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Wolfrig

Druid abilities scaling?

I've been thinking about rolling a druid and I'm interested in the scaling of their abilities - mostly feral, because balance and resto are spells with simple coefficient calculations at most.

I would like to know how much those Bleed dots of their scale with AP. Also, Fericious Bite is supposed to increase in dmg with AP. I'm thinking about being resto in PvE and switch between resto and feral in PvP, so I would really like to understand just how the whole Feral thing works on vanilla before I make any important choices. 

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I've never seen solid proof of the numbers anywhere, mostly because people calculate stuff for PvE dps rotations, where we're generally not allowed to use our bleeds due to the debuff limitation.

Feral abilities will work with a simple coefficient the same as boomkin/resto spells and spell damage/healing, the same as all melee AP calculations work.

http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Attack_power_coefficient Thats the only link i've ever found about it, and they're not 1.12.1 values.

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Regarding all healers, how do talents like +10% healing and + 15% healing for Rejuv/Renew actually work? Does the 10%/15% apply just to the base healing of a certain spell, or do they also increase the healing you get from gear.

For example, your gear gives you +500 healing. With + 10% heal talents, will it go to 550?

So I have a 3.5 base cast time heal spell (Healing Touch) that heals for average of, lets say, 2000 with no gear. With talents it goes to 2200. With the gear mentioned above, will the final healing be 2200 + 500 = 2700    OR    2200 + 550 = 2750?

Basically, do the base heal and heal from gear add up and then get multipliers from talents ( (2000 + 500) *1.1),
or does the base heal get multipliers from talents and then adds up with the gear heal? ( (2000 * 1.1) + 500).

I hope I didn't make this sound way more complicated that it actually is :D

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It depends on the talent, but generally the rule is a total modifier, so ((X+Y)*1.1).

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If my memory serves me the druid abilities scales like this with AP:

Rip gets 4% AP in damage per tick

Rake gets 2% AP in damage per tick

Ferocious Bite gets 3% per combo point

 

Regarding your question with % heal talents they are calculated after the coefficent so like this  ( (2000 + 500) *1.1) which give you 2750.

Edited by Dave
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I'll let more qualified people address @Wolfrig (I see they already have) but I would ask a question.

If you are going to spend your considerable time and talent levelling a Druid to 60, apart from the journey aspect, what are you looking to do afterwards?

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It has been long since I've played druid in Vanilla (10 years to be fair) and the main playstyle back then was just spamming shred and keeping your bleeds somewhat up. Your main damage came from shred (PvP wise). The bleed maximizing way of playing was discovered in later expansions and therefore I'm not sure if it is viable in vanilla. I would assume it is viable in vanilla too, but would need to test it. PvP wise druid is a viable class anyways (1v1 at least) since we've got one of the widest arsenals to play with. What we lack is the burst damage compared to other classes, but we bring utility and mobility.

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1 hour ago, Outstanding said:

I'll let more qualified people address @Wolfrig (I see they already have) but I would ask a question.

If you are going to spend your considerable time and talent levelling a Druid to 60, apart from the journey aspect, what are you looking to do afterwards?

Resto in both PvE and PvP cause I like healing/supporting. After I while I might get bored with it and that's why I want to know more about feral (and eventually balance) - from time to time I will want to kill something. I like druid playstyle and lore, and they seem like a class that has a lot of potential once you really master it, which means there will be a lot for me to learn on 60.

The reason I asked about healing coefficient and gear is because on Feenix, it wasn't (X+Y) * 1,1, but (X*1,1) + Y, which I found weird, and on Nost forums some people told me that the (X*1,1) + Y is the correct way, which again surprised me. I hope you peeps are right about this, cause it makes quite a difference for Rejuvenation with 10% AND 15% talent increase. 

Edited by Wolfrig
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41 minutes ago, jonu said:

It has been long since I've played druid in Vanilla (10 years to be fair) and the main playstyle back then was just spamming shred and keeping your bleeds somewhat up. Your main damage came from shred (PvP wise). The bleed maximizing way of playing was discovered in later expansions and therefore I'm not sure if it is viable in vanilla. I would assume it is viable in vanilla too, but would need to test it. PvP wise druid is a viable class anyways (1v1 at least) since we've got one of the widest arsenals to play with. What we lack is the burst damage compared to other classes, but we bring utility and mobility.

Looking at max rank spells, disregarding gear and presuming max CP usage using the standard talent builds including;

250 base damage for ease of calculation.
20% Rake Damage,
15% Ferocious Bite damage,
Reduced Shred cost (-12 energy)
10% increased physical (all bleed damage is physical school) damage from Natural Weapons

Shred V - 48 energy - 225% + 180 - 1CP = ((250*2.25)+180)*1.10 = 816.75 or 17.01 damage per energy.

Rip VI - 30 energy - 942 over 12 seconds = 942*1.10 = 1036.2 or 34.54 damage per energy.

Rake IV - 40 energy - 58 + 96 over 9 seconds - 1CP = (58+96)*1.3 = 200.2 or 5.005 per energy.

Ferocious Bite V - 35 energy - 787-847 + 175.5 (if used at 100 energy) = (817+175.5)*1.25 = 1240.625 or 12.40 damage per energy (when used at 100 energy) or (817*1.25) = 1021.25 or 29.17 damage per energy (when used at 35 energy).

Depending on how AP scaling actually works (which I'm unsure of), the most effective damage per energy is to Shred to 4/5 CP, Rip, Shred to 4/5 CP, FB if >4 seconds left on Rip, otherwise pool and Rip. Rake should only be used if you can't get behind the target for some reason.

I'm 99% sure the forumula is (X+Y)*1.Z, but will check some more sources and re-confirm.

Edited by Elicas
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Aha. OK so I can't comment on the technical side (if you ever see me do this, tell me to stop), but I can comment on how you will fare PvE on end content.

We've been doing a *lot* of work behind the scenes checking up on old guilds, and one thing that struck me on their recruitment threads was the need for Resto Druids. They are always in demand with each faction. This shouldn't come as a surprise when you look at class population stats. So unless our PvE realms have an aberration, as a Druid, getting a Resto slot for end raiding should be easy, even for  snowflake people like me. Feral side, maybe 1 guild in 5 had it as an option in terms of recruiting, I think based on the 50+ guilds I looked at, only one had an open slot. So Elicas would have his work cut out, but if anyone can do it....

 

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post your data and wait for beta for class testing.. gonna need it for sure. :)

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On 2016-08-02 at 0:52 AM, imbaslap said:

post your data and wait for beta for class testing.. gonna need it for sure. :)

Can you check if Moonfury is applied on base damage or on total dmg? I know it only affected base damage on some private servers, while all other classes equivalent talent gave bonus to total damage.

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5 hours ago, Allor said:

Can you check if Moonfury is applied on base damage or on total dmg? I know it only affected base damage on some private servers, while all other classes equivalent talent gave bonus to total damage.

it should always be from the base damage.

having it after outside modifiers would be broken.

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1 hour ago, imbaslap said:

it should always be from the base damage.

having it after outside modifiers would be broken.

Well, aren't 'Fire Power', 'Arcane Instability', 'Darkness', 'Emberstorm', 'Shadow Mastery' and all other 25+ talents applied to total damage? It seems weird if Moonfury would be the exception. Is it intended to not work in the same way as the others?

Edit: Or if all the others are applied to base damage only, in that case, I've been misinformed.

Edited by Allor
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53 minutes ago, Allor said:

Well, aren't 'Fire Power', 'Arcane Instability', 'Darkness', 'Emberstorm', 'Shadow Mastery' and all other 25+ talents applied to total damage? It seems weird if Moonfury would be the exception. Is it intended to not work in the same way as the others?

Edit: Or if all the others are applied to base damage only, in that case, I've been misinformed.

those should be based damage..

i dont see why a talent would affect "after" gear or buffs. that makes 0 sense.

all the healing talents from druid and priest affect base healing amounts from healing spells also.

 

you might be confusing certain spells and their affects.

most of those give a % boost to all listed class spells that fall under the category.

emberstorm = all warlock fire damage spells and ranks get 10% boost to base damage and DOT component

arcane instability 3% boost to all mage spells base damage and 3% boost to all DOT components with a flat 3% spell crit chance on all offensive mage spells of all ranks.

same thing for darkness and shadow mastery. it's shown very clearly in QSW.

it only modifies the spells in the class/specific school. it is also concurrent with the Theorycraft Addon that shows min-max and modifiers to spells both healing and damage with or without talents. you can even see as a naked 60 what 5/5 darkness or emberstorm does to your spells with the 10% bonus then add gear and see the 10% is still the base damage value only. it was one of the reasons i opted out of the holy tree as a priest because the 10% base healing boost wasnt worth it versus getting Power infusion as a priest for healing.

hope this helps in your theorycrafting adventures. :) 

 

Edited by imbaslap
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23 minutes ago, imbaslap said:

those should be based damage..

i dont see why a talent would affect "after" gear or buffs. that makes 0 sense.

all the healing talents from druid and priest affect base healing amounts from healing spells also.

 

you might be confusing certain spells and their affects.

most of those give a % boost to all listed class spells that fall under the category.

emberstorm = all warlock fire damage spells and ranks get 10% boost to base damage and DOT component

arcane instability 3% boost to all mage spells base damage and 3% boost to all DOT components with a flat 3% spell crit chance on all offensive mage spells of all ranks.

same thing for darkness and shadow mastery. it's shown very clearly in QSW.

it only modifies the spells in the class/specific school. it is also concurrent with the Theorycraft Addon that shows min-max and modifiers to spells both healing and damage with or without talents. you can even see as a naked 60 what 5/5 darkness or emberstorm does to your spells with the 10% bonus then add gear and see the 10% is still the base damage value only. it was one of the reasons i opted out of the holy tree as a priest because the 10% base healing boost wasnt worth it versus getting Power infusion as a priest for healing.

hope this helps in your theorycrafting adventures. :) 

 

Yes, you're completely correct and it makes much more sense, thank you! :)

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