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Darkrasp

Darkrasp's Update 8/8/2016

66 posts in this topic
8 minutes ago, surveillance said:

r14 weapons will have updated stats at release.

cool beans

>rank 14

Edited by Mecher
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My personal opinion on the updated pvp sets: They were released in retail at the Naxxramas patch, and were on par with the gear you would have received from AQ. On Nostalrius, the updated sets came with ZG, and for many classes, the 2 piece bonuses easily outclassed the raid items for those slots. It was simply too early. I understand that PvP'ers want the best gear as soon as possible but releasing such amazing gear so early creates more imbalance than holding the gear until raiding content that it was made equivalent to was released.

It should also be said that you can get the upgraded gear as soon as it's upgraded if you've ever received the rank required for it so if you want the best gear, you won't have to hold off on your pvp grind nor will you have to wait until you start grinding. You just simply get held off on getting the amazing items until it makes sense from an itemization balance. Releasing at AQ is the middle ground compromise between BWL (too early) and Naxxramas (too late).

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28 minutes ago, Rembrandt said:

My personal opinion on the updated pvp sets: They were released in retail at the Naxxramas patch, and were on par with the gear you would have received from AQ. On Nostalrius, the updated sets came with ZG, and for many classes, the 2 piece bonuses easily outclassed the raid items for those slots. It was simply too early. I understand that PvP'ers want the best gear as soon as possible but releasing such amazing gear so early creates more imbalance than holding the gear until raiding content that it was made equivalent to was released.

It should also be said that you can get the upgraded gear as soon as it's upgraded if you've ever received the rank required for it so if you want the best gear, you won't have to hold off on your pvp grind nor will you have to wait until you start grinding. You just simply get held off on getting the amazing items until it makes sense from an itemization balance. Releasing at AQ is the middle ground compromise between BWL (too early) and Naxxramas (too late).

i personally think ZG is a better middle ground for the sets to be updated, 2 months after BWL release gives people time to get comparatively as good of gear for competing in pvp. the time between bwl release and AQ opening (i am assuming the update would come with AQ opening and not the wareffort) could be a fucking load of time potentially, provided that efforts have been made to stop guilds from hoarding war effort materials before hand by the devs. anyone actively participating in raid content will be using full updated t1/t2 and other assorted pve loot for the entirety of their pvp career until AQ as it is better than the pre-updated sets, then as soon as AQ is released every class except for warrior will immediately swap out 3/6 of their r13 set for t2.5

not to mention this is 12 year old content that people have familiarized themselves with; pugs were able to clear BWL on nost, ranking to 12-14 remains just as hard if not harder and more time consuming than anything in vanilla wow pve and holding the updated gear back to the point where any regular raidlogging pve hero is able to get comparative and better gear to AFK in IF/Org with seems kind of ridiculous. why shouldnt the individuals who have spent a minimum 12 weeks of their life playing 16-20 hours a day (realistically it is 25-50% longer unless youre able to control bracket 1 from server start) doing the same thing over and over not be rewarded with gear that outclasses current pve gear for a while?

Edited by Mecher
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1 minute ago, Mecher said:

i personally think ZG is a better middle ground for the sets to be updated, 2 months after BWL release gives people time to get comparatively as good of gear for competing in pvp. the time between bwl release and AQ opening (i am assuming the update would come with AQ opening and not the wareffort) could be a fucking load of time potentially, provided that efforts have been made to stop guilds from hoarding war effort materials before hand by the devs. anyone actively participating in raid content will be using full updated t1/t2 and other assorted pve loot for the entirety of their pvp career until AQ as it is better than the pre-updated sets, then as soon as AQ is released every class except for warrior will immediately swap out 3/6 of their r13 set for t2.5

not to mention this is 12 year old content that people have familiarized themselves with; pugs were able to clear BWL on nost, ranking to 12-14 remains just as hard if not harder and more time consuming than anything in vanilla wow pve and holding the updated gear back to the point where any regular pve hero is able to get comparative and better gear seems kind of ridiculous. why shouldnt the individuals who have spent a minimum 12 weeks of their life playing 16-20 hours a day (realistically it is 25-50% longer) doing the same thing over and over not be rewarded with gear that outclasses current pve gear for a while?

The R14 weapons are still better than anything else. If you want those, you can get those. The pvp sets shouldn't easily outclass everything else in the game because some pvp'ers think they deserve it - mostly because they've been able to have that gear on other servers way before it was originally released that didn't care about balance at all.

We had a discussion over this and in thinking about the overall well-being of the server balance, the compromise was upgrading the items in the AQ patch. It's one full raid earlier than was originally released and maintains a pvp / pve balance better than any other option. 

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47 minutes ago, Rembrandt said:

The R14 weapons are still better than anything else. If you want those, you can get those. The pvp sets shouldn't easily outclass everything else in the game because some pvp'ers think they deserve it - mostly because they've been able to have that gear on other servers way before it was originally released that didn't care about balance at all.

We had a discussion over this and in thinking about the overall well-being of the server balance, the compromise was upgrading the items in the AQ patch. It's one full raid earlier than was originally released and maintains a pvp / pve balance better than any other option. 

the only classes that are able to realistically benefit from r14 weapons in pve are warrior and rogue, BWL and AV weapons even outclass the additional r14 weapons released in Naxx for casters, even the regular r14 staff can be replaced in fucking MC with mageblade/AV offhand. CTS/Chul/Maladath/Brut and Ashkhandi/BRE arent even THAT much worse than r14. with 1.12.1 updated tier sets some classes (paladin/lock) benefit marginally or not at all from r13 gear over regular t2 (ironic youd complain about pvp set imbalance while using 1.12.1 itemized tier sets)


the pvp sets also dont outclass everything in PvE content pre-aq, i dont know who came up with this misconception. the 2 piece r10 warrior/rogue set is worse than leggings of the fallen crusader/malfurions chest piece/t2 and there are similar item combinations for literally every class in BWL that outclasses the pvp rank 10 2 set. even at r13 you only use 2 pieces of the set combined with BWL/MC loot

how can you have the audacity to claim pvpers dont care about item balance when they want the hardest gear to get in vanilla to be relevant during any content when you have shit like Choker of the Firelord, Onslaught Girdle, Lionheart Helm, etc. that all exist in MC upon release, are easy as fuck to get and are either BIS forever or outclass literally everything until AQ/Naxx. how is wanting updated sets to be relevant for PvP/PvE before majority of classes replace half or more of the set immediately breaking any amount of presumed "balance" vanilla had (protip vanilla isnt balanced at all you pretentious PvE server shit). a very very small minority of players will have access to this gear anyway, i dont see how that is server breaking


the reason the sets werent updated until Naxx on retail is because less than 1% of the entire fucking population actually had opportunity to see all of t2.5 gear, let alone naxx, where as on any private server majority of people will see all the content and reap its benefits

Edited by Mecher
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Again, this is something that we'll determine when we get a little closer, and it also depends on how players are doing with the content at the time.  If everyone is blitzing BWL by the time ZG is released, then there's no incentive to release earlier.  If people are struggling, then introducing the gear as a catch-up might be a good idea. 

Suffice to say there is roughly a 90 day window, depending on how long the War Effort takes to complete, between ZG and AQ.  Somewhere in that window we'll upgrade both the PvP and PvE items.

I like the discussion here because this is clearly something a lot of you have spent a lot more time considering than I have.  I ask only that you keep things friendly and positive.  Instead of just arguing your own point of view, try to find a compromise.  We usually like to find an acceptable middle ground, and if you as a community can do that on your own, it makes our job a lot easier.

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Thanks for the update @Darkrasp! It's nice to hear that you're finally done with creature loot. Give yourself a pat on the back man, you deserve it. :D I'm just a bit curious, in your update from 5/23/2016 you wrote: 

Quote

Our current creature_loot table has just shy of 600,000 entries.  If things go as planned here, when I'm done we'll do the same thing in well under 20,000.  I'm shooting for 12,000, which would be a 98% reduction in size, and hopefully, enough to push our server boot time under 2 seconds (currently it's 2.3s).

How many entries did you end up having to make? Did the increase in efficiency reduce the server boot time like you had hoped? :) 

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I think I clocked in at about 32k, due to some changes we made to how world drops were handled, and the sheer number of templates I had to create.  I don't have an exact number, we aren't actually activating the new loot engine and putting all this into the database until the other loot types are finished.  Still, that's roughly a 95% reduction.  I'm pretty happy with that.  

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4 hours ago, Mecher said:

the only classes that are able to realistically benefit from r14 weapons in pve are warrior and rogue, BWL and AV weapons even outclass the additional r14 weapons released in Naxx for casters, even the regular r14 staff can be replaced in fucking MC with mageblade/AV offhand. CTS/Chul/Maladath/Brut and Ashkhandi/BRE arent even THAT much worse than r14. with 1.12.1 updated tier sets some classes (paladin/lock) benefit marginally or not at all from r13 gear over regular t2 (ironic youd complain about pvp set imbalance while using 1.12.1 itemized tier sets)


the pvp sets also dont outclass everything in PvE content pre-aq, i dont know who came up with this misconception. the 2 piece r10 warrior/rogue set is worse than leggings of the fallen crusader/malfurions chest piece/t2 and there are similar item combinations for literally every class in BWL that outclasses the pvp rank 10 2 set. even at r13 you only use 2 pieces of the set combined with BWL/MC loot

how can you have the audacity to claim pvpers dont care about item balance when they want the hardest gear to get in vanilla to be relevant during any content when you have shit like Choker of the Firelord, Onslaught Girdle, Lionheart Helm, etc. that all exist in MC upon release, are easy as fuck to get and are either BIS forever or outclass literally everything until AQ/Naxx. how is wanting updated sets to be relevant for PvP/PvE before majority of classes replace half or more of the set immediately breaking any amount of presumed "balance" vanilla had (protip vanilla isnt balanced at all you pretentious PvE server shit). a very very small minority of players will have access to this gear anyway, i dont see how that is server breaking


the reason the sets werent updated until Naxx on retail is because less than 1% of the entire fucking population actually had opportunity to see all of t2.5 gear, let alone naxx, where as on any private server majority of people will see all the content and reap its benefits

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=21622 AQ40 weapon IDENTICAL Stats.

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=23451 R14 wep

Please tell me again how the GM gear is on par with BWL/AV gear... No caster will use the shit staff when they have that to use. 

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=23454 R14 healing mace

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=21839 AQ40 mace from the LAST BOSS in AQ40... 

The R14 healing mace is almost on par with a wep that you'll have until end content naxx. 

R12-13 warrior gear is BIS until aq40. No gear will replace it. 

Also http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=18816 perdition blade from MC

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=18838 R14 dagger

Those rogues are really benefiting from the gear! 

 

Edited by MadeByRockets
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1 hour ago, MadeByRockets said:

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=21622 AQ40 weapon IDENTICAL Stats.

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=23451 R14 wep

Please tell me again how the GM gear is on par with BWL/AV gear... No caster will use the shit staff when they have that to use. 

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=23454 R14 healing mace

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=21839 AQ40 mace from the LAST BOSS in AQ40... 

The R14 healing mace is almost on par with a wep that you'll have until end content naxx. 

R12-13 warrior gear is BIS until aq40. No gear will replace it. 

Also http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=18816 perdition blade from MC

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?item=18838 R14 dagger

Those rogues are really benefiting from the gear! 

 

GM staff is shit, lokamir has more spell damage on it
GM spell damage dagger is also shit, lokamir has more spell damage on it
both of these are outclassed by mageblade + av tome in terms of spell damage, hardly making the grind to 14 for an extra like 30 spell damage worth it
GM tomes are all shit compared to the ones you can get out of AV exalted
the additional 2 hand mace is complete dogshit
all of these items come out in fucking Naxx so why would you use any of them when any respectable r14 person actually using them in PvE (which is where all of these issues are stemming from) will already have their equivalent items off of AQ bosses

when did I ever say I was advocating for the r14 weapons added in naxx to be pushed forward (although they should be tbh); i was stating how they are outclassed which only further helps my case in saying that they arent as game breaking as everyone seems to think (literally every single addition other than the healing mace and to a lesser extent the quickblades that rogues already have an alternative for and warriors dont need are outclassed in BWL and i personally think its completely retarded how much the r14 weapons sway in terms of viability from one end of the spectrum to the other; they should all be tuned to AQ specs but alas)

2 pieces of the r13 warrior set are bis until AQ, one of which is replaced in AQ for sure (i dont remember when titanic leggings came out, probably 1.11) jeez all that work slogging through BGs just for conquerors shoulders to be a free epic in AQ40, leaving you with 1 single finally relevant pve applicable r12 item, that arent that much better than legguards of the fallen crusader, after 3 months of grueling honor farm, talk about #unbalanced

>r14 rogues not using swords

if youre going to shitpost you're going to have to try a little harder than that

the whole point of this argument is that the r12/13/14 gear isnt as amazingly overpowered and unbalanced as everyone seems to think and has no reason to be released as late as AQ when it is either outclassed immediately or on par. why should items that are infinitely harder to get than any pve gear be on par to something your average pve hero can get relatively easily by just showing up to raid once a week. whats the point of having shitty outclassed pvp gear when the time between ZG and AQ opening is the most relevant time to be pvping? i should really just make a paladin and get full 1.12.1 itemization judgement and hand of rag for fat reckbombs at the start of BWL all the way through till AQ release

Edited by Mecher
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What magical 'imbalance' are you talking about @Rembrandt? Please give circumstances and examples of what you're talking about when you say 'well being' and use terms like 'balance.' 

Where is the imbalance for giving someone who has spent 12+hrs a day for months better PvP gear to use in PvP? That's the purpose of PvPing is to obtain better gear for it; PvE gear is better for Pve

There are 1-2 pieces in the PvP set that are useful for PVE; so it's not feasible to say that there is much of any PVE advantage.

The idea that giving players a reward during the time (which is exactly what the period between zg and aq is for) ---- TO PVP; is the right time change it.

When AQ comes around most classes will not use even the updated rank PVP gear but rather AQ PVE gear to PVP  essentially making r10-r13 obsolete.

Edited by Zetox
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You should take into account how many players will actually be able to go for rank 13+ and you will quickly figure out that it will not create some sort of imbalance in the server as a whole.

There's no reason to take away pvp rewards from the 1%(or less, literally) of players that will be able to achieve them before release of AQ, when these items are still relevant.

If pvp gear is updated with AQ, it will be rendered useless within a week or two by AQ40 items. Updating pvp gear with release of ZG is the sensible thing to do.

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First of all, thanks @Darkrasp, its amazing to see your dedication towards keeping the community updated. Secondly, i've never been a PvPer myself but seeing the arguments of "we work way harder for the gear" seems quite reasonable, thats why ZG seems like a nice mediator of releasing the new PvP gear. Again, these updates are amazing and the work you guys are putting into this is honestly astounding, if there are any more things you want from the community, dont hesitate to trail our determination towards this server.

Nogar

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Just an observation.. 

Seems to me, most of the issues surrounding PvE bosses is how to modify them to make them harder as the challenge is insufficient to the top guilds. 

The PvP end seems to be working as intended and is likely to be just as challenging as it was in vanilla, depending on population numbers. 

Therefore, an acknowledgement to the difficulty of attaining a high ranking should be early release of this gear. 

It's only going to make that competition for ranking harder. 

The only issue to be wary of therefore is abuse of same. 

 

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Thank you for the update!

 

Well it would be nice to have a list of rolled back items then, otherwise its a gamble to see what items are bad and good

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Are you going to gate off MC items and Onyxia items that didnt drop before parch 1.5 too or not?

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1) Onyxia Head wasn't in the game at release, it was added later.

2) The first players to do Molten Core will have to do so without the benefit of the Rallying Cry of the Dragonslayer.

 

List of rolled back items is available here.

I haven't made a list of withheld items, it's a big batch of SQL queries, but it's basically everything that got added to boss drop and world drop tables after 1.9.  If the item ID starts with 22XXX, then it's a safe bet that it's not going to be in the boss tables at launch.

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I probably shouldn't respond again about the pvp upgrades but I will as my last point on the subject.

You are right that this decision will "effect" a few players in terms of their individual itemization, but it makes a much larger impact on the overall server balance. Those few players who decide to rank up would have a significant power increase over those that don't. If everything was even, that's not a problem - a player who invests more time should be stronger than one that doesn't. However, I think you are ignoring the larger point - We are already planning to release the updated pvp gear before it was updated originally. The only thing you're arguing is that you want it sooner than we say we'd like to release it.

Now, why is it that you want this gear earlier? It doesn't take a long logical step that the people who would be impacted by this "decision" (that is, to not release updated pvp sets 2 1/2 raid tiers before it was updated in the original game) are the most vocal against it. And why are you against it? Because these items are significantly stronger than other options that would otherwise be available. The updated sets, and especially the level 60 blue sets, make gearing decisions in MC and BWL much more trivial. The 2 piece bonuses on the level 60 blue sets are either BiS until AQ or close enough to BiS that it's worth saving DKP or 'loot council decisions' on other items.

A good example is casters, mages and warlocks. Their level 60 blue pvp sets 2 piece bonus for head / shoulders (Rank 10, which you can achieve in <2 months with strong pvp grinding or casually in ~3 months) are only beaten by Mish'undare + Blackwing Cabal pieces by 11 spell damage. At first you'd say "See! It's just as good as BWL gear!" but that's not really the full story. What ends up happening is that mages and warlocks who are rank 10 or working their way to rank 10 just ignore Blackwing Cabal, an item that was originally and would otherwise be the best item you could get for that slot. It allows BiS pieces to be acquired with comparatively little effort and competition and increases the overall power of the server's player base significantly. 

I do understand the desire for players to be able to be as strong as they can and the fact that many of you have played on previous servers where having these updated sets was assumed. However, your frame of reference is off-balance due to your previous experiences. If you had never had access to these items until they were originally released and we told you we were releasing them in AQ, you'd be joyously celebrating! Instead, you are complaining because your expectations have been set on the other side of the debate. 

As a neutral in this regard (I personally do not raid nor do I PvP and have instead focused my time by working on previous server's development and now Crestfall), releasing the PvP sets only 1 raid tier early fits into the larger Crestfall philosophy of restoring difficulty to a game that has been trivialized on other private servers. 

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2 hours ago, Darkrasp said:

1) Onyxia Head wasn't in the game at release, it was added later.

2) The first players to do Molten Core will have to do so without the benefit of the Rallying Cry of the Dragonslayer.

Why would Onyxia head be affected @Darkrasp? I thought the only items that would be rollbacked or held back from being released would be the post patch 1.9 items.

Edit: I just reread the timeline that Darkrasp posted.

Edited by Cornholi
I'm dumb. :p
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5 hours ago, Rembrandt said:

I probably shouldn't respond again about the pvp upgrades but I will as my last point on the subject.

You are right that this decision will "effect" a few players in terms of their individual itemization, but it makes a much larger impact on the overall server balance. Those few players who decide to rank up would have a significant power increase over those that don't. If everything was even, that's not a problem - a player who invests more time should be stronger than one that doesn't. However, I think you are ignoring the larger point - We are already planning to release the updated pvp gear before it was updated originally. The only thing you're arguing is that you want it sooner than we say we'd like to release it.

Now, why is it that you want this gear earlier? It doesn't take a long logical step that the people who would be impacted by this "decision" (that is, to not release updated pvp sets 2 1/2 raid tiers before it was updated in the original game) are the most vocal against it. And why are you against it? Because these items are significantly stronger than other options that would otherwise be available. The updated sets, and especially the level 60 blue sets, make gearing decisions in MC and BWL much more trivial. The 2 piece bonuses on the level 60 blue sets are either BiS until AQ or close enough to BiS that it's worth saving DKP or 'loot council decisions' on other items.

A good example is casters, mages and warlocks. Their level 60 blue pvp sets 2 piece bonus for head / shoulders (Rank 10, which you can achieve in <2 months with strong pvp grinding or casually in ~3 months) are only beaten by Mish'undare + Blackwing Cabal pieces by 11 spell damage. At first you'd say "See! It's just as good as BWL gear!" but that's not really the full story. What ends up happening is that mages and warlocks who are rank 10 or working their way to rank 10 just ignore Blackwing Cabal, an item that was originally and would otherwise be the best item you could get for that slot. It allows BiS pieces to be acquired with comparatively little effort and competition and increases the overall power of the server's player base significantly. 

I do understand the desire for players to be able to be as strong as they can and the fact that many of you have played on previous servers where having these updated sets was assumed. However, your frame of reference is off-balance due to your previous experiences. If you had never had access to these items until they were originally released and we told you we were releasing them in AQ, you'd be joyously celebrating! Instead, you are complaining because your expectations have been set on the other side of the debate. 

As a neutral in this regard (I personally do not raid nor do I PvP and have instead focused my time by working on previous server's development and now Crestfall), releasing the PvP sets only 1 raid tier early fits into the larger Crestfall philosophy of restoring difficulty to a game that has been trivialized on other private servers. 

why shouldnt someone who is willing to dedicate the time in a particular avenue that is substantially harder than pve content not be rewarded with gear that is better? as someone who actually actively participated with PvP all throughout bwl patch, people with bwl tier gear are definitely able to stand their own against people in r12/13 gear in both PvP and PvE, you can look at literally any realmplayers of any middling and high tier guild to see this. pvp gear only really starts to noticeably pull ahead once youve gotten r14 and are able to utilize the weapons.

in your specific example the only people that will find themselves in a situation where they would benefit at all from not taking mishundare/cabal are an extremely small minority of people who operate under a zero-sum DKP system, or any DKP system where items have an assigned value. loot council guilds and straight dkp guilds will have people with 2 set being looted/bidding on those items as they are upgrades and there is no negative to not taking them. even under a zero sum dkp system, why wouldnt people who are willing to put extra time in to get better gear for the overall benefit of the raid not be rewarded with a DKP exemption for a few pieces of gear? makes sense to me. also, clearing BWL in 2016 (will be 2017 by the time this server is at BWL) is substantially easier than getting to rank 10 for beneficial 2 set pieces. i dont think you have any idea of the dedication it actually takes compared to pve raidlogging to get to rank 10 and above. by the time majority of people will even have access to rank 10 and beyond gear, ZG will already be out and that alone offers casual shitters gear that is better itemized than AQ and in some cases even Naxx gear. i personally think you are severely overhyping the benefit of the rank 10 2 set. keep in mind that this update in my idealized timeline comes out in ZG, which is a whole of 8 weeks after BWL. every single tryhard guild and middling guild will have BWL content on farm by them and any utilization of the 10 set to make progression content easier will be moot at that point. the team have already stated that content will be tuned up and then tuned down for tryhard and casual players after time, so i dont see how this presents any issue what so ever when it comes to balance. these casual players will always have access to massive catchup items from other content to help them progress through content that top tier and middling guilds did not need to utilize at all

the gear being updated in Naxx on retail is also a completely moot point here. other servers opted to release this updated gear sooner because it makes sense to do so and they recognize that having that gear come out in Naxx in 2016 is completely ridiculous. youre presuming a level of balance in vanilla that only existed in 2005 and hasnt existed since then. there are an numerous number of reasons why this is the case and why you cant attribute the same standards as back then onto now, the primary two being: A) blizzard has no idea what the fuck they were doing as far as itemization and balance goes for the entirety of vanilla, even Naxx has some terribly itemized gear and BiS gear is acquired from literally all raid content, even pre-raid bis in some cases, so any presumptions about what constitutes "proper item balance" in regards to when stuff was actually released in vanilla is fucking meaningless, and B) the player base, even the elite, had no fucking clue how to play the game or gear themselves properly. the sets were updated in naxx because less than 1% of the entire fucking player base was able to progress through AQ, let alone step foot into Naxx, so the updated pvp sets made sense to come at this time since majority of players had gear worse than this. 99% of players had either never stepped foot into raid content or were stuck on the obligatory MC/ZG farm and couldnt progress past Razorgore in BWL. these two things are so far from the truth nowadays that taking them into consideration when doing anything related to balancing the game is retarded. we can observe through blizzards patch updates that they didnt know what they were doing and the devs on this server are literally taking initiative to fix fuck ups and balance issues vanilla had, and Nost and other private servers prove that even mongoloid pugs can run through BWL/MC/ZG and get fat gear effortlessly, meaning that majority of people will have top tier gear for their respective patches, rather than a minority. if the updated sets came out at Naxx on this server, for example, literally no one other than a couple of rogues and warriors would ever bother ranking and the pvp scene would be dead as fuck, because people realize they can get better gear with less effort from braindead pve content. even if its released in AQ the pvp scene will be substantially more dead than it could be. thats why it makes sense to move the 12/13 sets back to ZG update.

i dont know what your relation to the dev staff is, but the fact that you claimed to have 0 demonstrable or notable practical experience actually playing the game PvE or PvP makes me hope that you are nothing more than a simple lua scripter. if you are involved in balance or patching in any way i beseech you and the devs to re-evaluate your position, because it is obvious to me and I am sure it is to many others here than you have absolutely 0 idea what youre talking about and are pushing ideas that will make this server less of a quality server than it could be

Edited by Mecher
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@Mecher: You sound like someone who's ready to get things done as fast as possible and jump to the next project. (Crestfall: done)

I can't see any coherent argument about accelerating the pvp content patches other than "because I want them to".

Isn't the tentative timeline given already pushing pvp itemization forward a lot relative to retail classic?

If you were interested in blizz-like you'd be arguing for pushing them back; instead you're given a gift horse and looking it in the teeth.

If I made the same argument from the PvE side asking for ZG to be moved ahead because "reasons" (eg. I prefer the smaller raids) would that make any sense whatsoever?

No.

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8 minutes ago, Roadblock said:

@Mecher: You sound like someone who's ready to get things done as fast as possible and jump to the next project. (Crestfall: done)

I can't see any coherent argument about accelerating the pvp content patches other than "because I want them to".

Isn't the tentative timeline given already pushing pvp itemization forward a lot relative to retail classic?

If you were interested in blizz-like you'd be arguing for pushing them back; instead you're given a gift horse and looking it in the teeth.

If I made the same argument from the PvE side asking for ZG to be moved ahead because "reasons" (eg. I prefer the smaller raids) would that make any sense whatsoever?

No.

perhaps if you had actually read my posts youd understand why it makes sense to move sets back, also what constitutes "blizzlike" back in 2005 doesnt constitute what is actually enjoyable and what makes sense given conditions in 2016

i want my pvp scene to not be fucking dead and for 3 months of hard work to have some level of payoff before being made completely obsolete by easy as fuck to get pve gear, simply because people dont understand that the level of knowledge and ability to clear pve content is DRASTICALLY different and easier to do now compared to how it was then. why balance shit to how it was in 2005 when it doesnt make sense to

how is this hard to understand

no one wants to play a 100% vanilla blizzlike server where everyone starts with 1.0 dogshit vanilla talents, tier sets dont even have defense or spell damage on them and the main way for a tank to gain aggro is to use fucking mortal strike. why do you think every single server starts on 1.12.1 as a base and then works back to what they consider an acceptable standard for progression

Edited by Mecher
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No I get it, you want your pvp scene to dominate pve in the first 3 months then be dead the next 3.

Why shouldn't someone who is willing to dedicate the time to the smaller raid format (ZG) that is harder than MC/Ony not get the rewards from it?

I mean they're not even that much more powerful.

I am not seriously suggesting that as an argument btw.

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