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Elicas

Non Blizzlike features planned?

521 posts in this topic

@Elicas pointed the most important issues regarding GDKP.

Some good note by random guy regarding GDKP :

There are some people which are called "Gold Tycoon" and collect Gold for the whole duration of their playing this Game.

Now their Gold will remain inside their characters because they want more and more but nothing else than that.

With GDKP their Gold will have lot of interest in Raids so they will start spending this Gold and it will cause massive Inflation and increase the value of Gold which is also fishy for Gold Sellers.

When there is no GDKP for example their Gold will remain in their pocked and it will not create inflation at all so "Farming Gold" basically is optional choice.

Remember there are lot of Bots and random type of Gold Farmers and this is working in shadow behind the scene , GDKP will allow them to become part of the Raiding and cause problems in server.

p.s once GDKP is allowed and triggered , nobody can stop it neither those who doesn't participate. It is in human nature for people to get Greedy for easy Items and easy Gold so everyone slowly will step in.

Edited by Killerduki
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6 minutes ago, Elicas said:

@Xaverius

Was thinking of Aggramar EU on retail, where Copper didn't hit above a gold a stock until the WotLK pre-patch. I've little to no familiarity with WotLK private servers.

All I can think of, is refusing to participate in it. Guild leadership refusing to allow their members to participate in it (it's usually alts of the top few guilds running it in order to funnel gold towards their raid characters) or possibly some of the top guilds refusing to recruit people geared in this fashion. In reality, there is little we can do, and even with those steps in place, you can't stop the inflation of the market once it starts. Only the admins and GM's can realistically do anything to combat it.

Edit: Agh double post fail as well!

Heh, kinda funny how those marketing studies are becoming useful in a video game of all things. Not that they give me any answers besides "we're fucked".

I suppose the only way to "combat" this is to prevent it from happening in the first place. Problem is that for no matter how long we manage to prevent it (which is already unlikely on it's own) it takes ONE slip for the whole system to collapse.

Not to mention that the thing we'll be relying on is the good will of a large number of guilds. I guess with that it's a 50/50 since we have no way of knowning what the majority of the guilds will be like on either realm.

But I think that's enough useless (and likely false) information from me. My final statement is that I'll be voting against GDKP should I be asked.

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I see I'm late to the party. I can't add much to what's been said other than these two observations.

GDKP = elitist jerks of the worst kind. The raid leader won't tolerate anything other than max optimised gear and behaviour. After all, the idea is to PUG through the raid as quickly as possible. So if you don't have BiS get out. If you don't have good enchants on each slot, get out. If you don't bring 'x' amount of gold to bid on drops, get out. Screw up = /kicked. Partly screw up = percentage drop on revenue. Get distracted/take a call/AFK etc = potential kick or reduction on revenue. All this on the whim of the guild leader who usually had a bunch of mates with him as vocal support. There was also 'rewards' for specific tasks in tanking/healing/kiting etc that paid fixed rates to recruit good players. When it worked, it was absolutely fantastic as a source of income/gear, provided you had said income to begin with. The rich got richer and everyone else entered into a horrible deflationary cycle with the raw value of gold. Kind of like the real world....

Dealing with it = actually I think dealing with it is easy. By their very nature, getting a PUG organised to do a 40 man raid requires a lot of open communication. Most of the advertising takes place in public forums and there's a lot of chatter on build-up/execution/aftermath. As a lot of us are frequenting bars and havens of ill repute forums to advertise CF and will be doing for quite some time, it'll be picked up by one of us eventually. If admin do determine that they will ban accounts of players participating in GDKP, it won't take too long to kill it off permanently. 

End decision is down to admin, it won't really effect me as I won't be doing much raiding, but it's terrible for the realm and a lot of players who want end content.

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Here are some points pro GDKP since I feel these are lacking atm.

  • GDKP or not, hardcore raiding guilds that don't need gear from MC, BWL, Onyxia etc. anymore will start selling gear to anyone willing to pay for it. If you can't afford the gear, it encourages you to get into a raiding guild to obtain said gear. Therefore you cant say it "lowers the value of being in a raiding guild" like Elicas said.
  • In continuation of the above point, GDKP keeps farmed content relevant to players who don't actually need gear anymore.

Would also like to respond to this: 

2 hours ago, Elicas said:

Reduces the recruitment pool for hardcore guilds, guts the mid-tier raiding scene (partially covered in 3).

People, who prefer to buy gear from raids rather than obtain it in a guild, aren't raiders you're looking for in the first place.

I think most of you are making it sound worse than it actually is. No one forces you to raid this way. If you can't accept the conditions/terms/requirements of the GDKP raid, simply don't join it.

 

Edited by Frost
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1 hour ago, Frost said:

People, who prefer to buy gear from raids rather than obtain it in a guild, aren't raiders you're looking for in the first place.

I think most of you are making it sound worse than it actually is. No one forces you to raid this way. If you can't accept the conditions/terms/requirements of the GDKP raid, simply don't join it.

 

That is the exact same type of rationalization used on retail WoW "you don't have to participate in that game mode if you don't like it" that has justified just about every anti-social game mode in existence.

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First of all, people have free will. It should be a possibility to organize raids with whatever conditions/terms/requirements (read: GDKP, fully enchanted, pre-raid BiS, no AFK, certain skill level etc.) you want as long as it harmonizes with the ToS. Personally I cba to raid with people that screw up the simplest of mechanics (for instance Living Bomb) and therefore I like to join PuGs on my alts that punish that kind of fuck ups. If you don't like these kinds of PuGs then join another one. I really can't grasp how I have to argue for a point that seems so obvious.

Second of all, please explain how it's anti-social to organize a raid that brings together 40 people for a couple of hours of raiding.

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GDKP is to bring half Raid with High End Geared to collect Gold and Boost other half , basically you can see 10 naked mages /dance around without meeting any requirement and collecting items over others because they have Gold to spend while other 30 do the job for them.

Meanwhile the 20 High End Geared one shot everything even before anything happen. So High End Geared get profit, naked rich (can be alt from High End Geared) get item and some minor return for the cost of his consumes.

The difference between High End Geared and ordinary player is that he collect Gold without spending it on Consumes or Gear while ordinary player will have to spend Gold for both Gear and Consumes. So High End Geared can always Gear up Alts while ordinary players can't and need the same item for his Main.

It is not much of a difference between Retail LFR System and GDKP , both representing Pugs>Guild Runs.

Nature of WoW and Guilds are to compete each other for Progress and Gear, not to become Pugs around like Feenix before it died.

Edited by Killerduki
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You make it sound like PuG raids and raiding guilds can't co-exist. It wasn't a problem on Nostalrius. Also I can't see how it should be a problem that people who invest more time in the game have better gear and more gold.

Edited by Frost
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Look, this is really all about the economy....

GDKP starts when we are getting to end game scenarios. Not only has the content being completed more or less, but it's gone to farm status. Veteran raiders on the server have not much else to do. 

'Progression' to GDKP then makes some sense as they can basically escort PuG's into raids and gain a fortune from the pot at the end of the run. It starts off being very similar to normal guild raiding where there is a thrill in bringing people down to see end content for their first time, to regressing into it just being about the money. It'll be like taking idiots up to the top of Everest who are only there because of the money they can provide to the pot, not down to their skills and abilities.

In the meantime, in the real economy carnage takes place. Consumable prices go up through the roof because the availability of gold through the GDKP system. 'Normal' guild raiders now have to produce their own consumables because they can't afford AH prices. For people who want to get into GDKP PuGS they have a choice, either farm like mad to sell mats/consumables so you can bring gold and consumables to the table, or just buy gold. You can guess what happens next.

Next, we see the value of world drops fall to zero. Crafting professions become non-profitable because no-one wants your high-end items anymore when they can farm better stuff on the next available PuG. So gathering professions like skinning and mining get debased as well. So what are all these raid leaders going to do with their gold? Well, apart from spending some money on vanity pets and an enchant that is ever-so-slightly better than the one they have now, which was ever-so-slightly better than the one they had before that, there's not much they can do other than hoard their money, farm more GDKP PuGS and wait for Burning Crusade.

So when we finally move to Burning Crusade, what do you think is going to happen to economy there, when an elite few bring in tens of thousands of gold from GDKP pots?

Why would anyone want a system, that debases an entire economy for the benefit of some bored elites, so that lazy, anti-social people, who couldn't be arsed to join a guild and learn the hard way how to play their characters, can spend their pocket money on buying gold in-game?  

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You make it sound like GDKP raids generate gold. It just transfers gold from one pocket to another. Gold doesn't all of sudden become more available. One reason that consumables get more expensive is simply because gold becomes less valuable the longer the server existed - and as you pointed out GDKP only really becomes a thing when old content has been farmed for quite some time. The value of world drops, crafting professions etc. loses it's value over time simply because there's better gear out there. It's natural and there's nothing you can do about it.

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4 minutes ago, Frost said:

You make it sound like GDKP raids generate gold. It just transfers gold from one pocket to another. Gold doesn't all of sudden become more available. One reason that consumables get more expensive is simply because gold becomes less valuable the longer the server existed - and as you pointed out GDKP only really becomes a thing when old content has been farmed for quite some time. The value of world drops, crafting professions etc. loses it's value over time simply because there's better gear out there. It's natural and there's nothing you can do about it.

GDKP don't generate gold specifically, but it distributes it to a wider audience than would usually have it.

1 guy having 20k gold doesn't cause inflation.

If he spends that 20k on a drop in a GDKP run, 40 raiders having an extra 500g does cause inflation.

It also makes the server significantly more attractive to gold sellers, nobody who saw the spam on Feenix towards the end of its life could possibly want that here.

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20 hours ago, Asura said:

5 - We don't manage anything related to this. This should be for the community itself to work out.

I'll leave this here. It's really on point. GDKP is for the community to work out.

However, it seems like it's really gold sellers that you are afraid of - and that's not a community issue. So why not discuss this instead of GDKP?

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1 hour ago, Roadblock said:

That is the exact same type of rationalization used on retail WoW "you don't have to participate in that game mode if you don't like it" that has justified just about every anti-social game mode in existence.

Regardless of ethical debates on game modes, this was a thing on retail, and there's no compelling evidence for GDKP runs destroying servers or the game on retail.

It's when players are stuck with nothing new or challenging to do for months and months that servers crash and this sort of thing crops up at all. Easily averted and quashed through server/expansion progressions.

Edited by myrnym
clarification
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11 minutes ago, Frost said:

I'll leave this here. It's really on point. GDKP is for the community to work out.

However, it seems like it's really gold sellers that you are afraid of - and that's not a community issue. So why not discuss this instead of GDKP?

I'm not afraid of gold sellers I just hate them. 

 

Happy to leave it at this too. 

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I was always Retail Player and 3 Years ago i stop playing there.

For the first time i joined in privacy server and played in Feenix, i never seen GDKP before since 2005 until i joined Feenix.

In such period Feenix had all Raids released,massive population,progression Casual,Social,Random,High End,Farming Guilds something like proper server needs and have.

After a short period i noticed some GDKP spam on public chats and i was curious what kind of System it is, then i saw some Pug favor system based on "Virtual Currency" Gold that can be transfer as valid everywhere.

This gave me some bad feelings so i started to monitor everything regarding this System and the Game itself.

First thing i noticed after few months there was more and more GDKP runs everyday than Pugs for free and fun, GDKP become more attractive than free Pugs.

Next thing i noticed was 5 Man Dungeons become lesser attractive and people tend to skip them so they hit level 60 farm some minimum amount of Gold and step to the raids straight forward.

After a while i noticed Consumes in Auction price was increasing weekly but strange amount, first week i was selling Major Mana Potion for 10 Gold/Stack , second week they become 15 and in 5-6 months they went up to 200 Gold/Stack.

Next there was major disbanding of Social/Casual Guilds because they was no more attractive to players, everyone would prefer to Raid as GDKP and get Gear without efforts.

Not much time has passed Everyone begin to farm GDKP Molten Core,Onyxia,ZG/AQ20 on daily basis, the Value of their items went up to 10 000 Gold during this period.

After a while usual High End Geared who was 90% of the creators of successful and easy/fast runs they got all the Gear they need from MC,Ony,ZG/AQ20 and they switch toward higher Tier BWL/AQ40.

When that happen MC,Ony,ZG,AQ20 become unused, worthless Raids that nobody will attend anymore and with that automatic Progression Guilds also disband during this period.

Everyone that hit level 60 go to farm some minor amount of Gold required to join in Raid and directly join to T2,T2.5 GDKP for both Gold and Gear. So basically T1 and 20 Man was not attractive at all neither anyone bother with them, their items was extremely down valued to 0 same as World Drops,Crafting Items and the Mats for Crafting Items.

In this period Newcomers had tremendous issues to get Gear and Raid because there was Gap between T2,T2.5 that required some specific requirements and T3 that all the existent members would join after they get their Cake from T2,T2.5.

So Newcomers rarely stay in server and most likely leave for this reason , there was no 5-10-20 and T1 interest at all so nobody could start in the server as Newcomer (Begins with 0 Gold and no Gear) while existent player and High End Gear had all benefits from this.

Now you have server that is disconnected from New players, people start to behave more Toxic due to "SinglePlayer self independent" Game similar to Retail LFR.

Then the same High End people got their Cakes again from T2,T2.5 getting all the Loots they need so the only thing left for them was T3 (Naxx).

The server hold a bit with Naxx because KT was about to release so the same High End Gear people was sitting there and waiting for it.

Once the server released KT , High End Geared killed/farmed it and then  they quit the server.

What left from Feenix ? Dead Server without new players because it was disconnected from them and at the same time Dead server because High End Geared got all their Gear and quit.

This was the whole adventure back in Feenix i had until the server wipe out. When Nostalrius and Kronoss released everyone joined there. Why they didn't stood in server with all Raids Released?

 

Now talking about Farming Consumes to profit more Gold , in Feenix you could so easy manipulate the farming for example:

You can always use port application to give different IP for each account you use, VPN has nothing with this so preventing VPN won't save you.

Gold sellers was abusing this so they would multibox switching from place to place via Login/Logout different Characters at the farm spot. So 70% of the Farming Mats for Consumes was in the hands of Gold Sellers and "Shadow Farmers" that we all call them "Chinese" which is also wrong assumption.

Regarding inflation i already mention "click on the link" :

So basically you have all the Gold in server at the hands of few High End people and Gold Sellers only because GDKP redistribute Gold the ordinary player will use this Gold mainly to buy Consumes from AH and some Profit for Gear.

High End People will use this gold only for specific Items and for their Alts only .

Gold Sellers will use this opportunity to profit easy and manipulate with everything.

 

Feenix is almost 4-5 Year Old server (maybe more), it was always farming high end server for ages and nothing was changed at all. Once the GDKP came out it didn't left much and the server died within 1.5 Year period of time , no matter how much i warned them about this system it was all pointless because Feenix Admins cared about Donation so they was selling Gold for Real money there and supported GDKP.

Nostalrius was very young Server and GDKP came out there very late few months before the server was Shut Down by Blizzard otherwise it would been similar story as Feenix.

 

My point is , i am not trying to convince anyone on how to play , do this on Guild Basis because it will not affect everyone. Doing GDKP publicly and Server wide it is changing the progression method and wiping out slowly the server in various reasons and terms making it unstable for long period once it is spread around like plague .

Edited by Killerduki
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49 minutes ago, myrnym said:

Regardless of ethical debates on game modes, this was a thing on retail, and there's no compelling evidence for GDKP runs destroying servers or the game on retail.

It's when players are stuck with nothing new or challenging to do for months and months that servers crash and this sort of thing crops up at all. Easily averted and quashed through server/expansion progressions.

That is the reason why Blizzard during Wotlk (first time when this system was presented massive in Retail) they released Vendors with Mounts that cost 24 000 Gold , Respec Cost was increased . This was all done to reduce the inflation which they also failed but temporary prevented all the way until Pandaria.

In Pandaria Blizzard did a real good job with popping up "Black Market" so you would spend 100 000 up to 1 000 000 Gold for some Soulbound Item and this Gold was automatic deflation.

In Legion Blizzard decide to even sell "Game Cards" for tremendous amount of Gold and this  was also the reason to reduce the inflation.

Meanwhile in privacy servers you don't have such forms of deflation Gold so the Gold was switching around People instead deflating , any Quest,Mob and Raid Boss killed reward Gold and with this it is contributing toward Inflation.

Nostalrius did not inflate so much because of the "Respec Cost" and the prices remained down .

 

Edited by Killerduki
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I'm not sure we need to stick our noses into this.  GDKP, toxic as it is, is meta-game behavior.  That's like saying we should ban people from playing with no pants on.  We really can't control that.

Our best bet is to inform players of the results of GDKP and discourage participation, but what would be stopping someone from doing it entirely over voice chat and writing down a google doc with limited access.. How would we ever know it was going on?

Only thing I can think of would be some sort of tracking to flag a person getting traded large amounts of gold all in succession.  We could have that player auto-banned for 24 hours.  Everyone participating loses all the gold they put in, and staff has 24 hours to look at the logs and figure out if this was legit or not, taking appropriate action if necessary.

I'm unfamiliar with this practice though.  I do remember our TBC guild had people who could destroy the ZA mount run every time, and once they all got it, they'd "sell" an open slot to random people from the server for gold.  I suppose that's more or less the same thing.  If that's all we're talking about, then I'm not too worried about it.  It's more important to go after gold farmers and gold buyers to prevent that hyperinflation in the first place.

Another, horrifically un-Blizzlike solution to hyperinflation would be a server-wide wealth decay, where gold decays by a set percentage, for example 10%/week, or 1.5%/day.  People with a thousand gold are losing only a little bit, but people with a large supply of gold are getting hit much harder.

These ideas, btw, are pure speculation and spitballing.  Not official solutions to anything.  I'm still not sold that this is something staff should be involved in.  It's true that players should know better than to knowingly walk into a scam.  We can inform them, but we can't protect them from their own stupidity.

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The easiest solution to prevent GDKP inflating and changing course of the game is simple : Prevent GDKP from public channels such as /world to be advertised and from Forums .

If you let people know that GDKP is forbidden they will not spam it public, this automatically will stop them collecting group for it.

p.s it is not same as Gold sell runs. Gold sell runs benefits only few Guilds/Individuals and does not inflate everyone while GDKP spread the Gold to everyone and inflate the server.

Edited by Killerduki
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Perhaps something as easy as auto-muting all messages with "GDKP" in it will stamp it out at the start.

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On 7/22/2016 at 8:12 AM, Elicas said:

Perhaps something as easy as auto-muting all messages with "GDKP" in it will stamp it out at the start.

I don't think running a chat gestapo will solve much. You can never stop text as much as you like. GDKP ban just gets us to the current (Cata+) "Paid raid runs", where people pay gold for a run anyways.

At the end of the day, there is no actual way to stop this. The BEST way to stop this is for us to work at tracking down sellers, which we have quite a lot of player logging going in to help us adjust. I obviously won't say anything about what we're doing, but I can say we are working on making sure it's handled.

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I'm of the 'as close to retail as possible' crowd. Something however to help respec costs and give healers a quality of life improvement, could be to grant one third of their bonus healing as damage. Like they did in a later patch in TBC.

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55 minutes ago, Gaea said:

I'm of the 'as close to retail as possible' crowd. Something however to help respec costs and give healers a quality of life improvement, could be to grant one third of their bonus healing as damage. Like they did in a later patch in TBC.

1) Get some gear with spell dmg on if you want to deal damage. 2) Respec costs is an important gold sink.

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3 minutes ago, Frost said:

1) Get some gear with spell dmg on if you want to deal damage. 2) Respec costs is an important gold sink.

To quote myself; "I'm of the 'as close to retail as possible' crowd." Seeing however as this is a thread for non-Blizzard like suggestions, this is mine.

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Right and I'm trying to tell you that "quality of life improvements" is one of the reasons retail is bad today.

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