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Crestfall - Definition of success

Which elements do you feel constitutes success for Crestfall?   81 members have voted

  1. 1. Which elements do you feel constitutes success for Crestfall?


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Greets.

So this topic came about from a number of conversations I had with other forum members, sometimes here, sometimes in Discord. I won't mention any names owing to the fact that I don't want them to be guilty by association, but happy to credit/debit as required.

This is a reasonably serious topic. It's about what the community feels constitutes Crestfall becoming a success story. There's no one answer, there are many. Also, success is likely to be based on a number of different components, not just one. For that reason we have a multiple choice poll. I was doing some experimentation today on that on the basis, but my limited understanding of private servers will ensure I may miss some important topic. 

So, if you don't see something that you consider critically important to the success of CF, just drop a post below and I'll add it if deserves inclusion. Just remember not to actually vote until I amend it.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

POPULATION

There's been quite a debate about the population on Crestfall, mostly in connection with population caps. Both revolve around each other. Clearly, for a server to be successful a reasonable population is critical. You really need ~1000 people online on a consistent level to constitute a popular server. This is currently the case with K2 and Elysium. The pop cap at present is seen to be 5000-5500 with 3000-3500 seen as being ''Blizzlike''. High populations mean a number of good and bad things. On the positive side, high populations ensure community, PvP, instances, elite quests, the economy and at a later stage, raids, are functional and successful. On the negative side, too high a population can lead to lag, log on issues, contention on quests/mobs/items and gathering resources. It seems that CF will prevent most of these by clustering and dynamic spawn rates, but the potential for issues are still there.

Now everyone wants a healthy population, so from my viewpoint if you take this as a priority, it's because you prefer Nostalrius-type numbers. So by picking population you are saying that 5000 should be the minimum we aim for on the realm at any one time, and more is preferable.

RAID FUNCTIONALITY

So we all now that raid progression is linear in terms of difficulty. Therefore Molton Core for example is pretty easy for 1.12 talented, equipped and specced toons as MC was never retroactively fixed to take into account these changes. As we move to BWL, ZG, AQ and Naxx, the difficulties increase but not to the point that will cause huge problems for high end raiders with their knowledge, skill sets and min/maxing. But that's just it, these elite guilds want a challenge, they don't expect to be constantly wiping and failing but they do want to see bosses put up a big fight so they can have some fun. This seems perfectly reasonable to me. In addition, on other servers the scripting and functionality of the bosses including loot drops goes from the appalling to the laughable. 

For Crestfall to be successful therefore, it needs to find some balance in remaining ''Blizzlike'' and yet provide this challenge. Therefore, changes are proposed in tweaking how bosses function so to maintain the element of surprise and thus provide a challenge rather than taking the easy option of just doubling the hit points. Critically, elite raiders are small in number but large in impact. If the top tier guilds think CF instances and raids are well scripted and challenging, it will be worth its weight in gold in relation to good publicity. For scrubs like me that would like to do part-time raiding, having functional and well-scripted raids is also important. 

This is a self-evident priority, but there are those that don't particularly care about end-content and may just give this option a miss

PVP

What do I know about PvP? Not a lot. But there are times that you just want to get to know your toon/class much better and play under demanding and stressful conditions, so I understand the situation only too well. For the record, I like AB and AV. I would love to play the original and best AV. For die-hards, playing real AV and world PVP may be the only reason why you want to play on Crestfall. Unless there is cross-BG's you're unlikely to see me. If we do have cross-BG's then I'll hire myself out as a decoy as I know you all want my head on your mantelpiece. So if functional PvP is your priority vote here.

PATHING

When I was in Nostalrius even a scrub like me saw a lot of bugs, most of these involved pathing for mobs in caves. In nearly every starter zone, there is a cave system where you have to enter to kill x mobs or an x elite boss etc. This is designed by Blizz to challenge your skillsets as you need to be aware of aggro radius, mob respawns , mana/regen etc etc. Not a huge challenge of course but if the mobs don't path correctly you may find yourself in constant combat, or have mobs which pulse other mobs through roofs or all sorts of unwarranted actions. On the reverse side, correct pathing of pets is also an issue for Warlocks and Hunters if their pets exhibit the same issues. You could end up aggroing an entire cave system if your pet doesn't path correctly. This is a absolute MaNGOS issue, so if CF can get this right from the get-go it positively reinforces the perspective that this is an original, new and fresh emulator, better than all the rest. If pathing is an issue for you, it's because you want CF to show how much better it is than MaNGOS or because you play a class that required this as a bottom line.

ECONOMY

This is actually a very complex subject. A functioning economy is based on so many different factors I don't know where to begin. But for example, it includes putting in preventative measures against Devilsaur/Black Lotus cartels, banning of Chinese accounts, modifying bosses in DM to prevent solo farming and so forth. The developers have ensured that the worst proponents for exploits in Nostalrius have been recruited to play test the server to ensure that all the old tricks don't count here. This should make the servers fair for all. What you put in you should get out. If a functioning, fair economy is important for you, tick this box.

BUG FIXING, FEEDBACK, CM's

So we all know the issues with MaNGOS servers because we've all seen this issues before, right? So CF will do away with these issues as it's a completely different core, right? Key thing here, as some wise people pointed out is that CF is likely to have its own unique issues. At server launch, things will not go smoothly. It's the way of things. Even after open Beta and PTR when the realms go live with the population demands, we will find that there are issues unforeseen by the developers and the realm testers. 

This is perfectly normal.

What's critical therefore is how quickly the devs respond to these issues. Encouragingly, because the devs have developed their own core and not copy/pasted it from somewhere else, they can identify the issues and resolve them very quickly based on anecdotal conversations. What's critical therefore, is how this works on live realms. Does CF have the staff and expertise in place to deal with multiple bug fixing played out under reddit conditions? The first month of this server will determine it's lifespan and success. As Roy Keane said 'Fail to prepare, prepare to fail'. If you see community response and bug fixing as a priority, tick this box.

PTE

Which stands for 'Progression Through Expansion' or in other words, after 16-18 months we get catapulted into The Burning Crusade either by choice (PvP) or by default (PvE). This in private server realms has never happened before and I think this is the very large Ace card the devs have burning in their back pocket. Let me put this into perspective for you.....to be truly Blizzlike you have to have PTE. We all went through this process in retail so why not do it in CF? Doing this potentially prolongs our involvement to multiple of years. 16-18 months to TBC, 16-18 months to WotLK and then if you have any sense you would stop right there but hey, sense can be in short demand. Just imagine this, the same players, the same friends/enemies/guilds, together for a decade or so. It's awesome, and it's awesome for this server only. Vote for the awesome.

COMMUNITY

Does exactly what it says on the can. Mostly on these forums. Enough said. Proud of being Crestfallen? Vote here....

 

JUST ABOUT EVERYTHING

So this is for the scrubs like me. On Nost, I could forgive the pathing in caves. I could forgive the DC on the boat to Feathermoon Isle. I could forgive the fact that you would end up 30' above the flightmaster on landing. What I couldn't forgive is that the fishing bobber wasn't working on 35% of the catches meaning you had to guess when the bobber worked. People like me are 'generalists'. It means that we are happy to work in buggy environments but certain things drive us over the edge. So it's that lack of testing that makes the difference between a great server and an also-ran. I talk about the weather in vanilla and people just don't get it. For people like me, having functional weather and fish bobbing is what will make this a proper emulator. But I can understand if others go meh. 

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

So go ahead and vote. Please be kind so that I can rewind the voting topics if you feel it doesn't include your own priorities

Edited by Outstanding
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I voted on the poll and thanks for the time you took to expand on each option.

I also think it's not a good quality poll sorry.

Some of the options are too specific, some of the options are too generic, there is really no reason not to pick "everything" (what does that even mean if I tick all the other boxes :P )

I also find a generic "population" metric to be utterly useless.

What matters is population per faction and timezone as well as faction balance with respect to the first two.

On retail we had regional servers, that's never the case with private servers and it is the main reason I'm happy Crestfall staff is considering doubling the blizz-like cap (from 2.5-3k to 5k - 6k)

Because then we have a chance (especially with china out of the picture for the main server) to have rolling blizzlike "full" pops for NA/AU and EU at different times in the day.

Edited by Roadblock
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I just voted for Community (cause i'll be happy to see some familiar faces when servers goes live, be it fighting at my side @Rhazjel or a alliance player fishing by my side @VeloxBanks

PTE, because...you know...YOU ARE NOT PREPARED (AEHOOOOO)... Population (because for almost every server, having a large constant pop means success) so I want CF to succeed.

Raid was voted, but not as a 'hardcore' raider. Since i'm newbie, I want to play 5man dungeons, quests, leveling, and later do some raids, because this is for me the 'end game' of WoW :P and I want to have fun doing them.

 

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What defines a servers success is its survivability and activity

  • 1,000+ population on both servers
  • Continuous and ongoing bug fixing
  • Regular and timely release of Content
  • stable and transparent funding
  • Releasing an expac

The last one is massive, I don't actually know of any major servers that have successfully released an expac. It would be the final and absolute indicator to the private server community that Crestfall is here to stay and the devs are competent.

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Community is the most important, population usually comes in from that if its good enough. With the cycle of new server announced > hype train > release > exodus, population will say something if its constant enough.

 

Edited by Adalon
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For me its Population, pathing and economy.
All that is very important =P
Most servers mess up pathing so i'm hoping Crestfall does good in that and ofc also economy.
The population will eventually build itself, not worried about that.

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I voted only population. 

If the pop is good, it leads to the rest being good. More motivation for devs to fix/produce content, more donations coming in, more staff volunteers, better community at all hours of the day for people in less populated timezones.

Basically if this server makes enough hype at launch to have a huge launch, and the server releases in a good enough state to keep those people, I see this being the new Nost. Except better because it isn't mangos.

Edited by Krueger
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Pretty much everything except expansion progression. Some people just want Vanilla, others want to play Vanilla through Wrath/Cata/MoP, others will just wait till TBC launches and start playing then... Yes, it does go towards the success of the server but it really kinda depends on which one of these groups are to be satisfied. Are the Vanilla only players to be satisfied? Are the ones that are thinking of playing Vanilla and then moving no further than TBC to be satisfied? Are the ones that are waiting for Cata to be satisfied? I guess what I'm trying to say is that no matter which of these ends up being the winner the "success" will still be there so long as they were the target audience. 

Apart from that I feel like everything else adds to the chance of success. Of course, PVP isn't anywhere near as important as a good population, a good community, economy etc. I still think that all of them are important to some degree. For me at least, it would be quite the kick in the kneecap to hear that CF will be having piss-easy raids and poorly scripted AVs even if it has a good pop and friendly community. Then again it would also be pretty bad if the pop and community were stank while the raids and PVP were scripted and balanced better than they've ever been in the history of Classic WoW. 

It's a hard question to answer. I suppose the best way to say is that (IMO) each of these things individualy don't do much. A server with perfect economy and lackluster end-game (PVE or PVP) is obviously bad, however, I'd argue that a server with excellent end-game and terrible community and pop also isn't good. They all need to be present together in order to form the perfect harmony. 

Again, this is just me. Thousands of people will be satisfied with a server just for it's functioning pathfinding. I guess I'm just a bit too pretentious.

TL;DR: Everything except progression. (IMO)

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Yea I agree. ^ Progression through expansions is the only one that definitely does not belong. Nost is still the most successful server, and it was only half of Vanilla. Plenty, maybe most, people would be just fine with only Vanilla and would still consider it a success.

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8 hours ago, Roadblock said:

I voted on the poll and thanks for the time you took to expand on each option.

I also think it's not a good quality poll sorry.

Some of the options are too specific, some of the options are too generic, there is really no reason not to pick "everything" (what does that even mean if I tick all the other boxes :P )

I also find a generic "population" metric to be utterly useless.

What matters is population per faction and timezone as well as faction balance with respect to the first two.

On retail we had regional servers, that's never the case with private servers and it is the main reason I'm happy Crestfall staff is considering doubling the blizz-like cap (from 2.5-3k to 5k - 6k)

Because then we have a chance (especially with china out of the picture for the main server) to have rolling blizzlike "full" pops for NA/AU and EU at different times in the day.

OK, I knew this poll was going to cause issues (hence the various caveats I put in the text).

So from my point of view, there are things you can account for, and things you can't. People have free choice on what faction they play on, hence population varies particularly PvE. I can' t see a way around that which doesn't cause enormous problems like forcing people to choose one faction.

On the other hand the timezone issue is a fair point. I'd imagine the devs #1 priority is for the server to be successful, that means taking the risk that the population will be too high for the PvP server at the start. Because the alternative being too small could be a realm killer. You only get one chance to get this right. The problem with this approach is when the population gets too high and you decide to launch a new realm what do you do? Do you launch another EU realm where the majority are playing, or roll the dice with a US realm and try and stick one in the eye of Blizzard.

I get the feeling this might be a nice problem to have.

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Population is literally the only thing that matters.

It could be the best scripted, perfect heaven of a server. If only 8 people play there, it's getting shut down.

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1 hour ago, Elicas said:

Population is literally the only thing that matters.

It could be the best scripted, perfect heaven of a server. If only 8 people play there, it's getting shut down.

I agree to some extent. What is populated are a subjekt view and i would never play on fenix quality even if it whas 10 k. I think pop is number 1 but like i said to some extent. For me populated are 1k on each fraction all day/hrs.

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2 hours ago, Elicas said:

Population is literally the only thing that matters.

It could be the best scripted, perfect heaven of a server. If only 8 people play there, it's getting shut down.

Well, it could also be a perfectly populated server with a wonderful community, but if it's shit scripted and bugged, it's still gonna suck.

So I guess one cannot go without the other. I might even prefer a perfectly scripted but poorly populated server. You can always try to hype it and get more people, but it is much less likely that you can change a popular shit server into a masterpiece.

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  1. Hype brings population.
  2. Quality / quick bug-fixing keeps population and grows it.

Else the caravan moves to the next "new" thing or gets turned off emulation entirely.

Hype can be from good PR, fortuitous timing, or good feedback from the development period; last kind is obviously preferable but it also creates high expectations and if the initial "product" doesn't live up it can deflate just as fast.

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Definition of success is not to rush the release, and wait till next year imo. The server is already hyped, and will just keep growing (Just look at how long people waited around for CC). So the population part is covered already. It will all come down to quality for Crestfall, I think focusing on getting the best product now is the only way to go and not give in to the urge of releasing to early. Also important to note is that Legion (no matter what we might think of it) did get alot of people back to check it out, even from pvt server community. This Legion crush will all calm down in a couple of months so again, no need to rush. This has the potential to be 'the' next thing :)

Edited by Sakritan
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22 minutes ago, Sakritan said:

Definition of success is not to rush the release, and wait till next year imo. The server is already hyped, and will just keep growing (Just look at how long people waited around for CC). So the population part is covered already. It will all come down to quality for Crestfall, I think focusing on getting the best product now is the only way to go and not give in to the urge of releasing to early. Also important to note is that Legion (no matter what we might think of it) did get alot of people back to check it out, even from pvt server community. This Legion crush will all calm down in a couple of months so again, no need to rush. This has the potential to be 'the' next thing :)

I'm fine with a release early next year.  I'll hopefully have more time then, and if it eases functionality and gives enough time for beta polish (class bugs, quest bugs, etc) and better transitions to BC and beyond, then take the extra few months and get it done.  I'm in no hurry.  I just want a good experience when the big day arrives.

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Some of them are technically the same if we generalize. Like pathing and bugfixing. Or you could say that pathing, along with PTE, is something extra. But the PTE is extreme extra, and so on.

To cut it short, inspired by me once spending a few years by watching a private server's inner peopleworks, I vote for everything.

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