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Outstanding

Opinion Piece : The Limited Options on Where CF Goes From Here

45 posts in this topic
14 hours ago, Outstanding said:

So first up, maybe I was unclear. Any one of the four people mentioned can be front of office. Personally I'd prefer Darkrasp but I don't think he's cool with all the PR and community minding part. Ideally you want a team of differing talents.

Noted.

15 hours ago, Outstanding said:

So first up, maybe I was unclear. Any one of the four people mentioned can be front of office. Personally I'd prefer Darkrasp but I don't think he's cool with all the PR and community minding part. Ideally you want a team of differing talents. In relation to professionalism, professionalism does not mean going to a Harvard business class and using the dubious lessons learned to run a project like this. For example, we're about to move into a house, I'll be doing the painting. The wife will choose the colours, I will organise my weekends and spare time, and I'll get it completed before the carpets and floors go in. I will do a professional job, I won't be as quick as a hired painter but you couldn't tell the difference. I take pride in my work thank you.

Same goes for Pservers but the threshold is much higher, because the work you do means thousands of people are depending on the skillsets of your team. This is not the case in MANGoS servers, but it is definitely the case with this one, the first truly standalone core in what, 10 years? Just remember, the owners of Crestfall were the ones that hyped everything up. Numerous promises were made on how good the core would be, plus the DB, the scripts and all other ancillaries compared to MaNGOS. Personally, I don't doubt it is and it might/will be. So if you're going to bring in a better product then for the love of God bring it in with some form of competency = professionalism.

From my limited knowledge given by the updates regarding the Crestfall project, it seems to me that all of what you have mentioned is already in place. That is, Asura is doing x, Darkrasp is doing y, team member 3 is doing z. My original concern still stands that by introducing a project manager, you are still going to have the him/her nagging on team member 3 to get his work done on or before a certain deadline and I don't think any of them would want that.

It seems that your concern is that the project is not going to be a success because it may take more time than promised/planned? (My apologies if I am mis-representing your position.)

I would like to also repeat that this is a hobby project, so it is not bound by the various typical dimensions of say a construction project such as consequences/penalties of delay in completion of the works. That's what I meant by my use of the word professional.

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16 hours ago, Xantros said:

@Outstanding Exactly how much does it cost to run these forums? I mean, anyone who works full time could probably have a forum I guess.
Not that I ever looked into it but I doubt it would require a fortune - I assume it should be fairly simple to keep up by Asura or someone. 

So I see no reason why we could not have the forum running, unless if Discord is cheaper. Regardless, sharing info is vital for Crestfall at this stage I believe.


I feel that a lot of generalization is being thrown around about the expenses so it would be nice to have a rough breakdown of, just how much would this project cost. 

Additional questions would be:
1. Where is the computer for the beta server located and who owns it?
2. Who owns the forum website?
3. Who would own the Paypal account and who would have access to it?

I for one, will not pay a single coin for anything, until I see some tangible results. I came to Crestfall after seeing some promising videos a year ago and ever since then, there were only empty promises, lots of drama that could have been avoided and sloppy PR. Only in the last month, did I see any videos from Darkrasp and I can tell that a lot of work is being done, however, I won't pay anyone anything until I can see for myself what Crestfall can offer - which has to be proven to me in Open Beta.

And I sure as hell want to know who accesses that donations account - we don't want another Shenna-only access now do we?

I don't think the forums hosting is expensive, although this platform is more than most others. Similarly, the oft-expected website is the same. However, my limited understanding is that because of the clustering aspects of the Benedict Core, multiple servers are rrequired to run the separate parts, all of which need to be paid for. 

With Crogge off the financial menu, I'm afraid we're not going to get tangible results other than the work that was put in already, and continues to be put in every day. It's funny that people won't make a contribution and crowdfund a Pserver that shows great potentional. They'd prefer to see it die than take the risk. Yet the same people (not necessarily the people on this thread) will happily play on a free Pserver that becomes a circus like Nostalrius, Elysium and eventually Let's Hope. 

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3 hours ago, d3joos said:

Noted.

From my limited knowledge given by the updates regarding the Crestfall project, it seems to me that all of what you have mentioned is already in place. That is, Asura is doing x, Darkrasp is doing y, team member 3 is doing z. My original concern still stands that by introducing a project manager, you are still going to have the him/her nagging on team member 3 to get his work done on or before a certain deadline and I don't think any of them would want that.

It seems that your concern is that the project is not going to be a success because it may take more time than promised/planned? (My apologies if I am mis-representing your position.)

I would like to also repeat that this is a hobby project, so it is not bound by the various typical dimensions of say a construction project such as consequences/penalties of delay in completion of the works. That's what I meant by my use of the word professional.

Asura isn't doing X at all unless there's been a change of plan. There was supposed to be a new head dev called Nico who never introduced himself and as far as I know, has disappeared in a puff of logic. Please stop the hobby project mantra. This was never a hobby project until the delays started. People shoudl remember, these forums started in April 2016 with the idea that we would have open Beta in August of that year. That didn't start until the end of the year. 10 months later we are still in open Beta. There's a reason the internal Discord channel was called ''Corecraft 2'' 

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@Darkrasp

I'm not going to apologise from my perspective no more than I'd expect you to back down from yours. Ultimately though, you'd have to admit that the community, those of us outside the staff, have been 100% correct with our assumptions and attitudes to how the project has progressed. LGN? Elysium Merger? Time and time again we've raised concerns only to get thrown under the bus. The core community you could have depended upon to kick-start the servers has long gone, never to return. You could have used this community to help you with progressing the game, but this wouldn't have suited the cliqueness of the project.

The problem with the project was that the expectations were set at an unachievable bar from the very start. These weren't set by the community, they were set by Crestfall. You could easily have started the project through the foums on the basis that it might two years or longer to launch, a real hobby project. Now that would have been realistic and sensible. Asura has sworn blind that the server would launch in 2018, again, more expectations.

I don't have an issue with hobby projects, but you have to manage those expectations and that was never thought through. Plus, the core issue was always the choke point along the way. ''Everybody has a plan until they get a punch in the face'' but there wasn't even a plan. I guess the thing that pisses me off is the lost opportunities. Crestfall may well launch at some stage this decade but the horse has bolted on to TBC and beyond. 

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Outstanding said:

The core community you could have depended upon to kick-start the servers has long gone, never to return. You could have used this community to help you with progressing the game, but this wouldn't have suited the cliqueness of the project.

Who are you talking about? I'm part of an awesome core community.

 

15 minutes ago, Outstanding said:

I guess the thing that pisses me off is the lost opportunities. Crestfall may well launch at some stage this decade but the horse has bolted on to TBC and beyond.

So the fuck what. This isn't a business. It's not about making the biggest possible amount of money. I'm pretty sure I'm predicting Darkrasp here when I say that I'd rather have servers with lower, more retail like player numbers than having multiple capped servers that are run like a product and not like a project.

Edited by maronics
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With the greatest respect to everyone in the thread, don't use my name/reputation to score political points.

I've strictly adhered to the NDA since leaving and have no interest in getting involved in mud slinging, for or against either side. Asura and Dark know why I left and no one else needs to outside of those two, and attempting to use what I might have as a personal opinion as leverage is dishonest at best.

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48 minutes ago, Elicas said:

With the greatest respect to everyone in the thread, don't use my name/reputation to score political points.

I've strictly adhered to the NDA since leaving and have no interest in getting involved in mud slinging, for or against either side. Asura and Dark know why I left and no one else needs to outside of those two, and attempting to use what I might have as a personal opinion as leverage is dishonest at best.

I have removed the reference from my post.

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12 hours ago, maronics said:

Who are you talking about? I'm part of an awesome core community.

 

So the fuck what. This isn't a business. It's not about making the biggest possible amount of money. I'm pretty sure I'm predicting Darkrasp here when I say that I'd rather have servers with lower, more retail like player numbers than having multiple capped servers that are run like a product and not like a project.

What community? Do you remember all the threads I used to do focussing on the number of members we had? Remember how we used to spilt it down to placeholders and active members? Do you think I did that for fun? That was to emphasise the correlation between activity and progress and #members. When we did something - like Open Beta - the numbers spiked, people got active, and the community grew and got focussed. That's good old fashioned PR. You slowly build up a head of steam by engaging with your player base in a defined and controlled manner.

Two weeks ago you could log on here and therre'd be 4 people online and maybe a dozen guests. That's your communinty. 

Why did that happen? Because everything was ported over to that wonderful bunch of people in Elysium, including what was left of the community. The community was awesome.  

This is nothing to do with money - except that, you need money to run this thing. You just need to find a happy medium to get by, and that requires being honest where the money come from and what you do with it.  It isn't a business, that's true. That's why servers fail. Did Gummy do a  risk assessment on his server before he put months of work into it? Did he listen to the scores of people who told him it would never work in NA? No! Because he's not running a business! Why on earth should he bother his ass spending any time actually thinking about what the consequences of being American and hosting a server in the US would be. Let's just sprinkle magic pixie on the whole thing and hope for the best.

You're 100% correct on lower cap base. Nobody want Nostalrius I or II (Elysium) or III (Let's Hope).  They just want to have a stable server with a good core, a great community and the hope, because it can only be a hope, that we'll PTE to TBC and beyond. But hey, don't mind me, we'll just use Pixie Dust.

 

 

#

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17 hours ago, maronics said:

Who are you talking about? I'm part of an awesome core community.

 

4 hours ago, Outstanding said:

What community? Do you remember all the threads I used to do focussing on the number of members we had?

...

Two weeks ago you could log on here and therre'd be 4 people online and maybe a dozen guests. That's your communinty.

These comments kinda highlight the fact that there have always been two separate CF communities imo: The one in discord/beta and the one here on the forums (with some overlap between the two ofc, but still). I assume that the first one is doing fine since Darkrasp says that no one has left the beta, but it's pretty obvious that the forum community has been dying due to a combination of slow progress, majority of the staff abandoning the forums, and the elysium drama(s).

I guess it's understandable that the forum wasn't given much attention, especially at a stage when the server wasn't ready yet, and since it was going to be swallowed whole by the masses anyway when CF was released. Still, it sucks cuz it wasn't always the case. The announcement that we would be part of Elysium and would have to migrate to their forums (almost no one did) was the final nail in the coffin ofc. Majority of the original forum community will no doubt be back for the server itself but I highly doubt many will bother to participate as actively as they once did, let alone donate to the project, after all this.

 

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Subscription should never be required to play on a private server. Main reason being it will make Blizzard's legal team go nuts and do stuff that they wouldn't normally do with f2p servers.

In my opinion for donations to work well it should be as transparent as it can be. Also access to the donation money should be divided between several (trustworthy) people so that if something goes missing someone will notice it.

Characters and gold should never be sold. It doesn't fit into vanilla WoW even though on retail you can buy levels and gold etc.

Cash shop should contain vanity items only like TCG toys, pets, mounts, tabards etc. Nothing that can be obtained through in game play!

Paid character services could also work like race change, faction change etc. especially when the client itself starts to support those features (Wotlk I believe for the most part some might be from TBC can't remember)

This is all very Blizzlike since TCG items costed money anyways though it was a game of luck at that point with the booster packs. (maybe subscribe for a monthly chance to get a random TCG item? Just brainstorming ideas :D)

I also like the basic concept of premium status like to be able to skip possible que if you're a donator as long as it doesn't get shady like Warmane (fake population drama for example) or something like that.

Just my thoughts!

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Outstanding, you continue to imply business logic to things that are not business. Whenever they release, there will be enough people that will start again on vanilla if the quality is there. Whatever amount of people will wanna play to this server when it releases will have the capability to finance it - if 50 - at least 5 will donate - the server required will be cheap enough. If 5000 - 500 will donate - enough. Everything else is just stupid demand for something nobody promised, and that was promised was promised on the internet for something that includes thousands of factors outside of people involved control. Its getting quite pathetic. Your tries to pressure the devs with some "do this or this magnificent community will leave you" is glamorous and all but when this is online no matter how many of the "glorius community" will be online, because they will be swarmed by the shitheads that plague the internet. If you don't make the private server truly private - by invitation only, its a lost cause and all those high phrases will do nothing. The nice people that contribute have their thanks. Expect less and will get more. Expect more and will surely be disappointed. Let them do whatever they decide. If they want our help - we will help, if they ignore us again - they will suffer. Anything more is just too presumptuous.

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32 minutes ago, Joyman said:

Outstanding, you continue to imply business logic to things that are not business. Whenever they release, there will be enough people that will start again on vanilla if the quality is there. Whatever amount of people will wanna play to this server when it releases will have the capability to finance it - if 50 - at least 5 will donate - the server required will be cheap enough. If 5000 - 500 will donate - enough. Everything else is just stupid demand for something nobody promised, and that was promised was promised on the internet for something that includes thousands of factors outside of people involved control. Its getting quite pathetic. Your tries to pressure the devs with some "do this or this magnificent community will leave you" is glamorous and all but when this is online no matter how many of the "glorius community" will be online, because they will be swarmed by the shitheads that plague the internet. If you don't make the private server truly private - by invitation only, its a lost cause and all those high phrases will do nothing. The nice people that contribute have their thanks. Expect less and will get more. Expect more and will surely be disappointed. Let them do whatever they decide. If they want our help - we will help, if they ignore us again - they will suffer. Anything more is just too presumptuous.

We're well past the above stage. Now we're at the naval gazing stage. There's nothing that can be done for the current position the project is in, for all I know, they may have made massive progress since I was around in April. Nobody knows. But at least we're having a conversation about it, which is 100% better than the mushroom treatment we normally get. I have no problem trashing what's left of my reputation just so the team can take into account that people still care about the project and want it to succeed.

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2 hours ago, Outstanding said:

 I have no problem trashing what's left of my reputation just so the team can take into account that people still care about the project and want it to succeed.

You sure have a weird way of showing that.

I am a lazy fuck without any special skills except a shitload of dusted WoW knowledge and dank memes, yet I try to help where I can. I'm a mod of the public discord, I'm lucky to call myself part of the great beta team and I would never consider walking away from this before it's done (except if Asura turns out to be a francophile Lizard, which I wouldn't completely rule out), because that's what you do if you like a project and want it to succeed.

 

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3 hours ago, Outstanding said:

naval gazing

 

I see no ships! (sorry, couldn't resist)

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I don’t know why the vast majority of people left this forum over the last months... but I do know why I went MIA. 

After a disastrous merger to a LGN, they tried the same move again. I debated internally if I wanted to be a part of that, and I chose to walk. I stopped playing privates all together. This specific project had my interest, and this one only. I actually like and respect the attitude Azura seems to put out. It’s done when I think it’s good enough, and not any sooner. 

Since Ely messed up, again, it looks like some of this community is possibly returning. Even if it’s mostly for “I told you so!” and “You’ll fail as long as you don’t lisen to me!”, this forum is very much readable at least once a day. 

Lol, of course the forum will now be shut down... live and learn. 

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"Do you remember all the threads?"

"Do you remember all the active members?"

"Do you remember when the community grew and got focused?"

 

 

image PR.png

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While it is sad that many of the old guard have left / become jaded, the forums have died down, and there's no release date in sight this is all kind of lol to me. Yeah, some expectations got out of hand (wasn't there some magical, secret date in 2017 at which point Asura would launch no matter what?), especially with regard to beta release hypothesizing. But honestly, I don't think staff here overhyped. I almost think that more community engagement would have made no difference. There's a set amount of time for which a fanbase of strangers will patiently engage on fora until people just get bored because there's no server. Yeah, in retrospect we were right about LGN, Elysium, etc, and we lost good community members because of that. But at the end of the day, the only real mistake I think is that this forum was launched too early. It's just been too much time for people to sit around and find things to get upset about, or grow tired. 

 

I think it is okay that the community has fragmented, with some leaving, others in hibernation, others only around as critics (some helpful, some just annoying), but that's life. We've lost some really good people. Hopefully things change in a way that allows them to rejoin and reengage. But new people will join. IF the team builds their vision of a PTE experience, people will come. Some of them will be great. Some of them will suck. C'est la vie. 

 

 @Outstanding it's a little funny to read your last two posts about community engagement because with the rate of development here...well, I don't know that that level of community engagement could have sustained itself even without LGN / LGN2.0 / personnel issues. The community could have been treated better, and it should've been, yes. Like you, I'm always shocked me when community reactions are unanticipated, announcements aren't coordinated, and any project proceeds without (what seems to me) basic levels of management. But at the end of the day, I think CF's admin have made clear this has always been a hobby project, proceeding unevenly in fits and starts, despite having professional-level goals and standards. I don't begrudge them that, though I wish development were more steady and project management handled more competently (at least the public-facing component). 

 

I stopped engaging on the forums mainly because I got tired. I'm still tired. I didn't contribute much, but it was fun becoming familiar with the people here as we anticipated an open beta or launch. After awhile, though, it was just too much time spent on a forum for a project with no launch in sight, so I felt my time was better spent elsewhere. I think there are a lot of people like me, who may be somewhat disappointed in the delays and some decisions but who are not distraught, who haven't given up, who are reasonably decent people ready to build a good community here when the time comes. It's just not yet time. I just want to buy everyone a round and toast to hopefully meeting you all in-game, even if it's not till 2020. 

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