Welcome to Crestfall Gaming

Register now to Crestfall Gaming. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to contribute to this site by submitting your own content or replying to existing content. You'll be able to customize your profile, receive reputation points as a reward for submitting content, while also communicating with other members via your own private inbox, plus much more! This message will be removed once you have signed in.

Elicas

Non Blizzlike features planned?

521 posts in this topic
36 minutes ago, Vitamalz said:

Well, challenge is relative. It was more of a gamble "get the BiS in time or you don goof'd"

In that regard yes, it's a RNGFest. But getting to 19 isn't such a huge deal say, get to 29 or 39. If you're also running Deadmines it's a matter of how lazy one wishes to be as well: You do not need to be there for all bossfights of DM - but you can only instance for the particular kill - therefore neutralizing a huge amount of experience gained. But then again, people usually tended to be lazy.

 

But you're right, and perhaps these questions can be asked in our Q&A session, where Asura is likely to have a definitive answer, as our knowledge is limited to what we know(in this instance, it'll come out when the timeline supported it).

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, you can always die at the boss and not receive any experience from a kill.
It works pertty good if you have some high level friend to clear the path before the boss while you wait outside of the dungeon and come just for specific boss/bosses.
I did it this way with my 29 level twink.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Blizzard put the players with XP-Stop in a bg with only XP-Stop players. They tried to seperate twinks with pugs. They succeded. This is why the lvl 60 community died on retail which lasted until Cata and died...

 

So you should do the same actually, I remember on Nostalrius, the lvl 10-19 and 20-29 bracket was filled with twinks, you couldnt play for fun as a pug! So put them in a seperate BG with only Twinks!

You as a Game Designer always have to make sure the bad parts of the game need to be removed without favoring anyone or anything!

 

So it was not intended from Blizzard that some players take advantage of a situation to be more powerfull than other players (TWINKS!!! (and majority of Battlegrounds that are Premades)).

Battlegrounds are supposed to be fun for everyone, by allowing twinks to flood BG's is not blizzlike, it didnt really happen on Retail, i didnt experience it, there were here and there but not like on Private servers.

 

Sad Story. Fix what frustrates and dissapoints the most people. People get frustrated by premades? DO SOMETHING! Stop saying they are part of the game, what a nonsense statement. First and main function of a battleground is to queue for it, second OPTIONAL, is group-queue. Also there is this List you can click which BG you wanna join, thats a way to play together by whispering eaech other which BG you are and then queueing for it.

 

Im not writing this for a discussion. dont discuss please, read-only.

Edited by Brikot
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Brikot said:

Blizzard put the players with XP-Stop in a bg with only XP-Stop players. They tried to seperate twinks with pugs. They succeded. This is why the lvl 60 community died on retail which lasted until Cata and died...

 

So you should do the same actually, I remember on Nostalrius, the lvl 10-19 and 20-29 bracket was filled with twinks, you couldnt play for fun as a pug! So put them in a seperate BG with only Twinks!

You as a Game Designer always have to make sure the bad parts of the game need to be removed without favoring anyone or anything!

 

So it was not intended from Blizzard that some players take advantage of a situation to be more powerfull than other players (TWINKS!!! (and majority of Battlegrounds that are Premades)).

Battlegrounds are supposed to be fun for everyone, by allowing twinks to flood BG's is not blizzlike, it didnt really happen on Retail, i didnt experience it, there were here and there but not like on Private servers.

 

Sad Story. Fix what frustrates and dissapoints the most people. People get frustrated by premades? DO SOMETHING! Stop saying they are part of the game, what a nonsense statement. First and main function of a battleground is to queue for it, second OPTIONAL, is group-queue. Also there is this List you can click which BG you wanna join, thats a way to play together by whispering eaech other which BG you are and then queueing for it.

 

Im not writing this for a discussion. dont discuss please, read-only.

I know that you don't want other people's opinion on that matter, but consider this:
By the time XP-Stop existed, and people were queue'd differently accordingly, we already had well established Realmpools which meant a far greater pool for people to be queue'd up together for battlegrounds.
This is a thing of the impossible for a private server, especially for us. We will never reach numbers of 6-10 Blizzard servers during Wrath combined.

Since I am always for the idea of QoL changes that don't impact anyone negatively (an XP-Stop doesn't affect anyone not-XP-stopping), I am really indifferent in this matter. Having it and not having it both has its ups and downs and both ups and downs are only valid for one party. We either exclude the Twinks to be doomed to queue WSG in an attempt to get one 3v3 going (at max) or we frustrate anyone not twinking by letting an occassional twink slip in. Seeing it from that perspective, we should just leave it as is.

Another story is the prohibition of the group-queue-up-AddOn that was so apparent on Nost.

Edited by Vitamalz
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think most people could agree non blizzlike changes are ok as long as it allows everyone a fair experience (in terms of no exploits).

one example that I really do not see a solution to is the old honor system and BG queues.

I always thought maybe making a custom match making system like TBC or give players a PR/MMR type number every week when queueing to determine certain choices in matchmaking could do the trick.

 

but to what end though? everyone is used to ranking with premades stomping pugs. everyone is used to people afking in BGs. everyone is used to people queue dodging/scouting the other faction. I mean.. you cant really fix that unless you change the system.. and who wants to change the system? probably no one.

 

I would love to see a total revamp of the pvp matchmaking system with different options. new experience for pvp and keeps things fresh.  but, it wont happen anytime soon with the current community on private servers. everyone wants the vanilla pudding of vanilla pvp. :/  no one wants to try chocolate/butterscotch/cheesecake flavor pudding.

vanilla flavor forever.

Edited by imbaslap
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, imbaslap said:

I think most people could agree non blizzlike changes are ok as long as it allows everyone a fair experience (in terms of no exploits).

one example that I really do not see a solution to is the old honor system and BG queues.

I always thought maybe making a custom match making system like TBC or give players a PR/MMR type number every week when queueing to determine certain choices in matchmaking could do the trick.

 

but to what end though? everyone is used to ranking with premades stomping pugs. everyone is used to people afking in BGs. everyone is used to people queue dodging/scouting the other faction. I mean.. you cant really fix that unless you change the system.. and who wants to change the system? probably no one.

 

I would love to see a total revamp of the pvp matchmaking system with different options. new experience for pvp and keeps things fresh.  but, it wont happen anytime soon with the current community on private servers. everyone wants the vanilla pudding of vanilla pvp. :/  no one wants to try chocolate/butterscotch/cheesecake flavor pudding.

vanilla flavor forever.

People would just play other expansions if they wanted that. Vanilla PvP is simple, should be kept that way. Abstracting it and throwing in match making, points and other things to go along with it wouldn't work unless you changed the entirety of class balance and gear balance, which will obviously snowball way too hard from there.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, liedrystia said:

People would just play other expansions if they wanted that. Vanilla PvP is simple, should be kept that way. Abstracting it and throwing in match making, points and other things to go along with it wouldn't work unless you changed the entirety of class balance and gear balance, which will obviously snowball way too hard from there.

Speaking from my personal view, not as a Crestfall Staff member:

I think that there should be some matchmaking in Battlegrounds. You should usually match up with the same ranked people to grant a more balanced play. But that's just the competitive in me speaking. Also not saying it's mandatory, just something I'd personally like to see. Not gonna go too much indepth with it, people will assume things otherwise. :D

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nost dipped into changing matchmaking a few times but during the course of their server. a lot of feedback from the pvp community was negative on a bunch of things and maybe the only positive one was probably banning Chinese. :)

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Matchmaking can be done a ton of ways, more or less all of which would be invisible to the players.  Calculating and saving Elo values is relatively easy, as is doing a League of Legends-style "hidden MMR".  You'd have an averaged Elo for the group (probably discard the highest two and lowest two, this would prevent people purposely sticking one or two smurfs in to purposely lower their group rating), and the system would "prefer" to match your group up with another group close to the same rating as you.  If you were stuck in queue for a long time, it would loosen the restrictions further and further until eventually you got a match.

Another option is having group queues "prefer" to go against other group queues.  So if you queue with 10 people, it looks for another group of 10 to match you against.. If you're in queue for 5 minutes, it looks for a group of 9, after another five minutes, a group of eight, etc.  That's good in a way, but it has no protection against your premade group of friends rolling up against the server's top teams.

Another option, arguably more appropriate to Vanilla is a Sum of Rank system.  Take your group, let's say it's a Rank 13, two Rank 12's, two Rank 10's and five Rank 9's.  Your Sum of Rank score is 102.  If we discard the bottom score to prevent scumming, it's 93.  The matchmaking system would try to match you up against groups within a range of say, 10 SoR.  If it can't find one after a few minutes, it increases the range.  The effective result is that a team of Rank 12's isn't going to ever see a team of Rank 3's in a battleground, and if they run into a pug group, it's going to be a pug full of Rank 9+ players who should probably know their way around a battleground anyways.

(Edit:  We could also do a system which is a weighted combination of some or all of these things.  It could care 40% about Sum of Rank, 30% about group size, and 30% about average Elo.  All things are possible.)

Of course, any system which consistently pits the top teams only against other top teams is counterproductive in the Vanilla Honor Farm.  If you take away queue dodging, those players are just going to start win trading instead.  If you ban people for win trading, and enforce a pure skill-vs-skill system, then you run into the situation where players are unable to ever farm enough honor to reach high ranks.  The Vanilla system did rely on a certain amount of imbalance, so any matchmaking system has to keep in mind that players have to be able to win matches, and lots of them, in order to hit the top ranks.

 

This is something we'll discuss in a lot more depth and get feedback on further down the road.  Since we don't plan to launch with the honor system enabled, it's low priority at the moment.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, Darkrasp said:

 If you ban people for win trading, and enforce a pure skill-vs-skill system, then you run into the situation where players are unable to ever farm enough honor to reach high ranks.
 

 

@Darkrasp, there is a certain amount of honor a player has to reach to even become able to archieve rank 14?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
51 minutes ago, Darkrasp said:

-snip-

i think you should just be making group queues go against other group queues unless premades happen anyway, which they did to an extent shortly before the nost shutdown announcement on nost pve(i was in quite a few largely-premade avs for rep even through group queue didn't work for it)

well actually im not sure what you should do

Edited by Aquane
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, Aquane said:

i think you should just be making group queues go against other group queues unless premades happen anyway, which they did to an extent shortly before the nost shutdown announcement on nost pve(i was in quite a few largely-premade avs for rep even through group queue didn't work for it)

well actually im not sure what you should do

Group queues actually was the mechanic that Blizzard had, but it didn't exactly work and pitted you usually against any random team instead of matching you up with another premade. But this'll be a good topic to discuss in the Q&A. :)

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Brikot said:

@Darkrasp, there is a certain amount of honor a player has to reach to even become able to archieve rank 14?

There is.  I'll do a quick explanation of how the Vanilla honor system worked.  This is somewhat simplified, and I'm using round numbers, so PvP pros please don't jump on me, I'm just illustrating the major concepts here:

1.  Everyone collects Honor Points for getting Honor Kills, Battleground wins, and Battleground Objectives.  Even losing in a Battleground awarded some honor, but obviously not as much as a win.  You collect these honor points each week, as many as you can get.

2.  At server maintenance time, every week, the server counts up the honor for every player who got at least 15 Honor Kills that week, and places them in order from highest Honor to lowest Honor.  There are two separate lists, one for each faction.  For our example, I'm going to use the Alliance list, and I'm going to assume for the sake of the example that exactly 1000 players got enough Honor Kills to be counted in the list.  So the Alliance "Weekly Standings" is calculated with the top Honor-getter at position 1, and the lowest at 1000.

3.  The server then assigns each person "Rank Points" based on their standing.  The top person gets 13000 RP.  Everyone else gets a lower number based on their standing.  It's not a linear amount, it's only linear between set breakpoints.  To explain that, let's go back to our list of 1000 players.  The server knows #1 is getting 13000 points.  It sets breakpoints at specific numbers. 

The player with Weekly Standing number 2 gets 12000 RP. 
The person at position 7 gets 11000 RP . 
The person at position 17 gets 10000 RP .
The person at position 37 gets 9000 RP ...

Further breakpoints are set at positions 77, 137, 207, 287, 377, 477, 587, 715, 858, and 1000 (the last guy in this case, gets nothing).  Each breakpoint drops by 1000 RP.  The breakpoints will shift up based on the number of people in the list, so if it's 2000 people instead of 1000, the breakpoints will be at 4, 14, 34, 74, etc.

You calculate your accumulated RP linearly between breakpoints, so if you are weekly standing #27, halfway between 17 and 37, you get 9500 RP.

4.  RP are carried over from week to week, and your RP total determines your PvP rank.  You need 60000 RP in order to get Rank 14.  It's basically one rank for every 5000 RP you accumulate.  Rank 1 doesn't need any specific amount of RP, you get it automatically when you get 15 Honor Kills.  Rank 2 only takes 2000 RP, and then it's 5k, 10k, 15k, etc.

5.  RP decays at a rate of 20% per week.  This is the killer.  This means that if you have 50000 RP in a given week, 10000 of that decays away when the new calculation is made.  That means, in our example of a list with 1000 players, you have to be in position 17 or higher or you actually LOSE standing.  Top PvPers must maintain a very high standing for the entire time it takes to crawl from 50k to 60k if they want to hit Rank 14.  If you are the top Honor-getter for your faction every week, going from 50k (Rank 12) to 60k (Rank 14) takes 5 straight weeks of being #1.  FIVE WEEKS!  And for everyone else, it's basically impossible to progress past Rank 13, you simply can't earn enough RP to outpace decay at that point unless you are at the top Weekly Standing.


You can see how awful this system is and why Blizzard changed it.  We'll obviously keep it the way it was until the pre-TBC patch got rid of it entirely, but it was certainly a messy, unhealthy piece of code.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

its good to have this discussion as well. I know hardcore pvpers and players who enjoy premading will want to hear the plans here if there is any plans to make any changes.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you're not going to take actions against account_sharing/queue_dodging/win_trading/infinite_multiaccount_honorfarming, what's the point of the rank-system?

Are we ranking the best cheaters?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Would removing the option to group queue solve anything?

If everyone had to just queue randomly perhaps there would be more pug v pug action. I like the idea of Darks Sum of Rank option as well.

For me it doesn't really matter though, I wont be going for rank 14, only 13 for the Kitty gear.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, Elicas said:

Would removing the option to group queue solve anything?

If everyone had to just queue randomly perhaps there would be more pug v pug action. I like the idea of Darks Sum of Rank option as well.

For me it doesn't really matter though, I wont be going for rank 14, only 13 for the Kitty gear.

Doesn't solve anything if it's only soloqueue, you'd never even see r13 with the amount of playing you'd have to do to outfarm the nihaos and other accountsharing scum.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
  • If it's blizzlike, leave it in.
  • If it's not, leave it out.

Forcing the devs to make design decisions in a project where that is not the intention is not viable.

The further you deviate from Blizzlike, the more niche the server's appeal.

By sticking to Blizzlike strictly, no-one has any argument for dissatisfaction that can meaningfully be leveled at the devs.

The moment you include even one non-blizzlike feature, it sets a precedent allowing for requests for more, and dissatisfaction when those requests are not met.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

by the way here another new thing u probably didnt hear: To have fair battlegrounds and not removing premades you can try to have a certain ratio on pugs and premades, which should be around 70%:30%, so if there are 10 bgs open, there should be 7 bgs full of pugs and 3 bgs premades. this is fine, but not something like 3 bgs up 2 bgs premades. So could you make a restriction how many big premades can join? Together with counting how many in that group are rank 9+, and then depending on that, allow only a certain amount of groups to queue if there are enough pug games.

 

1 premade bg = one side premade. (doesnt matter what the other /factionside is)

 

Premades are also another factor how to reduce your population permanently and can have a regular population reduction and it will be the death of the server (slow death). You saw it on Kronos before nostalrius shut down, they went down and down. If you dont think this is the case then let me tell this: Every time someone levels up to 60 and want to enjoy BGs, all he does is face a premade, every game, so then there is nothing more to do and the guy logs out. (BTW i left kronos because of that and changed to nost). PvP is important, more important than PvE. I get motivated to do PvE, if there are some players in pvp who has to much stamina and maybe i want to deal more dmg so i need more gear. With premades, there is no potential for that interest, u get stumped by 2-5 lame frost mages anyway so there is no point in getting better gear.

 

You definitly have to take a close look at the battlegrounds. A population of 900 players is not blizzlike and thats why you have to start using your brain to find out why its low and which content is it why people leave, Kronos ignored until a few weeks ago when to many threads opened up about pvp. I really hope these 2 new servers coming up knows it. Every time there is so much positive talk but then ingame its so bad.

 

Nostalrius has shown Gryphons in alterac valley in their video, but for the whole existense of nostalrius, it was NEVER possible to summon them. Now wtf was that about. I tried hard getting them summoned for hours an dhours per AV.... There was no attention given to AV, shows devs dont know what potential that BG has...

Edited by Brikot
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Darkrasp said:

There is.  I'll do a quick explanation of how the Vanilla honor system worked.  This is somewhat simplified, and I'm using round numbers, so PvP pros please don't jump on me, I'm just illustrating the major concepts here:

1.  Everyone collects Honor Points for getting Honor Kills, Battleground wins, and Battleground Objectives.  Even losing in a Battleground awarded some honor, but obviously not as much as a win.  You collect these honor points each week, as many as you can get.

2.  At server maintenance time, every week, the server counts up the honor for every player who got at least 15 Honor Kills that week, and places them in order from highest Honor to lowest Honor.  There are two separate lists, one for each faction.  For our example, I'm going to use the Alliance list, and I'm going to assume for the sake of the example that exactly 1000 players got enough Honor Kills to be counted in the list.  So the Alliance "Weekly Standings" is calculated with the top Honor-getter at position 1, and the lowest at 1000.

3.  The server then assigns each person "Rank Points" based on their standing.  The top person gets 13000 RP.  Everyone else gets a lower number based on their standing.  It's not a linear amount, it's only linear between set breakpoints.  To explain that, let's go back to our list of 1000 players.  The server knows #1 is getting 13000 points.  It sets breakpoints at specific numbers. 

The player with Weekly Standing number 2 gets 12000 RP. 
The person at position 7 gets 11000 RP . 
The person at position 17 gets 10000 RP .
The person at position 37 gets 9000 RP ...

Further breakpoints are set at positions 77, 137, 207, 287, 377, 477, 587, 715, 858, and 1000 (the last guy in this case, gets nothing).  Each breakpoint drops by 1000 RP.  The breakpoints will shift up based on the number of people in the list, so if it's 2000 people instead of 1000, the breakpoints will be at 4, 14, 34, 74, etc.

You calculate your accumulated RP linearly between breakpoints, so if you are weekly standing #27, halfway between 17 and 37, you get 9500 RP.

4.  RP are carried over from week to week, and your RP total determines your PvP rank.  You need 60000 RP in order to get Rank 14.  It's basically one rank for every 5000 RP you accumulate.  Rank 1 doesn't need any specific amount of RP, you get it automatically when you get 15 Honor Kills.  Rank 2 only takes 2000 RP, and then it's 5k, 10k, 15k, etc.

5.  RP decays at a rate of 20% per week.  This is the killer.  This means that if you have 50000 RP in a given week, 10000 of that decays away when the new calculation is made.  That means, in our example of a list with 1000 players, you have to be in position 17 or higher or you actually LOSE standing.  Top PvPers must maintain a very high standing for the entire time it takes to crawl from 50k to 60k if they want to hit Rank 14.  If you are the top Honor-getter for your faction every week, going from 50k (Rank 12) to 60k (Rank 14) takes 5 straight weeks of being #1.  FIVE WEEKS!  And for everyone else, it's basically impossible to progress past Rank 13, you simply can't earn enough RP to outpace decay at that point unless you are at the top Weekly Standing.


You can see how awful this system is and why Blizzard changed it.  We'll obviously keep it the way it was until the pre-TBC patch got rid of it entirely, but it was certainly a messy, unhealthy piece of code.

 

Those breakpoints you list in #3 are pretty far off for a real example, bracket 3 would never be standing 7 on a real server, unless somehow the server only has 1k pop actually. For example, at the start of nost with only like ~5k avg pop at a time bracket1 was 9 ppl and at the end it was like 16-17 ppl or something huge

btw; in 1.12 they increased the bracket sizes to 0.003% ,0.008% ,0.020% etc

Losing in a 3-0 in a Warsong or being 5capped in AB gives 0 honor. You get one mark(133 honor) if you lose.

For anyone interested in the math behind the vanilla grind: http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Honor_system_(pre-2.0_formulas)

 

 

Edited by slipryyyy
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, slipryyyy said:

 

Those breakpoints you list in #3 are pretty far off for a real example, bracket 3 would never be standing 7 on a real server, unless somehow the server only has 1k pop actually. For example, at the start of nost with only like ~5k avg pop at a time bracket1 was 9 ppl and at the end it was like 16-17 ppl or something huge

Losing in a 3-0 in a Warsong or being 5capped in AB gives 0 honor. You get one mark(133 honor) if you lose.

For anyone interested in the math behind the vanilla grind: http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Honor_system_(pre-2.0_formulas)

 

 

You only get one mark if you lose and the game takes at least 10 minutes. 

 World of Warcraft Client Patch 1.8.4 (2005-12-06)

Battlegrounds
- Battles must now last at least ten minutes after the start of the 
  battle in order for the losing team to receive a Mark of Honor. 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Like I said, I was simplifying for the sake of the example.  But yes, there are a number of other factors.  Decay, for example, is cut in half if you earn less Honor in a week than you would lose to decay.  Max PVP Rank is also capped by player level, etc.

Post is still correct in substance and serves the purpose of explaining how things work.

As far as measures for preventing scummy behavior, we'll take suggestions on that and work on it later in the development process.   The point I was trying to make is that the Vanilla Honor System relies pretty heavily on people being able to consistently win in order to reach high ranks, and farm tens of thousands of honor points a week.  Putting in systems that severely limit that by increasing queue times or quality of opposition for premades have the potential of making the honor grind completely impossible.  Tongue in cheek, I suppose that solves the problem of "overpowered" PvP gear, but seriously, solutions of that nature are something we're going to have to run models of to make sure a seemingly good fix doesn't cause math problems.

The Vanilla honor system, truthfully, just wasn't very good.  Not many PvPers were sad to see it go in 2.0, and I won't be either when we progress that far.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't disable this please.

 

 

its not blizzlike 

let us have it

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Ciar said:

Don't disable this please.

 

 

its not blizzlike 

let us have it

too late.

I already annoyed the staff running around ironforge on a naked female gnome with pigtails spamming it at them doing 200% run speed. :P:P 

I think they are gonna do a change to that item to reduce the "annoyance" it saw on other private servers.. you can still complete the quest with it though so no fear there. :D 

Edited by imbaslap
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm pretty sure it's just bound to the Tram, so you can annoy people all you want riding between SW and IF, but once you take it out of the area, it disappears.  Pretty sure.  Asura would know for sure.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now