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Pvt_8Ball

A minor suggestion for the extra strikes system

40 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Greetings.

Firstly, this post is mostly directed @Darkrasp , since the extra strikes system I'm referencing is from his May 29th dev blog http://forums.crestfall-gaming.com/index.php?/topic/2176-darkrasps-blog-5292017/

I'd just like to preface this by saying, I'm a fan of the system overall, it strikes a good middle ground between known data points, as well as just making good logic.

 

Anyway, allow me to quote the system:

Quote

You swing once, and proc Windfury.  Windfury AP buff is added, and two extra attacks get queued up.
You take your first bonus swing (from Windfury, with bonus Windfury AP) -> No procs occur.
You take your second bonus Windfury swing (from Windfury, with bonus Windfury AP) -> This swing procs Ironfoe and Hand of Justice.
The Windfury AP buff falls off - only the two attacks granted by Windfury benefit from it.
You gain two additional swings from Ironfoe, the Hand of Justice proc is ignored as it has lower value.
You take your third bonus swing (from Ironfoe) -> You proc Windfury again, but it is ignored because it has already procced once in this chain.
You take your fourth bonus swing (from Ironfoe) -> You proc Hand of Justice again, but it is ignored because it has already procced once in this chain (even though it was ignored).
All five swings have now been processed, swing timer is reset.

 

The issue is how HoJ in this example gets ignored permanently in this chain, even though it never granted any extra strikes (see how the "forth swing" procs it, but it is still being ignored), it doesn't make sense mathematically, and causes diminishing returns if someone stacks more than one extra strikes effect. To get my point across clearly, I'll use an extreme example, imagine you have 1 item the has 100% chance on hit to grant an addition attack, ok great, you get 2 swings per attack in total, now imagine you get another item with the same affect, so you have 2 items, both grant a 100% chance on hit to grant an addition attack, this is where the flaw kicks in, you will still only get 2 swings per attack. The reason for this is because both effects procced from the first attack, making one get ignored permanently, the first bonus strike procs the other effect, but it gets ignored because it was ignored earlier. 

I propose that the ignored permanently logic be removed (not all of it, just the part I discussed), with it remove, the DPS gains from stacking extra strike affect wont have diminishing returns, but at the same time, wont get exponentially stronger. With the previously mentioned logic removed, each extra strikes effect will scale in a manner that is fair and logical, which is what I feel the original system aims at. To be clear, proc effects should still be ignored permanently if they've already procced and granted a bonus strike.

With my suggestion in place, the system would look like this instead (altered lines in bold):

Quote

You swing once, and proc Windfury.  Windfury AP buff is added, and two extra attacks get queued up.
You take your first bonus swing (from Windfury, with bonus Windfury AP) -> No procs occur.
You take your second bonus Windfury swing (from Windfury, with bonus Windfury AP) -> This swing procs Ironfoe and Hand of Justice.
The Windfury AP buff falls off - only the two attacks granted by Windfury benefit from it.
You gain two additional swings from Ironfoe, the Hand of Justice proc is ignored as it has lower value.
You take your third bonus swing (from Ironfoe) -> You proc Windfury again, but it is ignored because it has already procced once in this chain.
You take your fourth bonus swing (from Ironfoe) -> You proc Hand of Justice again.
You take your Fifth bonus swing (from Hand of Justice) -> No procs occur. 
All six swings have now been processed, swing timer is reset.

I hope you understand what I'm getting at, I explained it better in my head yesterday, but now I've come to write it, my brain has just gone blank.

And to make is absolutely clear, I'm not talking about double procs (like windfury>HOJ>windfury), if you think I am, you've miss-understood what I'm getting at, I am in no way advocating that double procs, or endless proc chains be a thing.

Finally, I just want to credit Cleavis_BIS from Discord for pointing it out.

Thanks.

 

Edited by Pvt_8Ball
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Posted (edited)

Just want to point out that Windfury Weapon and Windfury Totem operate differently and are not at all the same spell. The Windfury you are talking about above is clearly Windfury Weapon which is exclusive to the Shaman.

I am also not sure that what you are saying about swingtimer being reset at the end of the chain, rather than at the first hit. This seems counterintuitive and does not correlate with swingtimer observed ingame on the various servers I have played on and my memory from retail.

Edited by Ulver
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i dont think you are right (in your example), because:

You have item1 and item2, both with 100% procc chance

you swing -> item1 and item2 proccs -> system decides for one of them, because they have equal value (imagine system takes item1) -> you swing from item1 -> item1 and item2 proccs -> item1 already procced so only item2 is left -> you swing from item2

-----> 3 swings

 

but you are right, there is the possibility that one procc is ignored. i dont know why they dont give you 3 swings in this situation. in darkrasp example wouldnt procc anything else in these 3 swings (because everything already procced). 

 

you are also right, the system is a bit unfair (in my opinion), because in darkrasp example you need 2x HoJ procc instead of 1 to get 5 swings.

 

but maybe i did consider something wrong :)

 

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I like this idea.  If I understand it right, it is basically saying that in a chain of extra strike procs, the same item or skill proc should never be able to proc twice but  every separate item or skill that can proc an extra swing should have the chance to proc at least once in any given series.  

So if you are a warrior with 2h sword skill, HoJ, and a windfury totem down, the maximum number of swings in any chained strike is 4. The original swing plus 1 from totem, 1 from HoJ, 1 from 2h skill talent.

If a shaman with ironfoe, HoJ, windfury spell, the maximum number of swings in any chained strike would be 6.  The original swing plus 2 from WF, 2 from Ironfoe, 1 from HoJ for 6. 

Seems fair to let every item that can proc have a chance to proc.  But I agree there shouldn't be endless proc possibilities by letting the same proc happen twice in the same series.

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Ulver said:

Just want to point out that Windfury Weapon and Windfury Totem operate differently and are not at all the same spell. The Windfury you are talking about above is clearly Windfury Weapon which is exclusive to the Shaman.

I am also not sure that what you are saying about swingtimer being reset at the end of the chain, rather than at the first hit. This seems counterintuitive and does not correlate with swingtimer observed ingame on the various servers I have played on and my memory from retail.

To to be clear, this is Darkrasp's system I'm quoting, I'm only suggesting a very minor change to it which shouldn't affect much in the grand scheme of things. If you want to learn more about the extra strikes system in general, please refer to Darkrasp's dev blogs here: http://forums.crestfall-gaming.com/index.php?/topic/2176-darkrasps-blog-5292017/

 

Edited by Pvt_8Ball
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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, bampie said:

i dont think you are right (in your example), because:

You have item1 and item2, both with 100% procc chance

you swing -> item1 and item2 proccs -> system decides for one of them, because they have equal value (imagine system takes item1) -> you swing from item1 -> item1 and item2 proccs -> item1 already procced so only item2 is left -> you swing from item2

-----> 3 swings

 

but you are right, there is the possibility that one procc is ignored. i dont know why they dont give you 3 swings in this situation. in darkrasp example wouldnt procc anything else in these 3 swings (because everything already procced). 

 

you are also right, the system is a bit unfair (in my opinion), because in darkrasp example you need 2x HoJ procc instead of 1 to get 5 swings.

 

but maybe i did consider something wrong :)

I'm mimicking the logic as it stands from Darkrasp's post, currently, if both items proc simultaneously, the one that is ignored is ignored permenently for the remainder of the chain, resulting in only 2 swings. With the change in place that I'm proposing, it would function exactly how you say.

I think you may have miss read the original system, HoJ NEVER granted any swings. Ironfoe gave 2 swings, windfury gave 2, HOJ gave none, despite proccing by itself.

Edited by Pvt_8Ball
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Posted (edited)

@Pvt_8Ball yes you are right, my chain was wrong, the last swing wouldnt occur with Darkraps system.

 

but even if the last HoJ would occur in Darkrasp example, it would be unfair, because you need 2 proccs of HoJ to occur instead of one, or do i miss something?

Edited by bampie
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Posted (edited)

10 minutes ago, bampie said:

@Pvt_8Ball yes you are right, my chain was wrong, the last swing wouldnt occur with Darkraps system.

 

but even if the last HoJ would occur in Darkrasp example, it would be unfair, because you need 2 proccs of HoJ to occur instead of one, or do i miss something?

I see what you're saying about HoJ, but trust me, it would be fair, cause the strike that overwrites the original proc in turn gives HOJ another chance to proc.

Edited by Pvt_8Ball
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Posted (edited)

You are explaining yourself fine.  My understanding of the current system would mean that were ironfoe and windfury spell to proc off the same initial swing (each applying 2 extra swings), you would only get the extra strikes of one of the 2, not both.  And furthermore, it would be impossible to get the other to proc after that because it would be perma ignored.

Lets say windfury took precedence and ironfoe proc got cancelled.  It appears that were that to happen, it would be impossible to have another ironfoe proc in that series of strikes because it would have been permanently cancelled for that series of strikes, just like HoJ in the example you are using.  You could get a HoJ proc off your extra swings, in my example because it hadn't ever been overriden but you couldn't get an ironfoe proc. 

I agree with your suggestion on its own, but I just think it would be simpler to just allow each possible skill/proc to happen only once in a series of strikes with nothing being overriden or cancelled, but I see you disagree with that suggestion.  I think that of you just don't let same proc happen in a series more than once, but let all unique procs that ever get activated in a series go through is cool/fair.  But I hope your specific suggestion is looked at as well.

Edited by Veritch
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Posted (edited)

49 minutes ago, Veritch said:

You are explaining yourself fine.  My understanding of the current system would mean that were ironfoe and windfury spell to proc off the same initial swing (each applying 2 extra swings), you would only get the extra strikes of one of the 2, not both.  And furthermore, it would be impossible to get the other to proc after that because it would be perma ignored.

Lets say windfury took precedence and ironfoe proc got cancelled.  It appears that were that to happen, it would be impossible to have another ironfoe proc in that series of strikes because it would have been permanently cancelled for that series of strikes, just like HoJ in the example you are using.  You could get a HoJ proc off your extra swings, in my example because it hadn't ever been overriden but you couldn't get an ironfoe proc. 

I agree with your suggestion on its own, but I just think it would be simpler to just allow each possible skill/proc to happen only once in a series of strikes with nothing being overriden or cancelled, but I see you disagree with that suggestion.  I think that of you just don't let same proc happen in a series more than once, but let all unique procs that ever get activated in a series go through is cool/fair.  But I hope your specific suggestion is looked at as well.

Sorry, I wasn't necessarily directing any of my posts to you, I can see you understand it, don't worry. I guess I was just being paranoid that someone might not be following with that one post I wrote. I've hidden that post now, since it didn't really serve much purpose.

To your first two paragraphs, yep that's basically it, we are on the same page alright.

Quote

I agree with your suggestion on its own, but I just think it would be simpler to just allow each possible skill/proc to happen only once in a series of strikes with nothing being overriden or cancelled, but I see you disagree with that suggestion.  I think that of you just don't let same proc happen in a series more than once, but let all unique procs that ever get activated in a series go through is cool/fair.  But I hope your specific suggestion is looked at as well.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but what you're saying is to just let everything go off at once, but disable repeat chain proccing, etc. The issue I see with that is stuff like windfury that applies an AP buff would apply to everything then, it would also change how having multiple extra strike items would scale proc rate wise.

Edited by Pvt_8Ball
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1 hour ago, Pvt_8Ball said:

I see what you're saying about HoJ, but trust me, it would be fair, cause the strike that overwrites the original proc in turn gives HOJ another chance to proc.

Thats the point :) if HoJ doesnt occur on the last ironfoe swing, you have one swing less. so while HoJ actually procced in your chain, you dont get the swing.

 

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Posted (edited)

58 minutes ago, Pvt_8Ball said:

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but what you're saying is to just let everything go off at once, but disable repeat chain proccing, etc. The issue I see with that is stuff like windfury that applies an AP buff would apply to everything then, it would also change how having multiple extra strike items would scale proc rate wise.

Not what I meant exactly. I guess a way I was thinking of it was that lets say WF spell and ironfoe both proc on the same strike. They could both go, but WF's 2 strikes would go first, IF second and any proc of those extras from HoJ could be thrown on the end.

 It seems like such a nerf that if two things happen to both proc at the same time you only get one but that may have been vanilla coding, honestly its been since 2005 for me lol. But, if you could get both, you could have the stronger proc, WF, strikes first, IF strikes next, and during those 4 extra strikes if HoJ procs, let it get added on at the end.  Nothing ever gets dropped if it procs, nothing can proc twice, and when the stars align you can get 6 hits.  

Just to note though, if we could get implementation of your suggestion, that would be appropriate for the current system. Because it definitely doesn't seem right to permanently disallow a proc in a series of strikes because there was a conflict prior to that. Great job picking up on that

Edited by Veritch
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40 minutes ago, Veritch said:

Not what I meant exactly. I guess a way I was thinking of it was that lets say WF spell and ironfoe both proc on the same strike. They could both go, but WF's 2 strikes would go first, IF second and any proc of those extras from HoJ could be thrown on the end.

 It seems like such a nerf that if two things happen to both proc at the same time you only get one but that may have been vanilla coding, honestly its been since 2005 for me lol. But, if you could get both, you could have the stronger proc, WF, strikes first, IF strikes next, and during those 4 extra strikes if HoJ procs, let it get added on at the end.  Nothing ever gets dropped if it procs, nothing can proc twice, and when the stars align you can get 6 hits.  

Just to note though, if we could get implementation of your suggestion, that would be appropriate for the current system. Because it definitely doesn't seem right to permanently disallow a proc in a series of strikes because there was a conflict prior to that. Great job picking up on that

I get what you mean now, as to my own suggestion, we'll just have to wait and see what Darkrasp ends up saying.

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Posted (edited)

It's something I'm willing to look at, but extra strikes are extremely complicated due to how they are stored and tracked in the core, so if it turns out to be a whole lot more work, I'm not going to bother. 

The reason it was implemented that way in the first place was that genuine evidence was presented to prove that only the highest value proc applied on any one swing.  Also, it's hardly "quite a nerf", since the odds of multiple procs on the same swing with something like Hand of Justice (1% proc rate) or Ironfoe (2% proc rate) are pretty low.  You're talking about a "nerf" (but not really, since that's how it worked on retail) of some tenths of a percent.  Nothing to write home about.

Extra strikes are a crazy powerful mechanic that really need to be kept in check as much as possible, aside from being insanely complex relative to most combat mechanics.

When you preform just about any action, the server checks your character for any auras you have which proc off that action.  Cast a spell, the core iterates through your list of auras that can proc off a successful spellcast, ie. Clearcasting.  Take a crit, the core iterates through your list of auras that can proc off a critical hit taken, ie. Enrage (Warrior).  When you strike an enemy, the core iterates through the list of auras that can proc off a successful strike.  Here's where your extra strikes come in.

So the strike lands, damage is calculated, and then it checks for a proc.  When a proc happens, the core jumps out of the strike code, and into the spellcasting code.  The spell effects for that proc all have to get processed now.  So for Windfury, for example, that's these two effects right here:

Screenshot_11.png

 

First, the aura that increases attack power gets applied to the caster.  Pretty simple buff with a 1.5 second duration which is handled in the ApplyAura code.

Second, we jump into the handler for SPELL_EFFECT_ADD_EXTRA_ATTACKS.  We're going to carry in the SpellId, so we know which spell brought us here, and the BasePoints, that's the number of swings added. 

In the effect handler, a lot happens:

We have a multiproc register that tracks the source of the extra attacks for that swing.  If that spell or one like it (ie. different rank of same spell) has already been seen, it dumps out without doing anything else and goes back to the strike code where it left off.  If it hasn't been seen, it sets a flag in that register and continues on.

Next thing is to check for the doubleproc flag saying that an extra strike has occurred on this swing.  If it has, it will compare the amount of strikes added so far, and ensure that the highest value takes precedence.  If not, it just uses however many strikes are listed in the effect and sets the flag.

Now it's going to add in the extra strikes to a counter which is a part of your specific character stats.  You can't see it, but it's a counter of "pending extra strikes".

Ok, so the spell code is now finished, and we go back into the Strike code to finish it off.  Right at the very end of the strike code is where extra attacks are handled, and there we check there to see if the "pending extra strikes" counter is higher than zero.  If so, we just clear the doubleproc flag, decrement the counter, and call another strike.  The whole strike happens again from top to bottom, including the proc checks, in a loop, until either we run out of strikes, or the target is dead, at which point the initial strike code is actually allowed to finish, clearing the multiproc register and preparing it for the next attack.

 

What you're suggesting is to change the code in the handler such that we un-set the multiproc flag for that source in the event of a doubleproc flag failing it's check.  It's somewhat tricky because we then have to know what the previous spell was, which might be able to be inferred from the multiproc register, and might not be, depending on how many things actually procced.  If you're on your third proc, then some very bad things can happen if it has to guess which one was first and which was second.  That information just isn't carried through forever, and increasing the amount of variables we have to track on every swing is bad for efficiency.  The system is quite complicated enough already.

Again, I'll look at it, but I can say that changing it us unlikely to happen because:

1) It's demonstrably not Blizzlike (If I can dig up the screenshot I'll post it, asking Beta Team now)
2) It's a crapload of work.

Edited by Darkrasp
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Posted (edited)

Alright, I appreciate you taking the time to write up an in depth response like that. If it doesn't get changed, that's fine, just when I saw it, it just struck me as odd, so I thought it wouldn't hurt just to bring it up and ponder the idea. I'd be chuffed if it did get changed, but I know it isn't likely and I'm happy you've given reasoning for why that is.

Thanks for at the very least looking into it for me.

 

Edited by Pvt_8Ball
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Posted (edited)

4 hours ago, Darkrasp said:

 

We have a multiproc register that tracks the source of the extra attacks for that swing.  If that spell or one like it (ie. different rank of same spell) has already been seen, it dumps out without doing anything else and goes back to the strike code where it left off.  If it hasn't been seen, it sets a flag in that register and continues on.

Next thing is to check for the doubleproc flag saying that an extra strike has occurred on this swing.  If it has, it will compare the amount of strikes added so far, and ensure that the highest value takes precedence.  If not, it just uses however many strikes are listed in the effect and sets the flag.

 

 

What you're suggesting is to change the code in the handler such that we un-set the multiproc flag for that source in the event of a doubleproc flag failing it's check.  It's somewhat tricky because we then have to know what the previous spell was, which might be able to be inferred from the multiproc register, and might not be, depending on how many things actually procced.  If you're on your third proc, then some very bad things can happen if it has to guess which one was first and which was second.  That information just isn't carried through forever, and increasing the amount of variables we have to track on every swing is bad for efficiency.  The system is quite complicated enough already.

Again, I'll look at it, but I can say that changing it us unlikely to happen because:

1) It's demonstrably not Blizzlike (If I can dig up the screenshot I'll post it, asking Beta Team now)
2) It's a crapload of work.

Thanks for such a thorough reply @Darkrasp.  I've never coded anything except for my TI-83 back in high school, which I'm ashamed to admit how many years ago that was.  But you explained it so well I might be able to even ask a coherent question  (maybe not). 

I think what I am asking for, which you have explained isnt blizzlike, is to retain the multiproc flag, don't un-set it (haha I bet I sound like a child learning a new language to you) but instead, when doing the double-proc check, instead of throwing away the lower value spell, just prioritize the order in which they are executed while setting a limit not to exceed 1 of any spell type (sounds like this is the function of the multiproc check anyway, so that should be easy). This way, if two (or more) things proc at the same time, they all get their functions executed while the multiproc check prevents it from happening again in that series of strikes and limiting any chance of the same proc happening in any strike series.  

@Pvt_8Ball is asking you to to change the code in the handler such that you un-set the multiproc flag for that source in the event of a doubleproc flag failing it's check, which I agree that it sounds like a hassle (hahahaha).

Anyway, if that question even makes sense to you, it was worth it.  Thx for such a nice response.  Do what you think is best, or easiest, or whatever.  You certainly dont have to respond.  Thanks for even taling the time to reply in the first place. 

EDIT: just to add one more thing.  You had said it isn't "anything to write home about" if these procs happen to all fall on the same swing.  My only argument against that is that if you have windfury weapon cast, for example, that has a 20%chance to proc on its own.  This means that anytime HoJ or ironfoe procs while this spell is active, they will have a 20% chance of not being utilized at all. Thus, the effectiveness of these items in an enhancement shaman or a group with a WF totem down, is decreased by 20% as this is the odds of any given HoJ or IF proc occurring at the same time as a windfury proc.

Edited by Veritch
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Posted (edited)

5 hours ago, Veritch said:

This means that anytime HoJ or ironfoe procs while this spell is active, they will have a 20% chance of not being utilized at all. Thus, the effectiveness of these items in an enhancement shaman or a group with a WF totem down, is decreased by 20% as this is the odds of any given HoJ or IF proc occurring at the same time as a windfury proc.

This. Just because one proc is rare doesn't mean this is a minor issue. It is infact a nerf of atleast 20% of the ironfoe/HoJ proc. It's more than 20% if you have both, as they would also slightly lower each others proc%.

Must be possible to add the AP bonus only to 1 attack for totem and 2 attacks for WF Weapon (doesn't really matter which 1/2 get the added AP) as long as it only applies to 1/2 attacks. So letting them all proc at once however maximum once per chain sounds like the simplest solution if you can make the AP only apply to the 1/2.

I'm not really familiar with coding, so just spitballing here, the thing that prevents proccing them all at once if multiproc is that the effect handler counts them as different ranks of the same spell? Wouldn't it be possible to simply make it think they are different spells entirely and not different ranks?

In vanilla Alliance is already the superior faction for PvE, it is not nessesary to further this divide in my opinion. 

Edited by Ulver
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Posted (edited)

23 hours ago, Veritch said:

EDIT: just to add one more thing.  You had said it isn't "anything to write home about" if these procs happen to all fall on the same swing.  My only argument against that is that if you have windfury weapon cast, for example, that has a 20%chance to proc on its own.  This means that anytime HoJ or ironfoe procs while this spell is active, they will have a 20% chance of not being utilized at all. Thus, the effectiveness of these items in an enhancement shaman or a group with a WF totem down, is decreased by 20% as this is the odds of any given HoJ or IF proc occurring at the same time as a windfury proc.

Yep, that's the crooks of the issue, and is the source of the deminishing returns I talk about. If you get windfury buff, you'd effectively be nerfing any other strike affects by 20% wrong, it's way less, and then it gets worse if you're crazy enough to have 3 extra strike effects present.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyway, the thread's basically run it's course, Darkrasp knows everything he needs to knows, if it's going to get changed, it's going to get changed, if it isn't, it isn't. Otherwise, thanks for all the input and friendly discussion :)

Edited by Pvt_8Ball
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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Pvt_8Ball said:

Yep, that's the crooks of the issue, and is the source of the deminishing returns I talk about. If you get windfury buff, you'd effectively be nerfing any other strike affects by 20%, and then it gets worse if you're crazy enough to have 3 extra strike effects present.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Anyway, the thread's basically run it's course, Darkrasp knows everything he needs to knows, if it's going to get changed, it's going to get changed, if it isn't, it isn't. Otherwise, thanks for all the input and friendly discussion :)

You're right about the thread running its course, this will be my last post here but I just want the community to be clear about the "nerf" here. It isnt a 20% nerf.  It is a 6.667% nerf to these items on a WF activated situation.  A quick look at it I think its easy to see.

Since windfury procs every 5th swing on  average, statistically in the long run, a player with Ironfoe (2.4 weapon speed) that every 12 seconds they get 7 swings.  5 normal and 2 from WF (plus 2 from ironfoe itself every 50 swings but lets ignore that for now).  

Expanding this out for one minute means that there are 35 stikes/minute, 25 normal strikes and and 10 WF strikes.  Because WF proc is 20%, 5 of them apparantly weren't accessible to any other proc anyway (it seems the vanilla system would prioritize and allow only 1 proc/swing and take the best of those procs) because WF would have been priortized.  So really, we have only 30 possible strikes for IF or any other extra strike item to proc. 

2 of those strikes (on average) are currently being denied access to any other extra strike mechanic. Again, this is due to 10 of those strikes being from WF proc'ing. 20% of the time IF or any other extra strike mechanic will coincide with the WF proc (and each other), thus, prevented from having a possible proc further down the prgression chain under the current algorithm.  

So 2 ÷ 30 ×100= 6 2/3 % which is, on average, the loss of effectiveness for any INDIVIDUAL extra strike mechanic. You guys have already pointed out that this is actually worse the more extra strike mechanic items you are using. 

The mechanic I suggested to be used isn't blizzlike in its coding, but is I think more blizzlike in its implementation in the sense that while yes, you aren't suppossed to be able to get 2 unique procs on the same swing, doing it this way using the current exclusion system already coded in, would create a much closer representation to the actual effects and damage of the extra strike system than the sequence of checks and progressions currently being utilized. At least to me it appears that way but I admit I may be missing something.  

Anyway, glad it is getting looked at again, I agree the horde will already be short handed in PvE so I'd also like for there not to be any more reasons for this balance to shift.  Have a great day everyone!

Edited by Veritch
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To elaborate on this a bit I simulated the system Dark made with 20% for WF, 2% for IF and 1% for HoJ in a fight were 100% of the damage comes from hits that can proc those things.

The all proccs part uses multiproccs at the same strike, but still no chainproccs, e.g. WF proccing WF or WF proccing HoJ proccing WF etc.!

The highest proccs part only uses one when multiple procc at the same strike, WF>IF>HoJ.

Screenshot_11.png

That's a <1% difference when using BOTH HoJ and Ironfoe, and remember, with 100% only hits that can procc extra strikes as a basis of the damage!

When only using HoJ it become completely negligible:

Screenshot_12.png

And I don't know whether using Ironfoe and HoJ and WF is a case that has a big enough importance to justify putting more work into this :)

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Posted (edited)

Thanks coolmodi, yeah it definitly shows the proc% difference there is better. So it looks like an easy implentation to the all procs since you were able to simulate it.  Lets go with that!

 

Edited by Veritch
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Posted (edited)

Thanks for that @coolmodi, I was just beginning to think a simulation was in order, in your second sim with only WF and HoJ, HoJ saw 13.5% less procs, which isn't far from what I was expecting, the fact windfury grants 2 extra strikes instead of 1 does complicate things slightly.

@Veritch so according to coomodi's simulation, my original 20% nerf number was off, I put that down to the fact WF gives 2 strikes, instead it was 13.5% nerf according to the sim, and I think it should be a 13.33% nerf mathematically, of course simulations can have some slight variance, since it's chance based.

I'm well aware the change would be negligible in the real world, it was more just to make the system nicer, for lack of a better word.

@coolmodi out of interest, could you do another test with WF totem instead (which only grants 1 strike) with HoJ, so see how that would come out, if it wouldn't be too much of a hassle.

Edited by Pvt_8Ball
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Posted (edited)

enhance shamans dont use ironfoe and cant dual wield. not sure why you would gimp overall damage just for a gimmick extra strike spec.

 

the only case a enhance shaman would see it would be from WF weapon chant + hoj

in which case is very negligable. you'd be better off going for more stats than relying on an extra strike since shamans dont have a melee producing special attack (except stormstrike) it's mostly an auto attack you rely on for majority of dps with shock spells.

 

WF totem + hoj would function the same as coolmodi pointed out.

1 + 1 would still count so no class would be hit hard by it. 

the only time you will be hit is if you're using ironfoe (with a correct non bugged version ironfoe at 2% proc, not 10%+ like other pservers). most of which, wont even matter because its a crap weapon anyway even with its proc. you'd gain more by not using ironfoe and using WF totem + HoJ with the current system on CF.

 

so really, the only thing this would gimp is enhance shamans who want to wear a 1 handed mace as a primary weapon and forget this isnt tbc where they cant dual wield.  even in TBC, this discussion becomes irrelevant as blizzard already gutted most of the extra strike system with ICDs and select procs not being able to proc other extra attacks etc.

 

so really, in the grand scheme of things, its a very very VERY minor change in gameplay giving a more thorough system to allow extra attacks to work correctly.

 

also sword spec for warriors/rogues is just +1 attack. so really.  nothing changes for those classes.

horde rogues sustain the +1 from hoj, wf totem, and sword spec.

warriors sustain same as above.

 

so if you want to make a big deal about it. it's really just a small teeny nerf (barely noticable) to people who run a correct ironfoe, or enhancement shamans on drugs using ironfoe as a main damage source. :)

Edited by imbaslap
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Posted (edited)

12 minutes ago, Pvt_8Ball said:

Thanks for that @coolmodi, I was just beginning to think a simulation was in order, in your final sim with only WF and HoJ, HOJ saw 13.5% less procs, which isn't far from what I was expecting, the fact windfury grants 2 extra strikes instead of 1 does complicate things slightly.

@Veritch so according to coomodi's simulation, my original 20% nerf number was off, I put that down to the fact WF gives 2 strikes, instead it was 13.5% nerf according to the sim, and I think it should be a 13.33% nerf mathematically, of course simulations can have some slight variance.

I see that...I figured it to be half that at 6 2/3%.  I wonder why that isnt right

Edited by Veritch
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Posted (edited)

8 minutes ago, imbaslap said:

<snip>

Oh, don't worry, I understand it's a very minor difference, it would be a 13-20% nerf to an item that already is negligible on it's own merit. As I've alluded to in the past, the change would simply be for the sake of making the system more mathematically sound.

Edited by Pvt_8Ball
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