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Elicas

Non Blizzlike features planned?

506 posts in this topic

As per the title I guess. Some of the most popular features of other, big booming servers are some non blizz like features, such as Vanilla Kronos and it's 5g gold cap on respecs. Do you have anything similar planned for here, or have you even started discussing this sort of thing? They changed respec costs to promote more active PvP and to help classes like Mages, who require 100g per week in respecs (blizzlike prices) for raiding after AQ40 is released until they drop MC/BWL from their weekly clear list.

I'm especially thinking not just the respec costs, but also things like giving both Seal of Blood/Seal of Vengeance to each faction in TBC. This is especially pertinent with the recent PlayTBC release and the explosion of population on Vengeance. Both of PTBC's PvP servers had a near 80-20 population split in favour of Horde, spam searching on Vengeance is showing close to 200 more paladins Horde side than Alliance. It's one of the few cases where I argue in favour of non blizzlike features. For better or worse, Paladin is one of wows most popular classes, and if you want to play Ret anywhere near competently in TBC you must roll BElf.

We argued this back and forth with the PlayTBC devs before release, and they repeatedly and specifically stated it would not be an issue. As soon as they launched, faction balance was immediately broken, multiple forum threads popped up about respec costs (doubly important in TBC with Arena), and now Vengeance is suffering from similar issues.

While I know we'll have ~18 months of Vanilla before we get to TBC, it's worth planning long term for these sort of things.

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Good topic. Vanilla is badly flawed in so many ways even at 1.12. But the issue is that when you start to tinker with the game to combat known issues when do you stop? 

 

I agree that respec costs are horrendous but this is a known factor. It's known that certain classes are gimped for raids unless you play x spec, so maybe we should tinker with that too. 

Then suddenly you're not playing vanilla wow anymore. And yes, I know you're advocating small specific changes but is it not the case that we should embrace all flaws in life, including our own? 

Good discussion topic though let's see what the devs say... 

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Feel free to setup a list of non-blizzlike modifications which should be done in your point of view.

We aim to be very blizzlike, but we won't create "bugs" on purpose which existed in times of vanilla.

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For me, the two I mentioned are the only main changes I'd advocate for.

Respec costs severely gimp peoples ability to respec for PvP, and severely wounds certain classes like Warriors and Mages in PvE, up until the release of the TBC dailies. A lowered respec cost will promote more people switching spec to tank 5mans for example, which shortens the frustration of people looking for group, will result in shorter BG and Arena queues for PvPers, and generally reduce the frustration for some raid specs in Vanilla/TBC. I thought Kronos 5g was a little low, but I'd support something like 10g in vanilla, rising to 25g in TBC. It'll help siphon money out of the economy, without making it gruelingly difficult. Mages for example must spec Frost for MC and BWL since most bosses are fire immune. Frost is particularly weak in AQ though, so they have to either;

  1. Stay Fire in MC & BWL and afk through farm nights.
  2. Stay Frost in AQ40, AQ20, ZG and Naxx, significantly impacting the raids dps.
  3. Farm an additional 100g per week minimum, on top of other normal raiding costs, to fulfill their basic function.

That's just one class. Every healer has this same issue any time they want to go and grind, lack of tanks for 5 mans is impacted by the amount of Druids/Warriors in a raid useful spec who could respec if it wouldn't impact their consumables gold, etc.

As for Paladins, I've been desperately searching for the Blizzard quote from WotLK specifically calling out SoB/SoV as a mistake. Can't find the bloody thing anywhere, I've got a feeling it was on their old forums. The general gist of it is; Paladin is one of the most popular classes in the entire game. In TBC specifically, Horde paladins got the only seal worth using for DPS (Seal of Blood) and Alliance paladins got the best seal for tanking (Seal of Vengeance). This tends to mean PvPers who want to play ret, and everyone who wants to main ret in PvE, went Horde. Conversely, everyone who wanted to main a paladin tank went Alliance. There was obviously some crossover, and some who broke the general rule.

I've been checking out as many 2.0.X based guides and cached discussion threads as possible. There is still an excellent one from Elitist Jerks here for example. It shows Seal of Command for Alliance paladins has a ~5% variance between dps between rank 1 and rank 6 based off of mana consumption, and that is their only real choice of dps seal. We must bare in mind, ret dps is limited by mana pool, so down ranking SoC is almost mandatory until you are in T6 gear. There is roughly a 5% difference between max rank SoC and max rank SoB, which doesn't sound like a lot on paper. However, haste does not affect SoC ppm rates, nor does SoC proc from additional attacks granted from WF totem (mandatory for a properly set up melee raid group) whereas SoB does. This leads to around ~12%-15% advantage to Horde paladins doing dps as ret, just by choosing a race.

On private servers in TBC, this tends to result in an overwhelming Horde faction imbalance, partially because of the better Horde racials, but also because Horde paladins seem to outnumber Alliance paladins by a factor of around 4:1 on every server I've ever been on to check. Release on PlayTBC had it close to a 14:1 imbalance between Horde>Alliance pallies.

As well as the ret spec situation, SoV for prots also hurts Horde, as they tend to have fewer prot paladins, resulting in not just more frustrated dps looking for groups, but less tanks in the pool generally.

The easy fix is to give both factions both seals. Horde can tank, Alliance can dps, and people can choose whichever faction they want based on faction not based on mandatory choice just to be effective.

Edited by Elicas
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I agree with a Talent Respec costs cap but 5-10g seems a bit low to me. I think that 50G would be a good option which is not very high and not very low. Remember that we're still talking about Vanilla WoW which doesn't provide daily quests so the inflaction will be very low. I sincerly doesn't care too much to TBC right now since the Vanilla Server is not started yet. 

Also, I hope that Non-Blizzlike features will be something really useless (for example a special Tabard for who donate without any stat) or something which can really improve the gameplay/experience (for example Horde/Alliance parties at launch in order to help people to do the first dungeons if the population is low for one of the faction), I don't want to see people paying for a epic mount, for exp bonuses etc.

I'd also like to be able to create characters for both faction with a single account, it's something that can be useful.

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50g is the blizzard respec cap iirc. It's particularly high for most classes, you're talking ~20g an hour grinding for most dps classes, so that's 4-5 hours grinding per respec for a class good at grinding. You're talking ~10 hours a week grinding just for pvp respecs with 50g respec caps. This is what people are complaining about on PlayTBC etc.

Creating a char for both factions on a single account is standard for PvE servers.

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4 hours ago, Elicas said:

 

Respec costs severely gimp peoples ability to respec for PvP, and severely wounds certain classes like Warriors and Mages in PvE, up until the release of the TBC dailies. A lowered respec cost will promote more people switching spec to tank 5mans for example, which shortens the frustration of people looking for group, will result in shorter BG and Arena queues for PvPers, and generally reduce the frustration for some raid specs in Vanilla/TBC. I thought Kronos 5g was a little low, but I'd support something like 10g in vanilla, rising to 25g in TBC. It'll help siphon money out of the economy, without making it gruelingly difficult. Mages for example must spec Frost for MC and BWL since most bosses are fire immune. Frost is particularly weak in AQ though, so they have to either;

  1. Stay Fire in MC & BWL and afk through farm nights.
  2. Stay Frost in AQ40, AQ20, ZG and Naxx, significantly impacting the raids dps.
  3. Farm an additional 100g per week minimum, on top of other normal raiding costs, to fulfill their basic function.

That's just one class. Every healer has this same issue any time they want to go and grind, lack of tanks for 5 mans is impacted by the amount of Druids/Warriors in a raid useful spec who could respec if it wouldn't impact their consumables gold, etc.

 

I'd say no to this change simply because that is a part of what made "Vanilla". Also people not having to spend so much gold on respecs can have many different kinds of consequences when it comes to server economy. It also affects people in a way that they do not create alts, which again affects server economy (profession powerleveling is a huge gold sink if you do it AH way).

Also when a guild is progressing on AQ and Naxx, they most probably don't have the mages on their mains when they go for raids like MC. BWL might be a bit hard with an "alt" raid but it is still doable.

Back in retail (talking about vanilla) I managed just fine with 40g respec costs if I needed to do that, and I raided as resto and PvP'd as feral, spending minimal time farming gold.

Doing a change like this is not advisable in my opinion because the situation is the same for everyone when we think about respecs. 

Your TBC example is different, but I will not take any stance on that as I don't really know much about TBC paladins.

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54 minutes ago, Elicas said:

50g is the blizzard respec cap iirc. It's particularly high for most classes, you're talking ~20g an hour grinding for most dps classes, so that's 4-5 hours grinding per respec for a class good at grinding. You're talking ~10 hours a week grinding just for pvp respecs with 50g respec caps. This is what people are complaining about on PlayTBC etc.

Creating a char for both factions on a single account is standard for PvE servers.

I remember that the cap was 100G, that's why I said 50G. If the standard cap was 50G I would say 25G ofc.

Obviously when I said "character from both faction using a single account" I suppose on PvP realm. Sincerly I don't want to play on a PVE server, being ganked is a part of experience, you have to know how to run and how to hide which is not a bad thing,

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19 hours ago, Crogge said:

Feel free to setup a list of non-blizzlike modifications which should be done in your point of view.

We aim to be very blizzlike, but we won't create "bugs" on purpose which existed in times of vanilla.

also, @Outstanding respec costs are fine, I think that gold should stay valuable as the server gets older anyway, and thats one of the ways that it can stay valuable, as well as some of the custom changes below. In vanilla WoW's blizzlike state, the amount of gold that is spent at NPCs isn't enough compared to the amount of gold that players obtain; also note that buying something at the auction house transfers almost all of the gold spent to another player character, meaning that almost all of it doesn't leave the hands of players. I think that vanilla WoW could use some more gold dumps to keep the economy in good shape after the first 3-6 months or so when epic mount training isn't a good enough gold dump anymore, as so many players have it by then.

edit: i take back what I said about respecs, since tanks and healers have a hard time getting gold even in current WoW; they can have the cap lowered while more gold dumps are put elsewhere

the following is some of the contents of a notepad file on my desktop called how to fix vanilla WoW.txt

some of these might require client changes; those can be ignored, as can the optional ones

DUNGEONS/RAIDS:
whip lashers no longer drop loot, this is so they don't get AoE farmed by mages for easily-obtained gold

all maraudon-specific rare quality items that are BoP(edit: except heart of noxxion) are classified as unique items edit: to clarify, this is so hunters can't farm maraudon by themselves for easily-obtained gold

all of the zul'farrak-specific rare quality items that are BoP are classified as unique items edit: to clarify, this is so ZF can't get farmed for easily-obtained gold by a 60 guy or two

king gordok will always pull with the observer; no exceptions(is this even a change from vanilla?)

if necessary, king gordok will be given a custom change that prevents hunters from soloing him and the observer

all raids and dungeons are otherwise in pre-nerf condition, where things other than loot are concerned; also, loot is in the pre-1.4 version for some time, like on nost

(OPTIONAL)onyxia and every boss in MC and in BWL and naxxaramas(except pathcwerk) and ZG and maybe also AQ20 and some of AQ40 gain an additional custom mechanic that makes them harder




WORLD:
all mining and herbalism nodes, even those inside of dungeons, are dynamic and randomized, so that no two nodes have the exact same spawn location(probably), especially as far as a player would be concerned, but each type of node will still only spawn in certain parts of certain zones; furthermore, black lotuses will no longer spawn on predetermined herbalism nodes, but will instead randomly be found on herbalism nodes of a high enough level at 10% chance per node that is capable of having one

an NPC in un'goro crater at marshall's refuge is added, with the title of Devilsaur Hunter; he sells devilsaur leather in an unlimited supply for 4 gold per leather and is a level 63 elite with a 3000% run speed, a melee attack with a .5 attack speed that hits for ~100000 physical damage and a ranged attack with .5 attack speed that hits for ~100000 physical damage, and he will leash 100 yards from his spawn point and will kill any player within that range that attacks another player, but is otherwise friendly(green name); these changes will not only(maybe) make devilsaurs roam un'goro again, but it will prevent a devilsaur mafia(like the multi-faction one from nost pvp) from existing as well

(OPTIONAL) finish making all of the unfinished quest chains, such as the one involving chained essence of eukrainus




ECONOMY(gold dumps):
the +15 fire resistance to cloak enchant and +15 nature resistance to cloak enchant and all AQ enchants additionally require two of a reagent from enchanting supplies vendors that costs 20g each; this reagent(not BoP) may only be found at enchanting supplies vendors

+15 agility to 1h, +25 agility to 2h, +30 spellpower to weapon, +55 healing to weapon, +15 strength to weapon, and crusader all additionally require one of that reagent that costs 20g at the enchanting supplies vendors

all flasks require an additional reagent that costs 40g(and isn't BoP) and its only found at alchemy supplies vendors

edit: the respec cost cap is capped out at 20g, so tanks and healers can get gold too

all ZG enchants additionally cost 50g, including the shoulder enchants; this and the above changes should make gold be more valuable, especially in the long run

if these changes are found to be too insignificant or extreme the gold costs of some or all of them will be raised or lowered accordingly




CRAFTING/REAGENTS(optional, I'd just like for some reagents to be more useful, but its not really needed):
soul pouch now additionally requires one essence of undeath to be crafted, felcloth bag additionally requires 4, and core felcloth bag additionally requires 10, and runed stygian belt additionally require 1 essence of undeath to be crafted, and runed stygian pants and boots require additionally 2 essence of undeath to be crafted

enchant cloak +15 nature resistance additionally requires 2 essence of earth and now requires half as much living essence as it did before

gift of arthas now additionally requires 1 ichor of undeath to be crafted, and ultra-flash shadow reflector and +20 shadow damage to gloves now additionally require as many ichors of undeath as essences of undeath to be crafted

all naxxaramas frost resistance gear additionally requires 2 globes of water to be crafted

the stormshroud armor set now additionally requires as many gloves of water and breaths of air to be crafted as they do essences of water and essences of air

+4 mp5 to bracers and +20 frost damage to gloves and hyper-radiant flame reflector now additionally require as many globes of water as they do essences of water to be crafted

+15 agil to 1h weapon, +25 agil to 2h weapon, and +7 agil to gloves now additionally require as many breaths of wind as they do essences of air

+15 FR to cloak and +20 fire damage to gloves now additionally requires 4 hearts of fire to be crafted, and all flarecore(cloth FR) gear requires as many hearts of fire as essences of fire to be crafted

titanic leggings, stronghold gauntlets, and +15 str to 1h now additionally require as many cores of earth as essences of earth to be crafted

gyrofreeze ice reflector now requires as many hearts of fire as essences of fire to be crafted

truesilver transformers now require an additional elemental air to be crafted

greater nature protection potion no longer requires an elemental earth to be crafted, but an elemental air instead

frost oil now additionally requires two elemental water to be crafted

Edited by Aquane
I realized tanks and healers have a hard time getting gold, so I added in the respec cost cap being lowered
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50 minutes ago, Aquane said:

also, @Outstanding respec costs are fine, I think that gold should stay valuable as the server gets older anyway, and thats one of the ways that it can stay valuable, as well as some of the custom changes below. In vanilla WoW's blizzlike state, the amount of gold that is spent at NPCs isn't enough compared to the amount of gold that players obtain; also note that buying something at the auction house transfers almost all of the gold spent to another player character, meaning that almost all of it doesn't leave the hands of players. I think that vanilla WoW could use some more gold dumps to keep the economy in good shape after the first 3-6 months or so when epic mount training isn't a good enough gold dump anymore, as so many players have it by then.

the following is some of the contents of a notepad file on my desktop called how to fix vanilla WoW.txt

some of these might require client changes; those can be ignored, as can the optional ones

DUNGEONS/RAIDS:
whip lashers no longer drop loot

all maraudon-specific rare quality items that are BoP are classified as unique

all of the zul'farrak specific rare-quality items that are BoP are classified as unique items

king gordok will always pull with the observer; no exceptions(is this even a change from vanilla?)

if necessary, king gordok will be given a custom change that prevents hunters from soloing him and the observer

all raids and dungeons are otherwise in pre-nerf condition

(OPTIONAL)onyxia and every boss in MC and in BWL and naxxaramas and ZG and maybe also AQ20 and some of AQ40 additionally gain an additional custom mechanic that makes them harder, except patchwerk




WORLD:
all mining and herbalism nodes, even those inside of dungeons, are dynamic and randomized, so that no two nodes have the exact same spawn location(probably), especially as far as a player would be concerned, but each type of node will still only spawn in certain parts of certain zones; furthermore, black lotuses will no longer spawn on predetermined herbalism nodes, but will instead randomly be found on herbalism nodes of a high enough level at 10% chance per node that is capable of having one

an NPC in un'goro crater at marshall's refuge is added, with the title of Devilsaur Hunter; he sells devilsaur leather in an unlimited supply for 4 gold per leather and is a level 63 elite with a melee attack that hits for over 10000 physical damage and a ranged attack that hits for over 10000 physical damage, and he will kill any player within his aggro range that attacks another player, but is otherwise friendly(green name); these changes will not only(maybe) make devilsaurs roam un'goro again, but it will prevent a devilsaur mafia(like the multi-faction one from nost pvp) from existing as well

(OPTIONAL) finish making all of the unfinished quest chains, such as the one involving chained essence of eukrainus




ECONOMY(gold dumps):
the 15 fire resistance to cloak enchant and 15 nature resistance to cloak enchant and all AQ enchants additionally require two of a reagent from enchanting supplies vendors that costs 20g each; this reagent(not BoP) may only be found at enchanting supplies vendors

+15 agility to 1h, +25 agility to 2h, +30 spellpower to weapon, +55 healing to weapon, +15 strength to weapon, and crusader all additionally require one of that reagent that costs 20g at the enchanting supplies vendor

all flasks require an additional reagent that costs 40g(and isn't BoP) and its only found at alchemy supplies vendors

all ZG enchants additionally cost 50g, including the shoulder enchants; this and the above changes should make gold be more valuable, especially in the long run

if these changes are found to be too insignificant or extreme the gold costs of some or all of them will be raised or lowered significantly




CRAFTING/REAGENTS(optional):
soul pouch now additionally requires one essence of undeath to be crafted, felcloth bag additionally requires 4, and core felcloth bag additionally requires 10, and runed stygian belt additionally require 1 essence of undeath to be crafted, and runed stygian pants and boots require additionally 2 essence of undeath to be crafted

enchant cloak +15 nature resistance additionally requires 2 essence of earth and now requires half as much living essence as it did before

gift of arthas now additionally requires 1 ichor of undeath to be crafted, and ultra-flash shadow reflector and +20 shadow damage to gloves now additionally require as many ichors of undeath as essences of undeath to be crafted

all naxxaramas frost resistance gear additionally requires 2 globes of water to be crafted

the stormshroud armor set now additionally requires as many gloves of water and breaths of air to be crafted as they do essences of water and essences of air

+4 mp5 to bracers and +20 frost damage to gloves and hyper-radiant flame reflector now additionally require as many globes of water as they do essences of water to be crafted

+15 agil to 1h weapon, +25 agil to 2h weapon, and +7 agil to gloves now additionally require as many breaths of wind as they do essences of air

+15 FR to cloak and +20 fire damage to gloves now additionally requires 4 hearts of fire to be crafted, and all flarecore(cloth FR) gear requires as many hearts of fire as essences of fire to be crafted

titanic leggings, stronghold gauntlets, and +15 str to 1h now additionally require as many cores of earth as essences of earth to be crafted

gyrofreeze ice reflector now requires as many hearts of fire as essences of fire to be crafted

truesilver transformers now require an additional elemental air to be crafted

greater nature protection potion no longer requires an elemental earth to be crafted, but an elemental air instead

frost oil now additionally requires two elemental water to be crafted

Rly?  xD I'm just curious where you get that info about economy. Because that's just bs you spend far less gold in other expansions everything got cheaper after wotlk basically absolutely no money spent on respecs coz of duals (they are 1k which is like 100g on vanilla). Daily q become much more accessible from tbc on. So there is even more gold avaible for players. So this problem will always be there on servers which just spend too much time on last content of the expansion which shouldn't be the case here.And reducing respec cost is just good idea to encourage people to tank and heal 5 mans and raids( I think it could be reduced to 25g). Or you can be waiting for tank/heal for ages but be happy that we are not increasing inflation . 

Edited by Ramsay
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@Aquane Yes, well your post just emphasises to me why tinkering around with known issues is like pulling a thread in a tapestry, everything unravels pretty quickly.

I'm very keen on WoW economics and there are various parameters where you can see how well or badly an economy was doing. Nost PvE was a very small economy with little gold buying as evidenced by some core products. The economy on Kronos is far better developed down to age and I would suspect, a lot more gold selling. Personally I have always found the economic challenge in Vanilla to be one of its best merits.   

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31 minutes ago, Ramsay said:

Nevermind. :D

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Gold, as gear, must be hard to obtain and I think that Vanilla did those two things right.

I agree with the reduction of talents respec cost cap cause I think that for certain class respect is not a choice (aka mage) so seems fair to me balance this option. Everything else, like modding items, spells cost etc, can be ignored IMHO.

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This is such a complicated subject and one that is very divided among players.  It is also the reason people are interested to see what blizzard would do with a vanilla/progression server.  What balances and qol ides should be implemented.  Vanilla (and every expansion) had it obvious flaws.  IMO most of these are issues that can be tweaked further down the road.  Have discussions and such and see what other servers and blizzard are doing. 

I dont usually feel bad for mages and their respec costs.  They can farm mobs so easily and rake in the funds that way.  I've never played a pally so I have no response to the seals issue in TBC.  @Aquane  if we were making WoW today, then these ideas are most likely solid.  As a 12 year old game that some old nuts want to play I feel changing this much would hinder rather than improve.  If Blizzard did a legacy server, I forsee issues like what you have typed to be implemented.  I strongly doubt they would post a game w/o any qol changes.

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1 hour ago, Outstanding said:

@Aquane Yes, well your post just emphasises to me why tinkering around with known issues is like pulling a thread in a tapestry, everything unravels pretty quickly.

I'm very keen on WoW economics and there are various parameters where you can see how well or badly an economy was doing. Nost PvE was a very small economy with little gold buying as evidenced by some core products. The economy on Kronos is far better developed down to age and I would suspect, a lot more gold selling. Personally I have always found the economic challenge in Vanilla to be one of its best merits.   

I feel compelled to bring up that I had a 60 warrior on nost pve, I won't mention who

but basically he already had the gear he wanted from 5/10 mans, his epic mount, and got all the enchants he wanted at the moment, and had bought all of his skills and even got all the crafted gear he wanted as well as just about every recipe for his profession he'd find at the auction house, and didn't want to make an alt, and I didn't like using consumables other than healing potions(which he looted plenty of outside of DM trib) and a greater fire prots when necessary in raids

for some months he pretty much just stopped having a use for gold and eventually just gave away maybe 500g(which he got from rep farming dungeons and raiding and farming for greens) in total to various players because what else was there to do with it? all there was to do with it was buy vanity items(which he didn't) and spend it on AH fees, mailbox fees, flight paths, and repair bills, and if he got a new piece of gear he might spend some money to get it enchanted, but he kept his high-lvl greens around and mailed em to his bank alt who could disenchant them so he'd have alot of his enchanting mats covered anyway, at least for a while, but even then just raidlogging might've provided him with enough gold to cover enchants for new items that he gets from raids

 

pretty much the only thing he had to spend money on that he wasn't spending money on was consumables, and when you spend money on consumables almost all of that money spent lands in the hands of another player, and in his current condition just raidlogging would provide him with all the gold he'd ever need from that point on

 

now what happens when a ton of players are in that situation, except that they buy and farm for consumables? well actually I think the alchemists would just be really really really really rich eventually and that, if players get enough or more than enough gold from farming for consumables to buy alchemist consumables, then alchemist consumables might go up in price at the AH; I'm not quite sure how to prevent that without making them obsolete

I think that theres just too much money flowing into the economy(players) and not enough flowing out of it(mostly to NPCs, from players)

I'll mention here that the gold dumps that I suggested for vanilla WoW have the long-term in mind, not the first few months when most of the server's active players who didn't join late are still getting their epic mounts

Edited by Aquane
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@Aquane  It is a legit concern and one of the top issues in mmos.  What I would do in that situation is send some money to a guild bank alt.  There are mages who need 100G respecs in your neighborhood :)

In my nost guild their were ppl (mostly mages) who grinded the last 3 levels to 60.  They had so much gold, bought a epic mount at ding and was still wealthy.  Not a situation I see myself at as a priest.

Edited by Masterfyoog
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1 minute ago, Aquane said:

I feel compelled to bring up that I had a 60 warrior on nost pve, I won't mention who

but basically he already had the gear he wanted from 5/10 mans, his epic mount, and got all the enchants he wanted at the moment, and had bought all of his skills and even got all the crafted gear he wanted as well as just about every recipe for his profession he'd find at the auction house, and didn't want to make an alt, and I didn't like using consumables other than healing potions(which he looted plenty of outside of DM trib) and a greater fire prots when nessecary in raids

for some months he pretty much just stopped having a use for gold and eventually just gave away maybe 500g(which he got from rep farming dungeons and raiding) in total to various players because what else was there to do with it? all there was to do with it was buy vanity items(which he didn't) and spend it on AH fees, mailbox fees, flight paths, and repair bills, and if he got a new piece of gear he might spend some money to get it enchanted, but he kept his high-lvl greens around and mailed em to his bank alt who could disenchant them so he'd have alot of his enchanting mats covered anyway, at least for a while, but even then just raidlogging might've provided him with enough gold to cover enchants for new items that he gets from raids

 

pretty much the only thing he had to spend money on that he wasn't spending money on was consumables, and when you spend money on consumables almost all of that money spent lands in the hands of another player

 

now what happens when a ton of players are in that situation, except that they buy consumables? theres just too much money flowing into the economy(players) and not enough flowing out of it(NPCs)

First of all I feel your pain from Nost, losing a well-geared end level toon with multiple hours put in is a complete pain, however, I do feel that you were an extreme minority though. The PvE server was still very young with a growing population. Most people were still going through the trauma of leveling their toons as a lot of us are in their 40's (and older), and don't have a lot of time to power level lots of toons up based on RL constraints. As a consequence, the economy was very underdeveloped. 

However, this was not going to last. Sooner or later players would catch up and there would be a lot more end-level raiding. Because unlike retail, Vanilla is a rep-grinding, mats-acquiring, time-consuming machine, a lot of these players don't have the time to grind themselves, they just want to raid. So what happens next is that you get an increased demand for raiding consumables from comparatively well-off raiding guilds.

Suddenly, inflation takes off and all that gold you had that you didn't know what to do with, suddenly doesn't seem so much after all. If the gold-sellers start to make traction, and trust me they will, this leads to further influxes of gold, which of course inflates the economy after all. On Nost PvE it was interesting to see how the price of 100 gold was decreasing in value dollar-wise. Ultimately, woweconomics is like a real-time economy of supply and demand.

Like I said, I find the economics of WoW very interesting, I'm sure there are lots of theses that earned MBA's on how the economy develops and fluctuates. I don't have a gripe either way if the developers decide to tweak the game, but I will say that thousands of man and women hours were put into getting WoW to 1.12 to ensure it was working as intended.

I do hope they don't fix the boat bug for Feathermoon Isle, I always used to get a huge laugh out of that.   

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Hi lads,

Just a reminder that respec cost was reduced over time in late vanilla.

You can check patch notes if you don't trust me.

  • The cost to unlearn talents will now decay over time. This cost will be reduced by a rate of 5 gold per month to a minimum of 10 gold.

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Patch_1.11.0

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I'm not sure what to say Outstanding, except that you could've said that each gold piece was becoming less valuable instead of "the price of 100 gold was decreasing in value dollar-wise".

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30 minutes ago, Aquane said:

I'm not sure what to say Outstanding, except that you could've said that each gold piece was becoming less valuable instead of "the price of 100 gold was decreasing in value dollar-wise".

Yep, that's much better :D. But hey, we are coming to this realm from different directions and separate perspectives but we all have a common bond in our love for Vanilla and a desire to make things work. I really look forward to seeing all the starter edition toons on-line. I know you will all embarrass the crap out of me with my mediocre skills.

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Aquane pretty much catches the root of the problem, as far as the talent respecc/economy discussion goes.  

Its a matter which is difficult to tackle, but in general it is only difficult, because few people actually see what the problem is.
Keep in mind, this is so far from what vanilla was back then [Wont digress about it]

And it is, as Aquane listed, money dumps. Currently, what you see as money dumps are: talent respeccs, abilities (learning), repairs, buying from merchants, mounts, etc. The thing to pay attention to is, you have very few "true" dumpers, which apply to all players, throughout the whole progression of the server. Once you're settled, pretty much all the gold on the server, will keep rising, as it simply is traded between players, with a few exceptions of course. Mobs respawn, raids reset, and, the continuous cycle repeats, thus the gold keeps getting inflated. This usually isnt a problem for new players, as they have the few "money dump obstacles" to get over first, this is why you have to hit the "seasoned" players on the server, and not the new ones. Naturally some will hit the monopoly of AH and sit on 10-50k, but you can't really avoid that.
- This is why the non blizzlike suggestion with enchants is a very good one. Alternatively, you could also release items, otherwise not obtainable, for a huge amount of gold to be sold on the server [Could even do it on a rare merchant which will enable more wPvP], be it mounts, tabards, you name it. Alternatively you could force everyone on 1.4 mounts, and have armored ones cost more, or vice versa.. but this is just rambling, more or less. Blizzard did this themselves later on, few examples: 5k flying "gigantique" bag, Travelers Tundra, Mekgineers chopper, so on..
However, what should be in the center of focus is the problem, the devs will then decide what kind of server they want.

TLDR: Dont be a retard and lower respecc cost without thinking about what consequences it might have. 

 

Edited by Nether
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12 hours ago, Aquane said:

the big list of stuff to change

We have no intention of capping respec costs.  We will keep the cost decay mechanic, but the respec gold sink is an important part of the economy.  As far as being a mage and having to respec back and forth for Molten Core/AQ.. don't do that.  By the time your guild is making any progress through Ahn'Qiraj Temple, you should be sleeping your way through Molten Core in about two hours, and Blacking Lair in 70 minutes or less.  Yeah your DPS as a fire mage will be mediocre, but so what?  Your rogues, warlocks, and hunters are going to be in full tier2, and you can pad your damage numbers by AOE spamming in the suppression room and on the Blackwing Technician packs if you care that much.  MC and BWL have absurdly high margins for error.  Nobody will be complaining that you aren't doing max dps in farm-status content if you're lighting it up when it counts.  The people who have a legitimate complaint are tanks (who can't really do anything but tank in tank spec).  Our guild would have dues.  Everyone puts in a couple gold each week so the MT and OT could respec for the raid nights, or donate stonescale oils and other crafting mats so they didn't have to farm as much.  It didn't cover all their costs, but it shaved them down by half and kept everyone happy. If you have a hard time farming as a healer, grab a fire mage and tell him you'll pocket heal while he AoE grinds for half the proceeds.  You'll have an overjoyed mage friend and a boatload of gold after an hour at Gahrron's Withering. You're a team, act like one. 

I'm going to go through this big list now and address some of the things in here, since you have some interesting ideas.

We aren't likely going to change itemizations to make Mara/ZF items unique.  The only items that even applies to in Mara are the Heart of Noxxion, which you *might* want to double up on for Huhuran but using two of them anywhere else is worthless, and the Fist of Stone off Landslide, a pally/shaman mace nobody in their right mind would try to dual-wield. 

King Gordok and Cho'rush are linked, or will be by launch time.  Hunters can do a split pull with Feign Death, but that was an important mechanic we can't take away.  Instead what we'll do what Blizzard themselves often did: give a boss the ability to Summon Players if there is nobody in melee range.  King Gordok didn't have that ability specifically, but it's a known thing that hunters would abuse pathing to solo him, and we agree that needs to be prevented.

Loot is unlikely to be in the pre-1.4 condition at any time.  It's too tedious and annoying.  I'm the one who will have to do the research and database editing, and I don't want to, so it probably isn't getting done.  Instead we will probably remove a select handful of items from boss drop tables temporarily (Spellweaver's Turban, Deathbone set, etc.) and add them back in with content patches as we progress.  Items will most likely have their 1.12.1 statistics at launch.  I realize this is a major bummer for some people, but if you had any idea the amount of work already in front of me with loot, you wouldn't even bother asking.  If someone else on the team is willing to pick up the tab on this and do all that work, they're welcome to, but temporarily disabling the items is as far as I'm personally willing to go.

Bosses aren't going to be given custom mechanics, unless to prevent exploits.  We're tuning NPC spell ranks and cooldowns to make them slightly more difficult already, to compensate for better player knowledge and ability, but adding additional abilities or mechanics is pushing the boundaries of what we're trying to do:  create an authentic experience.

Node pooling for resources is already one of our priorities, they won't always respawn in the same locations on fixed timers, rather one of a number of possible locations.

We want to encourage PVP combat in the world and will not add additional NPCs to stop it.  If you're having problems with a group of people ganking you, get some friends and gank them back.  That's what Vanilla was all about.  When I was rep grinding I had a pair of guild Rogues on standby to ruin the day of anyone who decided to gank me.

We won't add quests to finish incomplete chains.  Again, authentic experience.  Adding custom content like that is funserver material.

We won't be introducing new gold dumps, we'll be maintaining all the ones that Blizzard already had.  It was hard to get gold in Vanilla, especially when you were dumping money into raid supplies.  Making rare items and enchants them more expensive to craft doesn't help anyone except the handful of people lucky enough to obtain those patterns.

Edit:  As far as adding to, or changing, the ingredients required for a crafting recipe or reagents required for a spell, that requires a client patch.  Spell requirements are saved as part of the client.  This is coming in as an edit because I wanted to verify it with Asura first.  We aren't going to ask people to install client patches so that isn't going to happen.

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1 hour ago, Darkrasp said:

snip

well would there be item reversions and whatnot if nost released their item database(s)?

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2 hours ago, Darkrasp said:

We want to encourage PVP combat in the world and will not add additional NPCs to stop it.  If you're having problems with a group of people ganking you, get some friends and gank them back.  That's what Vanilla was all about.  When I was rep grinding I had a pair of guild Rogues on standby to ruin the day of anyone who decided to gank me.

Not for those of us who played on PvE servers it wasn't ;)

Respect your stance on the gold respec caps, though I disagree with it. I think it will cause issues at release, especially with people coming from realms where they are used to a reduced cap. The two big vanilla servers now are Kronos and The Rebirth, both have reduced caps. Whine is inc, I feel a disturbance in the force.

Could I ask for your thoughts on the TBC Paladin balance mentioned in the thread above?

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