the server room to unfuck any tangled wires and plug in power cords someone tripped over.

The point is, the rigid pseudo-corporate structures are a fairly new thing. Usually, I think "project manager" boils down to "that GM that talks to players" at best.

Edited by Xaverius
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6 hours ago, Bluemoon said:

Come again?

What I was referring to there was that Darkrasp gives people the updates and you can trust him in the sense he's not going to lie. Nobody really lies from the core staff. They might be terribly optimistic, naive and trusting. But unlike other servers/realms they won't lie to you. Elicas is different in that he takes a more aggressive tone, even on himself. He also has the expertise. So you would have him in the team as a no-holds supervisor if people were slacking or not doing their job.

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1 hour ago, Xaverius said:

Then posting it on reddit was not a good choice :hue.

@Lilaina Why doesn't Jaina have popcorn yet?

/popcorn is for amusing drama and hype. This is neither, just disappointing. :|

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I guess I am not surprised such a thing popped up on reddit. I have yet to truly play on a private server. I dabbled here and there but was waiting for a really good one before committing many hours on leveling.

This drama does not surprise me though. I have still faith in this project. I just lurk and wait and sometimes post. So far this is the only server for vanilla that seems to want to provide a polished experience.

If that means it will take longer then initially planned, so be it. Quality takes time.

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And again F**K wowservers!

 

Seriously, nice post Darkrasp...

 

Some wall of text can have 0 value... how do you respond to it and what if you shouldnt ? These kind of people use the crowd against a team / project. Why are the bad servers not getting such thing ? Cause those haters / mad people are involved in such projects and they have 0 value, thats why they dont get hit by nonsense like this, they just show off how they "steal" stuff from others, pff same old shit.

Crestfall is the best, sorry for the others.

 

I personally if i was a leader of this project i would perma ban from the entire project not beeing able to play here. But yes they would do a monthly hate speech on wowservers but thats also what would make them look like a joke, since it wouldnt work anymore and everyone would know they fully deserved the consequences.

 

Sorry for some off-topic, pisses me off.

Edited by Brikot
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Is it possible to point out the epic difference between the official voice and @Outstanding statements ? Because some people are like "You know it's Reddit, BS as always, blabla, just a liar" but it seems we have still fatal issues in Crestfall development which are corroborated by internal and external voice. Just to say. So, is it possible to having a fair response on what's really going on here and not some rhetorical tricks?

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One thing is for sure, the optics are pretty bad with this kind of stuff. And some of it has been tied to the (still) postponed Q&A4, as in it's a bad sign that a project can't hit even a small deadline that requires no actual (coding/scripting/whatever) work. It's just words to answer other words, and that shouldn't be too demanding. Especially if the person signing off on those words actually is online is on Discord. 

So what's the solution? Stop giving monthly updates or answers to questions? That probably wouldn't go down so well, if one cares about the community at all. My answer would be to hit at least the little easy deadlines, as in community updates since you have a community manager just for that, and be honest. People in general like being informed, I do for sure, and this communication with the community in my opinion is a positive thing, and shouldn't be scrapped.

If people get lied to (a la Blizzard), eventually the lies just run out and you are faced with the ugly truth, and some people will get really pissed off. People do not like to be strung along, even if it's a hobby project for you and them. They still could be doing other stuff with their time. Be it playing on some other server or whatever it is they would choose to do. Well, it's their own decision to hang their hopes on this server and give their time, right? That's all well and good, but do humans really work that rationally when they feel they have been slighted? I'd say no.

People are much more understanding to things not always going to plan/expectations, if they are forewarned about this. And if the project stays alive as long as @Darkrasp is alive, I see no reason not to give the bad news too. In clear writing spelling out the actual things going on. Some people might be able to infer things, read between the lines, that @Asura being busy with RL/taking time off the project means automatic delays, but if you keep still saying 2017 launch is the plan, people might get confused. OK, you could later say that it sure was a plan, it just failed, but the closer to 2018 you postpone this, IF it's known to be inevitable, the worse the reaction will be.

TL;DR If a project misses easy and "insignificant" deadlines how would it be reasonable to expect them to hit the "real" ones either? Stop shooting yourselves in the foot. Or maybe feet at this point. 

giphy.gif

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Lot of people seem to have missed this, just informing ya'll that something's coming.

discordo.PNG

Edited by Clavus
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About this drama i want to say some words more calmly than before.

Of course some of the statements of this person can be true as the staff themself confirm, but most of it are old and outdated.

What makes me take this leak very non-seriously are 2 facts imo. First the person decides to be anonymous. That's so lame because of many reasons. Ofc the clear fact stand for your opinion, but mostly because the reason behind the person's decision to do this are hidden in its identity. Is it a reject that didn't do it’s job, do he hold a grudge etc.

Next thing (that also strengthen my thought about personal grudge) the fact he decide to post it on reddit. If he had serious critique about the server he should first have talked to team and if he seriously want to help out post the text open on the forums. The fact using reddit are an obvious step to create drama and give server a bad rep. A person doing that have very low, or non, credibility imo.

 

Then back to why you should stay and support Crestfall.

All private servers die out eventually. Why? Because they are either Vanilla/tbc/wrath etc. There are no progress. The sooner you are to the end of that expansion, the less new players will join and people tend to drop off. Crestfall are taking a new approach that for me are interesting, the possibility to do the journey that was fun again, start in vanilla and take of further with same character etc. The people who want to stay in vanilla/tbc or what ever can do that.


 

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So again everything that goes about any psever is blown out of proportion. Seams everyone and their dog's fleece are crazy about that stupid post. Calm your tits or go nuts - I don't care the slightest, but you are the one who are disappointed, losing interest or else. This server goals maybe almost the same as when the project started, but the details getting done are more than that. So it went with more work, more security measures, because of retards from reddit or the tube. So when you complain about the delays get that sunk in - some of them are because of these trolls, whom you are feeding now with your distrust.

About project management in a hobby/free time project with no payment involved, only passion - WTF, are you crazy? Mother earth is calling all crazy balloons to land. Don't mess this crazy shit-eating gobblers any more with so much unreal stupidity. 

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2 hours ago, Clavus said:

Lot of people seem to have missed this, just informing ya'll that something's coming.

discordo.PNG

Thanks, i actually forgot about discord...

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1 hour ago, Joyman said:

So again everything that goes about any psever is blown out of proportion. Seams everyone and their dog's fleece are crazy about that stupid post. Calm your tits or go nuts - I don't care the slightest, but you are the one who are disappointed, losing interest or else. This server goals maybe almost the same as when the project started, but the details getting done are more than that. So it went with more work, more security measures, because of retards from reddit or the tube. So when you complain about the delays get that sunk in - some of them are because of these trolls, whom you are feeding now with your distrust.

About project management in a hobby/free time project with no payment involved, only passion - WTF, are you crazy? Mother earth is calling all crazy balloons to land. Don't mess this crazy shit-eating gobblers any more with so much unreal stupidity. 

Couldn't agree more buddy.
We really shouldn't feed the trolls being reddit or anywhere

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I just want to play Vanilla. I was/am enthusiastic about this project and it would be a massive disappointment if it all got scrapped. 

The fault is always on both sides and I hope this will lead to better communication and understanding of each other's roles and situation.

You may think I'm talking crap like your standard issue politician, but there really isn't much else I can do.

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13 minutes ago, ilovecats said:

I just want to play Vanilla. I was/am enthusiastic about this project and it would be a massive disappointment if it all got scrapped. 

The fault is always on both sides and I hope this will lead to better communication and understanding of each other's roles and situation.

You may think I'm talking crap like your standard issue politician, but there really isn't much else I can do.

 

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10 hours ago, Xaverius said:

 

I see you're new to the freeserver wow scene. The "project manager" is always a guy with personal interest, which, surprise, is in 95 % of the cases a developer. Sometimes there's the distinct role of a server owner and the guy who's calling the shots when it comes to the rest - head GM or head developer. In those cases, the owner has tendency to get bored and disappear from public, or siphon funds and skeddadle with his new car.
As for the rest, it's a loosely configured soup made of people who have variously split managerial and development responsibilities, sometimes on the same person. You can have many combinations of two or more people leading the project, like lead dev/head gm, head GM/admin, hell, sometimes the head GM does what is basically system admin job, and there's another GM to lead the ingame ones. One time I even knew a guy who was a head GM on one account and a core dev on the other. If they are close geographically, most of the time the head GM, owner and lead dev have the same level of access so they can go into the server room to unfuck any tangled wires and plug in power cords someone tripped over.

The point is, the rigid pseudo-corporate structures are a fairly new thing. Usually, I think "project manager" boils down to "that GM that talks to players" at best.

Yeah, I think there's a misconception here. The whole point about CF was the differences between it and other similar projects. This is apparent by the forums and the community. For me the key to CF was that it was based on a whole new core and not a C&P MaNGOS version that someone made occasional tweaks to, or a ''merged'' core we borrowed from another project who did far more work than we're competent in doing. Then you have the PTE issue. Most, if not all servers contend themselves by sticking to one vanilla flavour and run the server/realm until it stagnates like a swamp.

The ambitions behind CF to have it's own core and PTE shows a scale of ambition and balls unlike anything we've seen before.

Hence, you need to have your shit sorted and in good order, a realistic timeline, successful task completion points and so forth. The Pserver scene is littered with many failures and few successes, so if the argument is that CF is no different in the way it goes about its business, then for something more complex and more ambitious you can draw your own conclusions.

I guess the community - whom I do not represent - will hope that the current reality check will enforce a more open and realistic approach in how they manage the project and the optics with their audience.

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23 minutes ago, Cragus said:

That's kind of an absurd attitude to have.

I think your admitted lack of knowledge about both development and the genre are limiting your understanding of the pressures involved in this situation. I'm not a core developer on CF, but I am a developer in real life. You want a project manager to nag people to get stuff done? I understand that, because good project management is necessary in a business to keep people on task. The thing is: Nobody likes being nagged. If you want to nag me, I bill $100/hr. Offer me that and *maybe* I'll be working through the night. Otherwise, I'll tell you where you can stick it, and any other professional developer will do the same.

These projects, and all projects like it, are developed because they're fun for the people working on them, and that exposes the differences from corporate structure that are critical, both why having someone who nags people to hit deadlines is an extremely bad idea, and why the project can succeed without the nagging: People do the work because they want to. This is how personal projects work, this is how open source works (which CF is not, but is volunteer-based development), this is how CF necessarily will work. The driving force of "talented people interested in doing something interesting/fun" has gotten a lot of projects that are frankly more ambitious than CF done.

Unless someone is going to get out the chequebook, people will just need to accept that as part of something they're getting for free, the people working on it are going to be going to bed on time, spending time with their family, taking breaks if they're not feeling great and occasionally being busy with work that actually pays their bills (which takes priority). That means that deadlines which seem reasonable when they're set are probably going to be missed relatively frequently. You can't predict life, and it'd be boring if you could. This is not indicative of a mismanaged project which is hopeless the same way frequently missed deadlines would imply disaster for a project in a business. People want dates and deadlines and sure-things without understanding that to get those, you need to provide the people working towards them something more valuable than the other priorities in their life. The CF devs have always been hesitant with dates presumably because they understand that if something comes up in their lives, it's probably going to take priority, and that can really mess up a schedule. Things are still getting done.

While I agree with your points, project management is not just keeping people on track, but overall resource management and structure organization. Regarding free software projects, fact is that the main coder is (almost) always also the project manager. For Crestfal, this figure is Asura. The problem is that Asura is a bad PR person and very closed to opinions on how things should be, according to other CF staff members. These two personal characteristics of him make him not an ideal project manager and I think this is what Outstanding was trying to point out.

Edited by loeth
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1 hour ago, Cragus said:

That's kind of an absurd attitude to have.

I think your admitted lack of knowledge about both development and the genre are limiting your understanding of the pressures involved in this situation. I'm not a core developer on CF, but I am a developer in real life. You want a project manager to nag people to get stuff done? I understand that, because good project management is necessary in a business to keep people on task. The thing is: Nobody likes being nagged. If you want to nag me, I bill $100/hr. Offer me that and *maybe* I'll be working through the night. Otherwise, I'll tell you where you can stick it, and any other professional developer will do the same.

These projects, and all projects like it, are developed because they're fun for the people working on them, and that exposes the differences from corporate structure that are critical, both why having someone who nags people to hit deadlines is an extremely bad idea, and why the project can succeed without the nagging: People do the work because they want to. This is how personal projects work, this is how open source works (which CF is not, but is volunteer-based development), this is how CF necessarily will work. The driving force of "talented people interested in doing something interesting/fun" has gotten a lot of projects that are frankly more ambitious than CF done.

Unless someone is going to get out the chequebook, people will just need to accept that as part of something they're getting for free, the people working on it are going to be going to bed on time, spending time with their family, taking breaks if they're not feeling great and occasionally being busy with work that actually pays their bills (which takes priority). That means that deadlines which seem reasonable when they're set are probably going to be missed relatively frequently. You can't predict life, and it'd be boring if you could. This is not indicative of a mismanaged project which is hopeless the same way frequently missed deadlines would imply disaster for a project in a business. People want dates and deadlines and sure-things without understanding that to get those, you need to provide the people working towards them something more valuable than the other priorities in their life. The CF devs have always been hesitant with dates presumably because they understand that if something comes up in their lives, it's probably going to take priority, and that can really mess up a schedule. Things are still getting done.

As long as Asura controls all the choke points on this project it will fail.  

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4 minutes ago, Outstanding said:

As long as Asura controls all the choke points on this project it will fail.  

Will it, or will it just take far longer? I still have faith in the team regardless of their leader.

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Guys if you feel that this project has no future just leave and go play retail or tbc blood elf paladin or whatever. It will be more room for the rest of us when it launches in 2030.

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37 minutes ago, Macu said:

Guys if you feel that this project has no future just leave and go play retail or tbc blood elf paladin or whatever. It will be more room for the rest of us when it launches in 2030.

People are just passionate and excited about this project is all.  Its like your favorite tv show being cancelled or your home sports team moving to another city, people just feel let down and are bummed out (prematurely).  

Kind of what I've gathered and picked up on is that there are a couple different perspectives on how this thing should be developed, the best way to carry that out, and how quickly to carry it out.  I think that difference of opinion and the building of frustration over time is what led to this situaution.  

From what I've read of Outstanding's posts here, it really sounds like he cares about the project, if he didn't he probably wouldn't bother posting anything.  

Everything points to the project not being in a perilous situation but at the same time, it isn't full steam ahead either.  I think this is what the problem between the "two sides" is really.  More of the pace of development, probably based off pre-set deadlines/goals that are constantly not being met.  One side says "what can we do about it/we'll get there when we get there", the other side saying "why can't we ever meet our deadlines/goals?  Let's get on it!"

Really though, the problem is that people care about CF's success and that is what this is all about. There are worse problems to have IMO.

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1 hour ago, Macu said:

Guys if you feel that this project has no future just leave and go play retail or tbc blood elf paladin or whatever. It will be more room for the rest of us when it launches in 2030.

That's really not how it works though. I think most of us that are sceptical still want Crestfall to succeed. So many would love to have strong faith in Crestfall. Sadly it's quite hard.

You just simply can't leave something behind you care about. No matter if in the current situation the future doesn't exactly look bright.

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