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Adalon

So what's all this about?

141 posts in this topic

Wording is important, especially in the legal and political fields. @Outstanding, you should just make sure to outline that you merely provided your predictions based on the aforementioned analysis, otherwise people will continuously jump on your head for thinking you're playing wannabe prophet. 

Unless, of course, @Heroin is right and you believe, without a slimmer of doubt, that the project's future under the current conditions is a matter of fact.

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<kindOfOfftopic>

I don't know if anyone can relate, but I'm learning a lot from posters here; when I first posted here I had a totally different oppinion that I now have regard this topic and other things, and that's thanks to well expressed points of view like some of the above.

I guess I wanted to say that we have a quite nice community around here, so thanks and all that.

</kindOfOfftopic>

Edited by HarTstaRx
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9 hours ago, Heroin said:

You know, while there are things I value you for, your arrogance can be quite jarring. 

At the end of the day CF is Asura's little experiment. He makes the calls, because it is, fundamentally, his.

Yes but try to see his point through the percieved arrogance. While I am not a fan of many of his posts, I am grateful to him because his words sound honest considering he obviously cared a lot about this community.

All people posting on these forums are interested in CF, otherwise they would not be here. This interest is manifested as time spent reading and writing here. Our times could be spent elsewhere, with other hobbies or with our family and friends, but instead our interest makes us spend a few minutes per week on these forums. Outstanding was somewhat dramatic but it is not a false statement that every passing minute brings us closer to our deaths, of which we are mostly afraid, hence the value given to 'time'.

Now maybe he attributes a higher value to his time than most of us and he was not confident with the project situation based on his personal experience. He expressed his opinion about CF's status quo and that's it.

If Asura decides to shut it down, then be it. If he releases an awesome server in 2019, great! But I'd rather have more information to gauge how interested I am in the project and decide how much of my time is 'worth' spending in this community. To Outstanding I have to say: "thanks for the honest thoughts".

For discussion: do you guys think that the staff and tester NDA was a good move? Being open is rarely a bad idea...

Edited by loeth
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While all argumentation here are valuable, it still take more than 3 days to have an official answer to this..

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A lot of this might be true but as a developer myself I also had to deal with a fair amount of lies fabricated to slander me and my project so I'm not jumping into any sudden conclusions here.

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1 hour ago, loeth said:

For discussion: do you guys think that the staff and tester NDA was a good move? Being open is rarely a bad idea...

Personally I would prefer a middle road between absolute secrecy and silence on the one hand and 100% openness on the other. I understand that keeping some stuff from the public is necessary to prevent other projects from stealing from you but I don't see the harm in posting stuff like what Outstanding did with fishing if some testers are willing to do so. Not being allowed to comment on the state of the beta at all is just silly.

@Johnnyshaun

Taking your time to formulate a thorough answer is better than what Elysium, and Shenna especially, did earlier this year at least + Darkrasp did say that the timing was bad and gave a lengthy reply. :P

On the other hand taking this long is also somewhat awkward considering that the leak criticizes the project lead(s) for being hard to reach and indifferent about communicating so yeah, valid point.

 

 

Edited by Lilaina
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Yeah, it's kind of weird they are taking so long for a reply. Maybe something happened in RL although nothing has been posted on Discord either... Maybe they are just discussing things, nevertheless we have to wait

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1 hour ago, Lilaina said:

Taking your time to formulate a thorough answer is better than what Elysium, and Shenna especially, did earlier this year at least + Darkrasp did say that the timing was bad and gave a lengthy reply. :P

On the other hand taking this long is also somewhat awkward considering that the leak criticizes the project lead(s) for being hard to reach and indifferent about communicating so yeah, valid point.

You know its summer, right?

Alot of people, me included have familys, hollidays etc things to do with family during summer. So if seriusly people think answere takes a long time.... 

Edited by Sherekhan
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18 minutes ago, Sherekhan said:

Alot of people, me included have familys, hollidays etc things to do with family during summer. So if seriusly people think answere takes a long time.... 

Gotta remember, people who play wow and are interested enough to post on forums and (especially) leddit are nolifers so they have all the time. Source: Am a nolifer :P.

I think the team is sitting at a table somewhere and carefully trying to pick words to use in the response so nobody gets triggered.
Then someone spills vodka on it and the whole thing will be ad-libbed.

 

 

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2 hours ago, loeth said:

do you guys think that the staff and tester NDA was a good move?

Not entirely but certainly justified. I find declining staff activity on these boards a more pressing issue.

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2 hours ago, Sherekhan said:

You know its summer, right?

Alot of people, me included have familys, hollidays etc things to do with family during summer. So if seriusly people think answere takes a long time.... 

Yes, it's summer and spending time with family is nice.

I also acknowledged the fact that Darkrasp said they were busy and that rushing an official reply isn't necessary a good either. I guess you didn't read that and just skipped to the part where I dared to be mildly critical?

2 hours ago, Soyoen said:

Not entirely but certainly justified. I find declining staff activity on these boards a more pressing issue.

+1. And it's not just staff either. If Outstanding were to do one of his monthly forum activity reports like he used to, it would probably be pretty depressing.

If Asura and the rest think that they have the time to develop and later run a server, then you'd think that they also have the time to write something here every now and then, not just when it's absolutely necessary. As someone who joined this forum relatively late (last October I think), I find it baffling that most of the staff have as high post counts as they do considering how little they've bothered to visit within the last 9 months or so. What changed? Did the novelty wear off or are we just too annoying or what? :D If they don't want to engage with their community then maybe they shouldn't have started one in the first place and just kept working on the server instead.

2 hours ago, Xaverius said:

Gotta remember, people who play wow and are interested enough to post on forums and (especially) leddit are nolifers so they have all the time. Source: Am a nolifer :P.

By that logic, people who are nerdy enough to know how to code and willing to make a wow server of their own should be the biggest nolifers of us all and they would be working on CF 24/7 without letting pesky RL interfere, no? :P

Edited by Lilaina
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13 minutes ago, Lilaina said:

By that logic, people who are nerdy enough to know how to code and willing to make a wow server of their own should be the biggest nolifers of us all and they would be working on CF 24/7 without letting pesky RL interfere, no?

Sadly, the moment you know how to code, you become somewhat competent. Then real life pounces on you and before you know it you're getting up every morning to work and having family and going to barbecues and on vacations, while all the time you just wanted to farm some mobs without falling under the terrain all the time.

13 minutes ago, Lilaina said:

What changed?

Everything has changed when the r/wowservers nation attacked. You were around for the incident :P.

Edited by Xaverius
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1 hour ago, Xaverius said:

Everything has changed when the r/wowservers nation attacked. You were around for the incident :P.

Eh, looking at Asura's post history, it seems he all but stopped posting after November 2016 which was months before. Same goes for lots of other staff too. You and Elicas don't count because you were forum dwellers first who only joined the ranks later. :P

Also, the LGN drama was mostly based on discord where everyone acts like an asshole anyway and poor decision making by the staff who didn't know how their forum community would react. If only there was some way for them to stay in touch with them...

And who cares about reddit anyway. :P

Edited by Lilaina
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I think that this comment from killerwife on /r/LegacyRealms could be of interest to the topic:
 

Quote

I tried to read between the lines and I noticed a few things people don't realize.

Our cores are huge. There are systems that take months to pull off properly if its the case of cmangos/TC not having it working properly. (which is a lot of them) The only way to combat this is to perpetually recruit new core people into wow-emu, which is what my personal approach to voa is.

This ties into point 2: Crestfall has a big problem with recruitment, the core is VASTLY different from the other cores. How much does it usually take you to adjust to a new job position? 2-3 months of full time? How much is that when you are investing time only in your free time? (since none of us are paid) I'll let anyone decide how long it takes for them, for me it took a year to learn most systems in cmangos and there is still plenty of systems I have not touched.

Will to work on systems - not every dev can work on any topic thoroughly. I myself am interested in anything content/mechanic/spell related. But if you were to force me to work on anticheat, I would do an appaling job because I lack the interest to do so (back to "this is not a paid job"), as a result you need a big and diverse team of people interested in things. Which neatly ties into the previous point.

These few statements do not mean to undermine the skill of Asura, Crogge, or whoever is invested in making CF succeed. I am only trying to state that the three points I brought up are most likely the causes of what was mentioned in the post.

With the "ever recruiting" nature and the closeness to cmangos, voa was able to cover all instabilities of our free times. Even if I or the others get sick, there is always 1-2 commits every day from other people on voa or in cmangos. (and the way the development works, stuff on cmangos that isnt done by us is used on voa)

 

 

Edited by HarTstaRx
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2 hours ago, Heroin said:

 

Anyway, let's set that to the side for minute. I understand that this might not be a popular point ot make, but I think we should keep in mind that while the community is certainly what constitutes the social dimension of a WoW server, in some sense we're just here for the ride. We're not the ones coding, scripting and testing. Furthermore, we can claim no sense of ownership over this project. I am sympathetic to the emotional involvement that a lot of us feel towards to the project, we're rooting for it, we want it to work, but like I said, this is principally Asura's little experiment. Of course, I do not wish to underplay the importance of Darkrasp, and the rest of the CF team, as even though this might be Asura's project, they're the ones driving the project together with him. 

That's the thing, however, the team and Asura are the ones who own and are the driving the car that we're just hitching a ride on. They're really doing us a favour by letting us tag along for the ride. Given how the community tends to react, and the often recurring sense of entitlement, I'm honestly surprised that they bother to communicate with us at all. 

I understand that the sentiments that some have displayed in this thread, that the CF does not communicate enough, that they're taking too long to respond, and so on, but honestly, since we're just hitching a ride, we are in no position to demand, we can only politely ask those who have chosen to waste their time on talking to us to share what's going with the project. 

Speaking of deadlines, I think it's also worth keeping in mind that every time this stuff happens the whole team tends to focus on actually responding and dissolving this kind of drama. Incidentally, that's time that could have been directed towards the project, towards the stuff that appears on Darkrasp's posts and which gets us all excited in the first place. It really doesn't make much sense to start emotionally blackmailing the team and the project, not only are we in no position to do so, but it's also just impolite. If we think there's something that could be done better, we can only politely make that suggestion and hope that we'll be listened to. 

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that I'd simply like to thank @Darkrasp, @Asura, @Elicas and all other members of the CF team for taking time out of their days to work, share and communicate with us what we're all passionate about. In a weird way, it doesn't even matter whether CF launches or not, I'm actually just grateful that you guys let me have a glimpse of what it means to develop a WoW server. 

 

If I could upvote this 1000 times I would.  This is exactly my mentality of everything about this whole project.  

Edited by Veritch
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I still have high hopes for this server. Wow is far from my main time consumer - time flies so fast and I can wait for CF whenever it releases. Given that, I want this server to succeed and some of the posts here (mainly by Outstanding) worried me. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that most of the original leak is not true but even if it is, what either of us can do?

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5 hours ago, Asura said:

It's not that we're not here, we're discussing what needs to be said. While some of what was posted was outright untruthful, and other things (good and bad) were entirely exaggerated, some (also good and bad) was true. We are listening to feedback, and discussing what will be done going forward. Comments made by people like Outstanding, despite being made without actual knowledge of team members abilities and their knowledge, are not things we want to ignore. Project structuring and management is not a small topic, and while Darkrasp being in NA and me being in EU doesn't cause any issues with development, it can when wanting to talk about a topic that requires hours of discussions.

We will post an official response this weekend. The project is still being worked on. We're still here, and we still care.

Are you playing Persona 5? I could understand the delay if you're playing Persona 5. Persona 5 is a good game. I approve of that.

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3 hours ago, Viken said:

guys, lets just play video games and have fun

I like this guy. Here, have my upvote.

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On 7/19/2017 at 7:25 PM, ilovecats said:

I had my doubts about CF based on my past experiences, but I remained silent and disregarded them in favour of hype. These are bad news and my doubts are back.

Same honestly.

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1 hour ago, HijacK said:

Are you playing Persona 5? I could understand the delay if you're playing Persona 5. Persona 5 is a good game. I approve of that.

i lol'd =D

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58 minutes ago, Alexensual said:

Same honestly.

Except you weren't 'that' silent :D I ain't hatin' though.

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7 hours ago, Heroin said:

Well, I just wanted to express a sentiment that has been bothering me for a while concerning @Outstanding. If I were to expand, for sake the simplicity remaining within the context of this particular drama, it's the faux modesty, combined with self-perceived importance, and a weird form of insensitivity. 

It seems to me that rather than contributing to an open discussion, instead, he contributed to Darkrasp's migraine. 

He is of course entitled to his own opinion, and I certainly respect his experience, but I think there was a much more constructive way of chiming into this debate. He only had to politely wait for a response from Darkrasp, or Elicas, and perhaps in response to that statement release his polemical views. Given his previous involvement with the project, and the aforementioned qualities which emanate from his posts, his behaviour simply comes across as that of an 'attention whore'. 

Putting it bluntly, it seems like you, Outstanding, enjoy stirring shit up. 

I'm sorry for making this personal, but you really crossed a line here. 

Anyway, let's set that to the side for minute. I understand that this might not be a popular point ot make, but I think we should keep in mind that while the community is certainly what constitutes the social dimension of a WoW server, in some sense we're just here for the ride. We're not the ones coding, scripting and testing. Furthermore, we can claim no sense of ownership over this project. I am sympathetic to the emotional involvement that a lot of us feel towards to the project, we're rooting for it, we want it to work, but like I said, this is principally Asura's little experiment. Of course, I do not wish to underplay the importance of Darkrasp, and the rest of the CF team, as even though this might be Asura's project, they're the ones driving the project together with him. 

That's the thing, however, the team and Asura are the ones who own and are the driving the car that we're just hitching a ride on. They're really doing us a favour by letting us tag along for the ride. Given how the community tends to react, and the often recurring sense of entitlement, I'm honestly surprised that they bother to communicate with us at all. 

I understand that the sentiments that some have displayed in this thread, that the CF does not communicate enough, that they're taking too long to respond, and so on, but honestly, since we're just hitching a ride, we are in no position to demand, we can only politely ask those who have chosen to waste their time on talking to us to share what's going with the project. 

Speaking of deadlines, I think it's also worth keeping in mind that every time this stuff happens the whole team tends to focus on actually responding and dissolving this kind of drama. Incidentally, that's time that could have been directed towards the project, towards the stuff that appears on Darkrasp's posts and which gets us all excited in the first place. It really doesn't make much sense to start emotionally blackmailing the team and the project, not only are we in no position to do so, but it's also just impolite. If we think there's something that could be done better, we can only politely make that suggestion and hope that we'll be listened to. 

Incidentally, that's really what triggered me about Outstanding's post. He's well within his rights to suggest improvements, but I think it's important that we remember that we're just here for the ride. It's not nice to shit all over the team that has decided to give us a ride. 

I suppose what I'm trying to say is that I'd simply like to thank @Darkrasp, @Asura, @Elicas and all other members of the CF team for taking time out of their days to work, share and communicate with us what we're all passionate about. In a weird way, it doesn't even matter whether CF launches or not, I'm actually just grateful that you guys let me have a glimpse of what it means to develop a WoW server. 

 

Very correct point of view I have to agree on that and you do share an extent of my own.

However, I think you undervalue the sense of community a bit. If this is suppose to be a personal project or a daily blog about scripting a wow server it wouldn't have a specific forum like this one for it. Many of the staff were former forum bystanders like us previously. 

I believe it's in Crestfalls goals to provide what's never be done before. So it's meant to be enjoyed by others than the devs and their personal friends. What's the point of playing an MMORPG with 20 people or so.  

I still do have hopes for Crestfall like you (even though I don't have a computer ATM probably buying it when Crestfall releases). I believe if the server launches out proper many of us would be willing to support the project through donations. 

Straight to the point. I don't want us to just accept what is given. I want us to expect what is promised. Projects are fuelled by the communities energy and if we demonstrate a passive stance towards it I do believe the devs will undertake the same stance towards working on the core. We must be supportive, truthful and thorough if we ever want to see this project grow into a legacy. It's up to EVERYONE to ensure that this will be a mark of honor and not a stain of shame 

Edited by DonnyDonowitz
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