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Whitepanda

Hardcore raiders from Nostalrius help me here <NOPE> <Dreamstate> <Coalition>

68 posts in this topic

Alot of you guys did what is showed in the clip below if u where in the 3 guilds in the topic.

My question to you is

1. How the hell did the tanks keep aggro from this crazy DPS. This is not Cata+ where tanks cant lose aggro after 1 meele hit!

2. How the hell do the healers manage to keep their mana up? Do the tanks take 0 DMG because the mobs just melt?

3. And last: How the hell can this be prevented? How can u make for example Gehennas dangerous when his mechanic is a simple AoE u just have to run out?

 

Edited by Whitepanda
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Gehennas isn't a particularly difficult boss.  His mechanics are lacking.  The only real way to increase the difficulty on him is to improve the frequency and efficacy of his attacks.  For example, have his random shadowbolts fire out much more frequently and give a higher chance to prioritize targets who are stunned by the adds, or low on life, thereby reducing any margin for error.  Even so, Gehennas is going to be a walkover for most raids with half decent execution because he isn't a gear wall, or a resist wall.  There is a lot more room to improve on other fights, namely Magmadar, Majordomo and Ragnaros.

That said, I am interested in hearing the answers, should any be forthcoming, from the other guilds, especially with regard to threat.

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29 minutes ago, Darkrasp said:

That said, I am interested in hearing the answers, should any be forthcoming, from the other guilds, especially with regard to threat.

The dev is also intrested!

Zetox and Slippry im looking at you to tell us, you hardcore nost nerds <3

Edited by Whitepanda
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Tanks wear a lot of dps gear instead of tanking gear for MC speed clears. Items like Lionheart Helm are amazing for TPS, even if they have no Stamina/Defense. Mighty Rage Potions are used right before boss pulls. Also while Horde do not have Salvation, Windfury is almost always given to tanks for more TPS. -Armor debuffs like Sunder, Faerie Fire, Curse of Recklessness, and Ungoro crystal are all stacked- which boosts TPS (and warrior/rogue/hunter) damage further.

 

With trash/bosses dying so fast, there is very little raid damage going out- which helps the healers save mana. Apart from this, healers spam drink when out of combat. Usually 2-3 will drink a little longer than the others. And of course there are always Major Mana Potions + Demonic Runes to help compensate. Also items like Greater Arcane Protection potions are used on Shazzrah to negate his arcane explosion hitting all the melee. Greater Fire Protection potions are used by melee on Magmadar and by everyone on Rag.

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13 minutes ago, Sona said:

Tanks wear a lot of dps gear instead of tanking gear for MC speed clears. Items like Lionheart Helm are amazing for TPS, even if they have no Stamina/Defense. Mighty Rage Potions are used right before boss pulls. Also while Horde do not have Salvation, Windfury is almost always given to tanks for more TPS. -Armor debuffs like Sunder, Faerie Fire, Curse of Recklessness, and Ungoro crystal are all stacked- which boosts TPS (and warrior/rogue/hunter) damage further.

 

With trash/bosses dying so fast, there is very little raid damage going out- which helps the healers save mana. Apart from this, healers spam drink when out of combat. Usually 2-3 will drink a little longer than the others. And of course there are always Major Mana Potions + Demonic Runes to help compensate. Also items like Greater Arcane Protection potions are used on Shazzrah to negate his arcane explosion hitting all the melee. Greater Fire Protection potions are used by melee on Magmadar and by everyone on Rag.

Oh did not know healers spammed mana pots in vanilla.

I use to spam Mana pots as a healer on Feenix TBC back in T4 and i thought that was expensive god dont want to imagen how costly it will be for vanilla healers to spam mana pots.

Edited by Whitepanda
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They aren't spamming them but they are available to use. They also aren't that expensive. 3 Dreamfoil, 2 Icecap. Dreamfoil usually sells for 5-7g a stack and Icecap sells for 10-14g a stack.

 

That said, if things like Hunter Tribute Farm, aoe DME lasher farm are nerfed- it might be harder to earn gold and afford that stuff on Crestfall :)

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Mana wasn't an issue until BWL. I never used wizard oils and mana pots in MC. Then again I was also a druid. 

Also to answer some questions for OP 

Raids would let tanks build up a certain threat margin before attacking/healing. As a druid pre hotting tanks was a big no no because I'd have more threat than the tank before he even got a sunder up.

Speed runs easily achievable because guilds like nope and dream state all had insane gear and every buff in game. Warrior tanks with thunderfury would never loose aggro.

Edited by MadeByRockets
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I was a healer in Dreamstate and can just say: everyone perfects his/her gear to the top end lvl. Thats why you dont run out of mana.

Its easier to heal because you have and generate more mana and on the other side your targets get less damage.

Also important: everyone knows how to play and knows how not to aggro. and you have pots/runes on CD if needed. (also massive use of buffs for those vids)

You can max your thread, but just stay under the tank. if so: slow down. its just as simple as that. also on some mobs you just nuke and let the mob switch aggro, healers were so overgeared that they easily kept you alive.

Edited by Budge
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1. How the hell did the tanks keep aggro from this crazy DPS. This is not Cata+ where tanks cant lose aggro after 1 meele hit!

World Buffs + dps gear.

2. How the hell do the healers manage to keep their mana up? Do the tanks take 0 DMG because the mobs just melt?

bis healing gear + pots

3. And last: How the hell can this be prevented? How can u make for example Gehennas dangerous when his mechanic is a simple AoE u just have to run out?

We're figuring out ways no worries :)

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5 hours ago, Darkrasp said:

Gehennas isn't a particularly difficult boss.  His mechanics are lacking.  The only real way to increase the difficulty on him is to improve the frequency and efficacy of his attacks.  For example, have his random shadowbolts fire out much more frequently and give a higher chance to prioritize targets who are stunned by the adds, or low on life, thereby reducing any margin for error.  Even so, Gehennas is going to be a walkover for most raids with half decent execution because he isn't a gear wall, or a resist wall.  There is a lot more room to improve on other fights, namely Magmadar, Majordomo and Ragnaros.

That said, I am interested in hearing the answers, should any be forthcoming, from the other guilds, especially with regard to threat.

All of these videos that people are linking have one thing is common, the people are grossly overgearing the content they are clearing. 
This was always possible in theory, even back in vanilla, and it always should be. You can start ignoring certain mechanics to an extent with or without worldbuffs as long as your raid is overgearing the content. 
Add a little zest to bosses and the initial challenge for people with UBRS blues will still be there though, and your average raid will not be a faceroll by any means.

Don't punish the top performers by nerfing world buffs and consumables, theres absolutely no logic behind it.

@Budge summarized things pretty well above. 
The tanks are able to generate high threat per second while wearing a lot of dps gear, which is not really an option for at least a few months.

3 hours ago, Budge said:

I was a healer in Dreamstate and can just say: everyone perfects his/her gear to the top end lvl. Thats why you dont run out of mana.

Its easier to heal because you have and generate more mana and on the other side your targets get less damage.

Also important: everyone knows how to play and knows how not to aggro. and you have pots/runes on CD if needed. (also massive use of buffs for those vids)

You can max your thread, but just stay under the tank. if so: slow down. its just as simple as that. also on some mobs you just nuke and let the mob switch aggro, healers were so overgeared that they easily kept you alive.

To put things back in perspective, Grizzly's first rag kill on nost, the excitement is still there!

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42 minutes ago, surveillance said:

All of these videos that people are linking have one thing is common, the people are grossly overgearing the content they are clearing. 
This was always possible in theory, even back in vanilla, and it always should be. You can start ignoring certain mechanics to an extent with or without worldbuffs as long as your raid is overgearing the content. 
Add a little zest to bosses and the initial challenge for people with UBRS blues will still be there though, and your average raid will not be a faceroll by any means.

Don't punish the top performers by nerfing world buffs and consumables, theres absolutely no logic behind it.

@Budge summarized things pretty well above. 
The tanks are able to generate high threat per second while wearing a lot of dps gear, which is not really an option for at least a few months.

To put things back in perspective, Grizzly's first rag kill on nost, the excitement is still there!

That video is a joke

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On 8/6/2016 at 10:43 AM, Budge said:

I was a healer in Dreamstate and can just say: everyone perfects his/her gear to the top end lvl. Thats why you dont run out of mana.

Its easier to heal because you have and generate more mana and on the other side your targets get less damage.

Also important: everyone knows how to play and knows how not to aggro. and you have pots/runes on CD if needed. (also massive use of buffs for those vids)

You can max your thread, but just stay under the tank. if so: slow down. its just as simple as that. also on some mobs you just nuke and let the mob switch aggro, healers were so overgeared that they easily kept you alive.

I forgot, did Dreamstate get their thunderfury bindings? We we're raiding for over 6 months and never got Garr... 

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nope, we only had members from other guilds who got it there. I quit before the server died, but I dont think that Don got the other set of the bindings ;)

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This sheet is an example of the threat set tanks used, this was my set. The stat totals marked in red in particular were balanced. (Note: Patch 1.8 gear stats)

4NmetnJ.png

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2 hours ago, Walgrave said:

This sheet is an example of the threat set tanks used, this was my set. The stat totals marked in red in particular were balanced. (Note: Patch 1.8 gear stats)

4NmetnJ.png

Hum so warriors used DPS gear to keep up with threat.

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On 2016-08-06 at 5:25 PM, Whitepanda said:

1. How the hell did the tanks keep aggro from this crazy DPS. This is not Cata+ where tanks cant lose aggro after 1 meele hit!

2. How the hell do the healers manage to keep their mana up? Do the tanks take 0 DMG because the mobs just melt?

3. And last: How the hell can this be prevented? How can u make for example Gehennas dangerous when his mechanic is a simple AoE u just have to run out?

Threat & Aggro: Not to much of an issue on Alliance, if the tank can't keep aggro there you need to send him to Horde for a 2month bootcamp or just find a better tank. That being said, the only time I recall Monga (you're a flower), Plask or Chiz having problems with aggro was when they had no world buffs whatsoever and the rest of the raid were buffed to the teeth including DMF +% dmg buff.

Mana: The raid damage taken is low unless something unusual occurs, during non speedruns some would whisper melees to deliberately take more damage so they could boost their personal HPS for raidstats.

Prevention: There's no reason this should be "prevented", you have melees running around with 7-9k health due to all buffs, pots & flasks - the individual margin of error is extremely high as such. What would drive most insane though is if you buff the Garr buff dispell sequence as the raid would lose all DM & raid buffs unless they constantly respam other "magic" buffs.

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On 06/08/2016 at 11:16 PM, Arucado said:

That video is a joke

Nos 'fully scripted' was a joke. 1 to Rag in two weeks was pretty fun, shame the guild had no staying power.

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6 hours ago, DeeMarie said:

Nos 'fully scripted' was a joke. 1 to Rag in two weeks was pretty fun, shame the guild had no staying power.

therefore, the video is a joke.

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DPS gear + world buffs + consumables on tanks + you have to hold back as Horde warrior on certain fights.

Also, boss damage is way too low at that level of HP + armor.  DPS warriors have around 10k HP so you can tank most of the bosses as dps. 

Nerfing world buffs + consumables would be punishing high end guilds. Buffing bosses would be punishing low end guilds. None can survive without the other so I would consider twice before altering any of those.

Edited by Arts
typo
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2 hours ago, Arts said:

DPS gear + world buffs + consumables on tanks + you have hold back as Horde warrior on certain fights.

Also, boss damage is way too low at that level of HP + armor.  DPS warriors have around 10k HP so you can tank most of the bosses as dps. 

Nerfing world buffs + consumables would be punishing high end guilds. Buffing bosses would be punishing low end guilds. None can survive without the other so I would consider twice before altering any of those.

Are you Arts from the dreamstate video?

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4 hours ago, Arucado said:

therefore, the video is a joke.

I can't even remember what was missing, Magma Splash or something that should have started one shotting people when the melee died? Still, as this thread shows, the fun isn't in downing ten year old content, but how fast you can do it compared to other guilds.

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2 hours ago, Whitepanda said:

Are you Arts from the dreamstate video?

Yea

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It's an interesting video.  What's strange to me is the paucity of AoE damage being taken.  Grouping up the Flamewaker Elites on Majordomo should just about wreck anything close to them from the chained Blastwaves, and yet nobody appears to be taking any damage at all, despite having no Fire Resist gear on whatsoever.  Similarily in the Ragnaros fight there's no environmental damage at all.  Players should normally be eating some significant fire damage through the entire fight, regardless of positioning, from repeated Lava Bursts.

Take a look at this guy's health starting around the two minute mark, there are other points but this shows what I'm talking about.  Rag isn't casting Wrath of Ragnaros, there's no melee AoE knockback going on, this guy takes 256 fire damage, then 479 fire damage, and then a second later 770 fire damage, all partially resisted from the 1k damage it does with no resist, and he takes further chip damage and bursts all through the fight.  Not getting targeted by Annihilate, not getting hit by the melee knockback, just environmental damage from all the gameobject Lava Bursts that are supposed to be there, but never, ever are.  On private server videos all the ranged just happily nuke away in full DPS gear and never have to worry about anything except Annihilate, if that's even scripted properly.  On retail, unless you had significant stat points invested in Fire Resist, Rag would just work you over.

We don't really have to "buff" Ragnaros at all, though we will most likely improve his AI anyways.  All we have to do is fix him.

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This is the "first" MC speed run I ever saw, at least it was the one I watched back in Vanilla days:
 

 

I mean, they are half potted, they have at least 1 MS warrior, the Rogue as far as I can tell never uses SnD etc. and their time's still not god awful. As for the damage the Tank takes on the rag fight, it doesn't seem too harsh, but it's very hard to tell from the video, because you can only see % damage hes taking, don't know if he has 4K HP or 10K.

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2 hours ago, Darkrasp said:

It's an interesting video.  What's strange to me is the paucity of AoE damage being taken.  Grouping up the Flamewaker Elites on Majordomo should just about wreck anything close to them from the chained Blastwaves, and yet nobody appears to be taking any damage at all, despite having no Fire Resist gear on whatsoever.  Similarily in the Ragnaros fight there's no environmental damage at all.  Players should normally be eating some significant fire damage through the entire fight, regardless of positioning, from repeated Lava Bursts.

Take a look at this guy's health starting around the two minute mark, there are other points but this shows what I'm talking about.  Rag isn't casting Wrath of Ragnaros, there's no melee AoE knockback going on, this guy takes 256 fire damage, then 479 fire damage, and then a second later 770 fire damage, all partially resisted from the 1k damage it does with no resist, and he takes further chip damage and bursts all through the fight.  Not getting targeted by Annihilate, not getting hit by the melee knockback, just environmental damage from all the gameobject Lava Bursts that are supposed to be there, but never, ever are.  On private server videos all the ranged just happily nuke away in full DPS gear and never have to worry about anything except Annihilate, if that's even scripted properly.  On retail, unless you had significant stat points invested in Fire Resist, Rag would just work you over.

We don't really have to "buff" Ragnaros at all, though we will most likely improve his AI anyways.  All we have to do is fix him.

Flamewaker Elites do blastwaves in DS's video, these blast waves do less than 1k damage and most of those melees have well over 6k health. The melees are getting spam chain healed from 6 shamans, but you can still see them take blast waves if you look at raid frames.

Everyone has a greater fire protection potion on for rag, melee gets out for aoe knockback which happens every 30 seconds. The raid is spread out and isn't chaining his fire nuke ability to other players/mana users. Ragnaros is melted in less than one minute before he can ever wear through player's greater fire protection pots. This is only possible with overgear/world buffs. His other ability that instakills people should only happen when there's no one in melee range(which shouldn't happen given a competent offtank/pets).

Its basically possible to kill rag with combination of fire protection pots/good raid damage(gear/buffs) and positioning. Fire resistance is only needed on tanks, enough of his abilities are avoidable, rest can be healed through. People approached the fight "differently" back in the day.

If you compare DS video to HoH video, you can see who is not following the fight's mechanics on Rag and therefore takes way more overall damage.

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