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Ciar

PvP battleground queue system

45 posts in this topic
3 hours ago, Ciar said:

WSG and AV were open from release

For the sake of completeness you might want to edit this to: WSG and AV came with patch 1.5

Very informative post +1

I also agree on your two suggestions.

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1 hour ago, Frost said:

For the sake of completeness you might want to edit this to: WSG and AV came with patch 1.5

Very informative post +1

I also agree on your two suggestions.

edited; Somewhere along the lines my train of thought probably got mixed with the situation we had on Nostalrius instead of the actual Blizzard one, thanks for pointing it out.

Edited by Ciar
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2 hours ago, Ciar said:

edited; Somewhere along the lines my train of thought probably got mixed with the situation we had on Nostalrius instead of the actual Blizzard one, thanks for pointing it out.

Sorry for slightly off-topic question, but have there been any word from the staff as to when BGs will be made available?

Full Blizz-like, "semi-Blizz-like" like Nostalrius did, or something else?

Regading your suggestions, they both seem to be in favor of a more sane PvP environment so I guess I'd be in favor of them, even though I'm no ranking specialist.

Edited by Youfie
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This is what I found from a quick search through Darkrasp's posts, these are from july, keep in mind I literally looked at it for about 3 minutes so there might be stuff I missed9fe24b721faea898a13b60a245b1f985.png

aa4f07cc1acb4f0d9d82ec06b2600980.png

No clear timeline established on when the honor system would come into play either; I think the consensus was that it wasn't set in stone or anything. 

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Can't wait for a somewhat Blizzlike (tired of this phrase? Well, so am I, but it's the best we've got) PvP experience. It was just something else when AV & WSG hit on retail. The excitement, the pugs that are just horrible, facing some fuckwits premade and winning, having to solo heal Drek cause every other paladin is memespec... Oh god, release Crestfall please. Just recently quit Kronos because...well, it kind of explains itself... The state of the server is horrible. 

 

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This would do well i guess:

7 hours ago, Ciar said:

1. Deserter debuff (possibly longer than 15 minutes) on dropping queue, as in not joining the game when a game is opened, surely if you queued up to play a battleground you had the intention of joining the game and finishing it too and can wait the 15 minutes to queue again if you don't want to join the open game.

2. No multiqueue which allows you to join a new game from a game that is already open(WSG-->AB e.g.), never to be implemented since it will most likely lead to abuse.

 

Anyway abusing system leads to many funny paradoxes like i saw once in K2 when 60 "warlord" lols was killed easily by 57 guy in winterspring. It seems that this "pvp" guy was only used to farming honor against weak-geared pugs. And imo the differences in gear between people seriously raiding/pvping and 'normal' players who join for fun are much bigger even than between twinks and 'normal' players. Moreover twinks usually dont join in party cause on most servers lower brackets are far less populated so queuing in party would mean longer time waiting on average. Personally i think that removing possibility of joining together could possibly do but this would have obvious social drawbacks like friends, guidies couldnt play together or fucking up epic battles when both sides are really strong and one has bad luck of 1-2 'lows' joining so rather out of question. And ofc far away from being 'bliz-like'.

Premades are extremely powerfull and they work hard for the gear so they ll always win against pugs (MMORPGs are that kind of games that gives 'unfair' advantage to people spending much more time in em, so u either accept it or switch somewhere else:D).  But to maintain healthy pvp scene sth against abusing system like Ciar quoted suggestion above should be done. I would only give much longer penalty for leaving queue/bg and assure that matching players/partys is random! (premades shouldnt be penalized by only needing to play against other premades, neither they could be allowed to abuse system and play only against weakest pugs). That ll ensure fair progress taking into account earned gear, time spent in bgs and possibly even real skill :P cause to be absolutely in top premades ll need to win also with each other not just spend more time farming more pugs.

Summing up, im only 'normal' player (maybe except some twinks stuff:P) but that is what i think from my perspective. Hope that more smart heads on the subject (including devs) ll get to best solution (yea:x delegating responsibility;))

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1 hour ago, Blackrobe said:

Personally i think that removing possibility of joining together could possibly do but this would have obvious social drawbacks like friends, guidies couldnt play together or fucking up epic battles when both sides are really strong and one has bad luck of 1-2 'lows' joining so rather out of question. And ofc far away from being 'bliz-like'.

A big no-no in my book. An MMO is a social experience which also includes the option to queue with your friends, guild, premade etc. I should be able to create/join a group of likeminded/equally skilled players if I want to.

Edited by Frost
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Maybe they should allow to join as group but not as raid. This will allow friends and guildies to play together "dodging" the issue of the premades.

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Why are premades an issue? I get very easily frustrated when playing with randoms because 1) they're usually not very skilled players and 2) they fail to follow simple directions/tactics

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I agree especially with the 15 min deserter buff upon dropping que, +1.

Edited by Zecov
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Yeah PvP dodging-related issues are the #1 source of any drama on any vanilla pserver I've seen so far. In my opinion, the best solution would be to disable multiqueue and implementing a deserter penalty on queue drop for premades only. 

Premades that get stomped by other premades are much more likely to start dodging - it's as simple as one upset player out of 10 opening a second client, logging in on his level 1 opposite faction char and using /who. Not every solo pug player will do that for sure. Plus, if a premade dodges by leaving their BG and joining another through multiqueue, it will result in an empty 10-0 game, such a thing wouldn't happen in a prem vs pug game where pugs didn't queue at the same time. 

Sure, it'd be probably easier to impose such restrictions upon both premades and pugs, but then pugs would start whining on forums and, them being the majority, it would quickly lead to devs caving in and implementing some stupid change in attempt to fix things, see: Nostalrius' prem vs prem queue. 

Edited by Ghostly
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This is really good topic and hopefully some actions will be taken to prevent some of the issues that we've seen on other pvt servers. Kudos for the long OT! It was rather interesting read imo ^^

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13 hours ago, Ghostly said:

Yeah PvP dodging-related issues are the #1 source of any drama on any vanilla pserver I've seen so far. In my opinion, the best solution would be to disable multiqueue and implementing a deserter penalty on queue drop for premades only. 

 

I could get behind this suggestion to give the PUG-players some love. However, this is still exploitable in the sense that you could create empty games or at least games with a power balance tilted towards one side by holding the queue until the very end and then finally dropping it; resulting in a game where the other team might have 10 players, the other 5 or so, eventually it would fill up but it would affect the early stages of the match, giving the other team a huge advantage.

 

I hope we get to thoroughly test the queue system they are planning to implement so I can break the shit out of it : )

 

As for more drastic changes past the ones I suggested; I would be very wary on considering changes like '5man-queue only' before the 'deserter on dropping queue -change' has been tried, since as far as I know it has never been tried on a populated private server and it feels like, at least in theory, would fix most of the issues.

Edited by Ciar
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Well, the problem is: Ranking up to 14 is insane time-consuming, no fun at all and ironically the most efficient way to rank up is "avoiding PvP at all cost". 

Because of this, some guys will not be able to resist if there is a way to exploit the queue(s). Which is - to some extend - understandable. 

IMHO, it is almost impossible to risolve this technically due to ... the "human creativity" in finding a "shortcut". ;)

So I would like to suggest a more "social" approach:

  1. Set up clear rules which "behaviour" is considered to be ok and which is not.
  2. Implement an extensive logging of all BG/queues activities.
  3. Enforce rules consequently based on the evidence from the logs.
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^ Definitely, but I think there should be measures in place to reduce the possibility to exploit to a minimum AND have proper logging/GM hours dedicated to see if people are being scummy.

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WoT Trigger Warning:
This is for the people unfamiliar with the discusion. I won't actively add my (sophisticated) opinion to don't spoil the argument, also it's really easy to make out in my eyes.
(When you combine No Multique+Deserter for leaving a Queue)
These are the different type of players that will blow the discussion out of proportion (once the server is up and running):


1) The Prophet and his Disciples. Usually hardcore rankers& ex-rankers, which open these kind of threads.

These players understand the ways how the maximum amount of honor can be attained, since they deal with it on a daily basis.
- Every way that the system can be exploited, will be exploited. (loosely based on Murphy's Law) If you are competing with cheating sons of xxxxx,
with the massive time investment that you have during the pvp grind it will obviously drive you nuts. (Sleep deprivation makes you lose your temper even faster, hence the troll smells blood)
These players come in one of three categories.

1.1) The Idealist
The best team should be rewarded with the most honor/hour. This is his primary concern.

1.2) The Whiner/Rebell
 For multipile reasons this player is unsatisfied with the current situation. He generally doesn't have much of an idea of the big picture, but as long as he takes a shot against the system he's on.

1.3) The Racist
 We've all witnessed it. Premading leads to group dynamics and every closed society shuts itself off against their competition, which on an international server often comes with language barriers.
 One group will accuse the other of cheating just as easy as your mom is. (for the lack of a better similarity :D)
 (I'm still in favor in opening up the project to chinese players, if it doesn't impact the server stability)

2) The Casual that doesn't play in premades & doesn't want to play against them. (tends to be a forum post farmer, that has an opinion about everything)
 All that matters for this player is that he can queue up for some PvP to enjoy it for a relatively small timespan. He generally treats the hardcore rankers with disdain.
The common theme is to distrust any suggestion and highlight the negatives that come with it. Most often they lack the perception of the bigger picture.
Fast Queues - PuG vs PuG is all he wants, he even goes so far to suggest that premades should only play against each other. 

3) The System-Abuser, who is generally on edge to justify himself and not get banned.
 Gets shots from left and right, disliked by the primary pvp community. For the lack of options he resorts to exploit the system in a way that enables him to compete.

4) The Troll
 
Out for no good. Disregards any logical reasoning out to trigger everyone in his way. Easy prey in category 1).
Typical phrase:
- Hardcore Player X is  too bad at this game and just wants easy honor and farm pugs all day.

Variations of Queue Systems and mechanics:
 

Blizzlike:
Enabled Multiqueue - no Deserter for leaving a queue - switching a BG inside of it enabled.

Pros:
-Faster queues(only relevant to the more pvp active faction), since the amount of pvp players is artificially higher.
-Pugs can actively avoid(dodge) the premades by only playing the battleground that the strongest premade of their faction plays
- Bad premades will be treated like pugs and won't be avoided---> they get less honor.
- The best premade can choose to play what they want. - they get the most honor by far
 !Limited to one faction only, worst case scenario several premades are better than the entire opposing faction.!
Cons:
- if you don't actively dodge premades as a Pug, you will be fodder on almost every queue. 
- Bad Premades will decide to just queue for Warsong & AB, join the one where they don't have to play against another leaving the other game empty.
  --->Free wins for both, nobody plays. Wintrading yells intensify.

Critical Reception arguments:
- Encourages wintrading, effective honor farming w/o any effort. (1.1 - 1.2 - 1.3 - 2)
- Only getting farmed by premades (2)
- Insanely high caps, need to play all day, every week (1)
Supporters:
- It's Blizzlike and this is how it's supposed to be (2 - 3 - 4)
- I'm in the best Premade of this server and I'm also part of the faction with the longer(non-instant) queues.
 I join every game, I win every game. I get more honor than everyone else. System works. GG. (1.1)
- They are all bad and just want things for free. L2P ( (2) - 4) 

Custom Features:


premade vs premade priority queue

When queuing up for a game as a premade, you will be put into a seperate queue for a limited amount of time. In this time you  will only face premades of the opposing faction.

Pros:
- Pugs of one(!) faction(alliance in most cases) will be free of premades alltogether, but instead they will face much better players  - so they still lose.
- Pugs of the more active PvP faction will face less premades on quota and the games against opposing pugs, are sureshot wins.
Cons:
- The more active PvP faction can't make premades anymore to effectively gain honor or is limited in the amount of players that can group up, even if they are superior.
Reason 
Insanely long queue times stemming from:
If all opposing premades are ingame, they need to wait until they get into the regular queue. When they join the regular queue, they will be pushed into the last position. If they have a full group they either:
-Best Case(0.1%):
Fill out positions 0-10/0-15 and get the next game.
(They wait longer for the time that they are in a seperate queue, open to the devs)

Average Case& Worst Case(99.9%):
Fill out uneven positions so they have people in front of them and behind them that will first get a game. e.g. 3-13;13-23,23-33....
(They wait longer than pugs, for the amount of time the seperate queue takes + the time of 1-2 games to end)

This makes premading unattractive for regular(!) players that want to play fairly.
- Wintrading intensifies to its fullest. One premade from the active PvP faction opens free games for the opposing premade.(e.g. Queue with a full group only join with 3, get a fast loss&mark every 3min, usually tends to be more effective than sitting in a queue for 30min with a potential loss/long game against a premade)
- Effictively destroys the PvP Culture of the more active PvP faction(which tends to be Horde)
Critical Reception arguments:
- It's not Blizzlike. This is a Funserver. GG  RIP CRESTFALL. ( 1.2 - 2 - 4)
- Wintrade Paradise, we can't even keep up with these abuser kids, unless we premade ourselves 24h a day to outfarm pugs that maybe play 12h a day. (1)
- I lose every game that I queue up as a PuG.(less active pvp faction) (2)
Supporters:
- I win more games and have less queue times.(more active pvp faction) (2)
- You just want to farm pugs all day and get free honor. (2 - 4)

Disabled multiqueue: 
Pros:
-No effective way to dodge a game, unless you drop the queue before joining. Less incentive to wintrade.
Cons:
-Longer queue times.
Critical Reception arguments:
- It's not Blizzlike. This is a Funserver. GG  RIP CRESTFALL. ( 2 - 4)
- I face so much premades. This is no fun (2)
- You can still wintrade, just ghost the opposing faction and queue up when they are ingame.(less active pvp faction) (1 - 2)
Supporters:
- No reward for wintraders anymore. When you dodge a game, you get less honor than other/better premades. (1)
- The best premade gets the most honor. (1.1)

Deserter for leaving a queue
Pros:
- Even the less active faction can't effectively dodge premades anymore.(Combined with disabled mutltiqueue)
Cons:
- If you need to afk and miss the invite, you will be punished twice.
Critical reception arguments:
- It's not Blizzlike. This is a Funserver. GG  RIP CRESTFALL. ( 2 - 4)
- My connection is so unstable. I randomly disconnect sometimes and when I do I always get deserter :( (1-3) (can be bypassed with clever scripting at least for a limited amount of time)
Supporters:
- This is the best thing ever. (1-2)

So far Nuar

Edited by Nuar
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On 20/9/2016 at 11:15 AM, Ciar said:

1. Deserter debuff (possibly longer than 15 minutes) on dropping queue, as in not joining the game when a game is opened, surely if you queued up to play a battleground you had the intention of joining the game and finishing it too and can wait the 15 minutes to queue again if you don't want to join the open game.

2. No multiqueue which allows you to join a new game from a game that is already open(WSG-->AB e.g.), never to be implemented since it will most likely lead to abuse.

Strongly agree on this. Also a nice manageable post about something that many players might not completely understand how works. Well written Ciar +1

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On 9/20/2016 at 0:15 PM, Ciar said:

As for my personal opinions for the healthiest possible pvp community, some non-'Blizzlike' changes should be considered;

1. Deserter debuff (possibly longer than 15 minutes) on dropping queue, as in not joining the game when a game is opened, surely if you queued up to play a battleground you had the intention of joining the game and finishing it too and can wait the 15 minutes to queue again if you don't want to join the open game.

2. No multiqueue which allows you to join a new game from a game that is already open(WSG-->AB e.g.), never to be implemented since it will most likely lead to abuse.

This is probably the best solution. 

However, is it going to prevent PvP scene to die after a while ? Probably not.

1st Scenario - Horde has the best premade

Horde is going to have 20-40minute queues while Alliance has instant queues. For the argument's sake lets say Horde has the dominating premade.

Horde premade waits for 20-40minutes to win a game, meanwhile less powerful Alliance teams gets instant games %70 of the times playing vs pugs, %30 playing vs the dominating premade. Both sides are happy.

2nd Scenario - Alliance has the best premade

Alliance premade gets instant queues and wins %100 of the games without any issues. Meanwhile, horde cannot form any premades simply because it takes 20-40 minutes to get a game which is probably a lose.

So this scenario ends up with Horde players grinding BRM/Burning Steppes/Ungoro/Alliance Harbors etc. Account sharers takes over the Horde ranking scene since its all about time on horde this way.

 

What we are going to end up with is most likely the 2nd scenario, because PvPers do not want to wait 20-40minutes queues. Which is handing over Horde pvp to the chinese account sellers.

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Count me among those interested in a deserter debuff trial balloon, maybe during the beta phase to see what happens if people try to abuse it.  I'm more skeptical on the multiqueue/premade blocks I've seen floated because (as Nost proved) sometimes trying to make PvP a fairer experience ends up breaking it even more.  Aside from getting class abilities right, event/quest scripting right, and the instances tuned, this to me is the last big bugaboo.  I'm not likely to want to do beta testing because I don't really have the knowledge to be useful at it, but by all means, experiment with the queue systems for battlegrounds, let people who know the exploits do their worst, and see what happens.  That way a "least worst" model can be settled on before the battlegrounds and honor system go live, and everyone will know how it's going to work.  Should, in theory, reduce the drama.

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Please, @everyone, stop thinking you can "test" the queue-system during beta. That just won't happen...cause not enough players to do that.

 

This point aside, my suggestion is to remove group-queue/multi-queue all together.

...and don't pretend to know what will happen to the "farm" if you do that...cause it was never done before anywhere.

 

I really do NOT care about the 50/60 (on top of a 5.5k players) premaders (dodgers?). Why? Simple, because from ALL my past vanilla experience they were just dodgers.

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1 hour ago, mrmr said:

Please, @everyone, stop thinking you can "test" the queue-system during beta. That just won't happen...cause not enough players to do that.

 

This point aside, my suggestion is to remove group-queue/multi-queue all together.

...and don't pretend to know what will happen to the "farm" if you do that...cause it was never done before anywhere.

 

I really do NOT care about the 50/60 (on top of a 5.5k players) premaders (dodgers?). Why? Simple, because from ALL my past vanilla experience they were just dodgers.

Of course you can test the queue system during (open)beta if the staff allows it, you'd only need 30~ people for it tops to make a few demonstrations. Whether this will happen is totally up to the CF team.

It's already been pointed out how removing group-queue completely will not work, if you can provide a proper written, substantial argument weighing pros and cons for your suggestion, I'd be more inclined to give you a real response as to why it won't work, refuting the points you made.

Edited by Ciar
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On 11/18/2016 at 11:15 AM, Ciar said:

Of course you can test the queue system during (open)beta if the staff allows it, you'd only need 30~ people for it tops to make a few demonstrations. Whether this will happen is totally up to the CF team.

It's already been pointed out how removing group-queue completely will not work, if you can provide a proper written, substantial argument weighing pros and cons for your suggestion, I'd be more inclined to give you a real response as to why it won't work, refuting the points you made.

Testing a queue system meant for thousands of players with only "30" (like you say) won't give you any significant data.

Sure, you can test if it "works", but that's not the point...is it?

The real test will be when the whole PvP-scene will start using it...exposing its pros&cons.

 

Also, who told you that "removing group-queue completely will not work"? Whoever told you that has ZERO evidence about his/her/their claim just because, as I wrote, no-group-queue has never been implemented on any pserver before.

What we know, from REAL experience on ALL other vanilla pservers, is that group-queue (blizzlike) is "exploitable" and has been exploited on EVERY other vanilla pserver.

Now, this being my "substantial argument", I don't think you can deny that's the truth and what happened on ALL vanilla pservers out there.

 

....besides, I don't think that "Deserter DeBuff when you leave a queue" was ever implemented as well. It may work...it may not. For sure this system won't get rid of "premades" and by now we should all know that "premades" are the root of all PvP-Evil in the pserver scene (claim backed up by years&years of vanilla pservers examples).

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5 hours ago, mrmr said:

Testing a queue system meant for thousands of players with only "30" (like you say) won't give you any significant data.

Sure, you can test if it "works", but that's not the point...is it?

The real test will be when the whole PvP-scene will start using it...exposing its pros&cons.

 

1. Also, who told you that "removing group-queue completely will not work"? Whoever told you that has ZERO evidence about his/her/their claim just because, as I wrote, no-group-queue has never been implemented on any pserver before.

2. What we know, from REAL experience on ALL other vanilla pservers, is that group-queue (blizzlike) is "exploitable" and has been exploited on EVERY other vanilla pserver.

3. Now, this being my "substantial argument", I don't think you can deny that's the truth and what happened on ALL vanilla pservers out there.

 

....besides, I don't think that "Deserter DeBuff when you leave a queue" was ever implemented as well. It may work...it may not. For sure this system won't get rid of "premades" and by now we should all know that "premades" are the root of all PvP-Evil in the pserver scene (claim backed up by years&years of vanilla pservers examples).

The only thing you can test is how exploitable the system is, true. How it will be in action with a few thousand in the pool is something you can only make educated guesses on.

1. The reason why removing group-queue completely will not work is the fact that the game is based on building groups/friendships/guilds, it's the MMO part of the game. Yes, blizzlike group queue "sucks"(less so if the pvp population is healthy(unlike Kronos), but it still sucks when most of the players' mindset is to get as much honor as possible, they'll dodge etc.

No-one should be forced to play with Timmy dickhead and Donny the clueless, both of which are AFK in the graveyard since they don't feel like trying to win. (This is when you invite your friends to a group so you can start winning games and don't have to worry if timmy dickhead doesn't play. In no group-queue you'd either be stuck with the same guys afking and being useless until you decide to stop playing or they do - of course you might miss each other every now and then but they would still be in a good amount of matches you played, ruining the experience. - On Nost and Kronos you had loads of these kinds of people if you ever solo queued; not even all of them were of the east asian origin.)  - Before the counter-argument of "reporting the afk players to a GM" is presented, you could say the same about premade dodging etc; no private server I've played on so far has done anything substantial even after reports were made (Nost banned and unbanned the china wintraders for example, mostly gave warnings for being AFK leechers).

2+3. Yes, if by group queue you mean multi queue(where you can hop battlegrounds), it's very exploitable and there's the fixes I've presented (long deserter on dropping queue, masking game numbers, GM's actually caring about malicious activity that reduces everyone's experience(dodging) to name three.)

4. The sentence I highlighted in red for you is purely a personal opinion from your side and it's not a consensus reached among everyone, so better not make claims where you speak for everyone.

 

 

Also as an extra disclaimer, you won't get the same experience in PServers that you had in original vanilla; most players that queue up battlegrounds nowadays have a certain goal in mind (whether its the blue pvp set or something further, varies) - This is part in fact that a lot of people have figured out what they like and don't like, some of the players will only do pve etc, there's not so much random people hopping into battlegrounds "to have some fun" - of course this happens intermittently but it's not a constant.

And before you excuse me of being a "premader - ranker", yes I like playing premade v premade games since it's pretty much vanilla pvp at its finest (but it's also fun to hop into a WSG with maybe a group of 2-3 friends or even solo to try and do our best to win) and I will not rank on this server, probably any server - ever again. 

Edited by Ciar
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