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mrmr

LF "Theorycraft Guide to Ganking"

Could any of you imba-rogue write such a guide?

 

Seriously, this is NOT a troll-thread.

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Just stealth in front of a popular quest giver, like Nesingwary , in places like Lakeshire Inn, or in quest areas where it's really hard to get back without a hearthstone, like the cavern with Corporal Keeshan in Redridge. Duh. The poor lowbies can't even detect your OP stealth. 1 button should do it, 2 in extreme cases.

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27 minutes ago, hussar said:

Just stealth in front of a popular quest giver, like Nesingwary , in places like Lakeshire Inn, or in quest areas where it's really hard to get back without a hearthstone, like the cavern with Corporal Keeshan in Redridge. Duh. The poor lowbies can't even detect your OP stealth. 1 button should do it, 2 in extreme cases.

 

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2 hours ago, hussar said:

Just stealth in front of a popular quest giver, like Nesingwary , in places like Lakeshire Inn, or in quest areas where it's really hard to get back without a hearthstone, like the cavern with Corporal Keeshan in Redridge. Duh. The poor lowbies can't even detect your OP stealth. 1 button should do it, 2 in extreme cases.

Does this means all the ganking-rogues are frigging-mindless?

Really noone EVER did a REAL theorycrafted gear/consumable/spec study about this subject??

 

For real...I like the idea to gank here&there, but I would do it ONLY with the RIGHT gearset, the PERFECT spec for it...and clearly, I would tryhard popping all kind of consumable to minmax my experience at it.

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Just watch Payo. He's an above average rogue who actually plays the class pretty good. 

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18 minutes ago, MadeByRockets said:

Just watch Payo. He's an above average rogue who actually plays the class pretty good. 

Alright, he may be a godly-ganking-rogue, but that doesn't answer my question about "theorycrafting" the ganker role....does it?

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4 minutes ago, mrmr said:

Alright, he may be a godly-ganking-rogue, but that doesn't answer my question about "theorycrafting" the ganker role....does it?

Maybe not the math part, but it gives you sort of a visual of what to do when ganking. @Soyoen would probably the best person to help out. 

 

Edited by MadeByRockets
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I suppose in the end it will all be about how much gold you wish to spend on consumables and gimmicks. Spec wise as we've seen in the Nostalrius thread discussions, everybody has their own favorite which suits their own playstyle the best. Gear wise tradeoff survivability vs burst damage, you'll haft to ask someone who often WPvPs.

 

Consumables (certain I've forgotten or left out a few)

Thistle Tea: Restore 100 energy. (I win button #1)

Renataki's Charm of Trickery: Restore 60 energy. (I win button #2)

Flask of the Titans: Increase health by 1200, 2 hours, persists through death. (I have to much gold button #1)

Any Protection Potions: Against whatever you're facing.

Tidal Charm: 3sec long range stun, shares DR with either Kindey or Cheap shot. Can't recall which. (I have to much time #1)

Arena Grand Master: Absorb 750-1250 dmg.

Living Action Potion: Break any stun/slow effect and become immune against them for 5 sec. Gives you the possibility to turn fights on rogues who got the opener on you.

Free Action Potion: Immunity to stun/slow etc effects for 30s or so. (I win button #3)

Gnomish Net-o-Matic Projector: Large Rope Net that malfunctions.

Large Rope Net: 10 sec root, decent range. (I have to much time #2)

Magic Dust: X sec sleep, broken by wotf.

The Big One: 5 sec aoe stun.

Goblin Rocket Helmet: X sec knock out.

Goblin Sapper Charge: Burst damage, ridicules OP during the leveling phase.

Arcane Bomb: Silence+Drain Mana. (I have to much gold button #2)

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Profession and items:

Engineering provides very nice trinkets. For WPvP it's a must to get Engineering.

- Reflecting frost damage is the most useful one. You can walk over Hunter traps and trap them instead. On Nostalrius you could even reflect AoE effects such as Frost Nova. Reflecting a Nova makes fighting Mages a cakewalk.

- Reflect Shadow is second, but certainly not a close second. It's only useful against Warlock but as an UD Rogue you have enough tools to right Fear anyway. A class like Shaman gets better use out of it. Technically it can be used against Warriors but you will have to have amazing prediction in order to reflect their fear. Generally speaking this trinket is not worth a slot.

- Reflect fire. Since almost nobody will be running around using fire spells during MC, BWL and ZG you don't even have to think about it. It might be worth it once Mages begin to spec fire for AQ but even then, it's not worth it. Most Mages are going to stay Frost for the earlier content anyway. And the irony is that against Fire Mages the one spell you want to reflect is still Frost Nova.

- Net-o-Matic is a must. You can net somebody for the rest of his remaining life and it doesn't break on damage. Get it, no questions asked.

- The stun grenades are a must. Not because you require them, you don't, but they help a lot. And you don't want to go into equal fights only to find out your opponent is using every engineering trick in the book and you're not, that's a recipe for a bad time.

- Flasks, Arane Bombs or anything expensive is just a waste. Unless you're swimming and I mean swimming in gold and really don't know what to do with it, then I would consider it. Flasks are stupid for another reason, you don't want to gank on a timer. If prices are going to be anything like Nostalrius then Arcane Bomb is never going to see the light of day. It takes too much effort to farm the mats yourself for it to be worth it. You want other people doing most of the work here.

 

Races:

- Human: garbage. Perception cooldown is way too long and even if you use it, it will provide unreliable results. Although for PvE they are amazing. Expect to see Human Rogues running around just for that reason.

- Night Elf: They get okay bonusses here and there, but generally speaking it doesn't add up to being something good. If you get ganked a lot they are pretty good, because you're going to make it back to your corpse 20% faster, only to get ganked again.

- Gnome: Escape Artist is easily the best PvP racial for Alliance. It has a low cooldown and as a melee you want to be on the move all the time. It even counters Net-o-Matic, something every decent PvP'r will be using.

- Alliance in general get to fight against Shamans and trust me, they are easier to kill and much easier to deal with in general. Plus you can recieve BoF from Paladins. This is a huge plus. The only reason to even consider Alliance is to have Paladins on your side, and not against you.

- Orc: pretty amazing. The stun reduction helps out to clutch those moments. Every time you trade a stun you're winning because you get released earlier. This Racial doesn't shine like other actives but you do notice its effect. The zerking buff is usually suicide, the minus to healing lasts too long and can gets you killed more often then not. As soon as something unexpected happens in the next 30 seconds you're most likely dead.

- Forsaken: This is where it's at. WoTF trumps every other racial so hard it isn't even funny. Add cannibalize to it as a bonus. If you go horde and you're into PvP you really, really want to have a fear breaker.

- Troll: if you want to troll people pick this one. Nothing is more humiliating than getting yourself killed by a Troll.

- Horde in general have to deal with Paladins. Plate wearing classes that can heal themselves are not fun. This one can be immortal for 12 seconds, has a spell to restore back to 100% health instantly and on top of it and they can give their allies immunity to physical attacks. They can also make their allies immune to any slowing or rooting effects. On the plus side you get to have Windfury, if you have a Shaman in your party and he keeps the totem up and you keep yourself in range of it... very unlikely to happen in BG PvP, let alone WPvP. So is it really a plus? Not really, it's going to be another headache for you to deal with. If you have a Shaman friend then you can go to town on any cloth user as they will purge every buff away.

- Oh, I almost forgot about Dwarf Shadow Priests. They are a problem for Horde Rogues as they can absolutely destroy you 1 on 1. Their ability to instantly negate all poison effects, become immune to them and gain extra armor is a pain to deal with.

Generally speaking the Rogue racials for Horde are better, but Alliance has acces to the better class. In group PvP Alliance wins it out. Windfury and Purge aren't nearly as good as immunity to physical attacks and immunity to movement effects.

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On 9/19/2016 at 1:32 PM, RipTonight said:

- Reflect Shadow is second, but certainly not a close second. It's only useful against Warlock but as an UD Rogue you have enough tools to right Fear anyway. A class like Shaman gets better use out of it. Technically it can be used against Warriors but you will have to have amazing prediction in order to reflect their fear. Generally speaking this trinket is not worth a slot.

Not worth a slot... what? This trinket completely rapes warlocks and shadow priests, you just need to switch it in and out depending on the situation.

Really you should be doing this with any activated trinket in pvp, and pve too if you want to maximise dps. You only have to wait 30 seconds after you equip a trinket (or other item, relevant for goblin rocket helm for example) for it to become usable, so if you have a bunch of trinkets and you're in a bg or something, every time you go out of combat you can equip two new trinkets. Or in pve you can use two activated trinkets off the bat, then vanish and equip two "stat trinkets" like drake fang for the rest of the fight. Good switch out trinkets include pvp trinket, renetaki's, reflectors, net, tidal charm, dps trinkets (most share a cooldown though I believe), others I'm probably forgetting, and stat trinkets ofc if everything useful is on cooldown. Also as a rogue you're going out of combat all the time - vanishing or gouging/running away and restealthing, so you can abuse trinkets even more than other classes.

I used the addon "Trinket Menu" on Nost for this since it makes things a million times easier. What it does is show all your trinkets you have on you like an actionbar, and simply lets you left click to equip a trinket in the first slot, and right click for the bottom slot, and from there you set up a keybinding for each slot and you're set. It even lets you click to equip a trinket while still in combat, then automatically equips it for you as soon as you leave combat. Otherwise without this addon doing what I described above would be a massive pain in the ass and require setting up a ton of macros or something, or just be impossible most likely. I'd even use trinkets that I'd normally never touch because they're too situational, luffa to remove bleeds, essence of eranikus to leave a 45 sec dot on rogues to knock them out of stealth, gnomish battle chicken which can detect and attack rogues/druids in stealth, that one trinket that summons three dudes which attack and can slow down casters, stuff like that. Imo everyone should have this addon, can't recommend it enough.

Edit: Speaking of things of things that everyone should have: anti-venom. Removes any poison, and has a 1 min cooldown that also puts bandages on cooldown. Use it remove hunter's sting and restealth, remove crippling poison, or use it in pve. Plus you can spam it when there's no poisons to dispel and have glowing green hands whenever you want. Also another item that's super useful in pvp that I'd rarely see used: catseye ultra goggles. Raises your stealth detection +18, which is equal to 6/5 points in master of deception (gives you +15 to stealth with 5 points), so you can get the opener on other rogues all day. Discombobulator ray is a 1 min cooldown consumable that turns the opponent into a leper gnome and gives them -20% movement speed, but in vanilla it would also dismount enemies (this was patched in tbc). Really there's tons of items and tricks like this you can use if you want to tryhard in vanilla wow, grenades and engineering trinkets are just the surface. 

 

Edited by spookyskeleton
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7 hours ago, spookyskeleton said:

Not worth a slot... what? This trinket completely rapes warlocks and shadow priests, you just need to switch it in and out depending on the situation.

Really you should be doing this with any activated trinket in pvp, and pve too if you want to maximise dps. You only have to wait 30 seconds after you equip a trinket (or other item, relevant for goblin rocket helm for example) for it to become usable, so if you have a bunch of trinkets and you're in a bg or something, every time you go out of combat you can equip two new trinkets. Or in pve you can use two activated trinkets off the bat, then vanish and equip two "stat trinkets" like drake fang for the rest of the fight. Good switch out trinkets include pvp trinket, renetaki's, reflectors, net, tidal charm, dps trinkets (most share a cooldown though I believe), others I'm probably forgetting, and stat trinkets ofc if everything useful is on cooldown. Also as a rogue you're going out of combat all the time - vanishing or gouging/running away and restealthing, so you can abuse trinkets even more than other classes.

 

I too used the Trinket Menu on Nost. It is indeed a must have. And yes, I switched trinkets depending on the situation. Since I was specifically talking about WPvP and not battlegrounds or duels I won't go into those.

I forgot for a second that this was the Rogue specific class forum, my bad. I was considering the perspective of a Shaman and it's a different world. You must know that for Shamans you can't just switch the trinket in and out depending on the situation as easily because:

1: It can't be done in combat. If you get jumped you're too late.

2: Once you equip the trinket it you have to wait 30 seconds before you can even use it.

 

On Nostalrius there weren't many Warlocks and Shadow Priests running around, especially compared to the many Mages (they were extremely dominant on Nostalrius), Rogues and Warriors. Since the trinket is useless against all other classes you would be an idiot to have it pre-equiped in WPvP.

For Shamans the trinket doesn't rape Warlocks or Shadow Priests. The biggest spell you can reflect is Fear. Since Shamans have no CC they can easily use whatever means necessary to dispell the effect (like a Trinket or Felhunter) and now you traded a Trinket slot or even worse, for a 6 second CD spell. In both cases the trades aren't in the Shaman's favor. There's also another problem with reflecting fear. Shamans deal high burst damage and are sure to break the effect almost instantly every time. Unlike Warlocks and Shadow Priests who can take their time dotting their target and channeling spells while the effect is still active, Shamans could even break it with Flame Shock pretty easily.

I haven't played Rogue much. It's probably a lot better for them considering both Warlocks and Spriests have a (much) smaller time window to strike back.

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12 hours ago, RipTonight said:

I too used the Trinket Menu on Nost. It is indeed a must have. And yes, I switched trinkets depending on the situation. Since I was specifically talking about WPvP and not battlegrounds or duels I won't go into those.

I forgot for a second that this was the Rogue specific class forum, my bad. I was considering the perspective of a Shaman and it's a different world. You must know that for Shamans you can't just switch the trinket in and out depending on the situation as easily because:

1: It can't be done in combat. If you get jumped you're too late.

2: Once you equip the trinket it you have to wait 30 seconds before you can even use it.

 

On Nostalrius there weren't many Warlocks and Shadow Priests running around, especially compared to the many Mages (they were extremely dominant on Nostalrius), Rogues and Warriors. Since the trinket is useless against all other classes you would be an idiot to have it pre-equiped in WPvP.

For Shamans the trinket doesn't rape Warlocks or Shadow Priests. The biggest spell you can reflect is Fear. Since Shamans have no CC they can easily use whatever means necessary to dispell the effect (like a Trinket or Felhunter) and now you traded a Trinket slot or even worse, for a 6 second CD spell. In both cases the trades aren't in the Shaman's favor. There's also another problem with reflecting fear. Shamans deal high burst damage and are sure to break the effect almost instantly every time. Unlike Warlocks and Shadow Priests who can take their time dotting their target and channeling spells while the effect is still active, Shamans could even break it with Flame Shock pretty easily.

I haven't played Rogue much. It's probably a lot better for them considering both Warlocks and Spriests have a (much) smaller time window to strike back.

You're right it's definitely more situational than on a rogue, since you can't just sneak up, or vanish/blind/whatever to get out of combat if you're jumped. Though if you see the lock approaching or you initiate the fight, it's still pretty damn good even for shamans. Don't think of it as a one time reflect fear trinket, vs locks at least I like to think of it as a free blessing of freedom, and possibly a shadowbolt reflected back at them if you time it right. During that 6 seconds you're immune to all their cc if they don't have engineering themselves. So even if fear breaks who cares, just burst them down. Rogue or shaman can do a lot of damage in 6 seconds.

Edited by spookyskeleton
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