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Ciar

PvP battleground queue system

41 posts in this topic

About "premades" being part of the BIGGER-PICTURE in the MMO-world I could agree.

Sure MMOs should be social-games and you should build strong bonds with your fellow players, but...and you already knew there was gonna be a butt, as I wrote and you colored it in RED, on every vanilla pserver to date the word "premade" is associated with "dodging/exploiting_the_system". Sadly, for all of us, this is not only my personal opinion, but a straight-fact.

I challenge you to name me a single vanilla server where premades&multi-queues were NOT exploited (hint: you can't name any).

 

About "Timmy dickhead" and "Donny the clueless", well, that would most likely balance out itself between factions...so both alliance AND horde will have these players (hell, I'm one of them...).

Yes, the " reporting the afk players to a GM" is the way to get rid of these. Seems like this project will "finally" deal with them...anyway I don't see this being a big issue...and besides, that would be pretty much "blizzlike" (dont' shoot me now).

 

Now, about your suggestions, while looking kinda sane....they would require some coding around. While I strongly believe Asura&Company could code these in a matter of days (hours?) maybe, instead of over-engineering the system, I still believe that simplify it would be much easier (aka, turnoff group-queue...queueing as party/raid).

Not only doing this would get rid of elitist-premades&elitist-premaders, but it would make the multi-queue-system kinda unexploitable.

 

Yes, for the sake of the 5.5k concurrent-players, slapping those 50/70 elitists wouldn't be that bad. I bet the remaining 99% would be glad about it....

 

 

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2 hours ago, mrmr said:

About "premades" being part of the BIGGER-PICTURE in the MMO-world I could agree.

1. Sure MMOs should be social-games and you should build strong bonds with your fellow players, but...and you already knew there was gonna be a butt, as I wrote and you colored it in RED, on every vanilla pserver to date the word "premade" is associated with "dodging/exploiting_the_system". Sadly, for all of us, this is not only my personal opinion, but a straight-fact.

I challenge you to name me a single vanilla server where premades&multi-queues were NOT exploited (hint: you can't name any).

 

2. About "Timmy dickhead" and "Donny the clueless", well, that would most likely balance out itself between factions...so both alliance AND horde will have these players (hell, I'm one of them...).

Yes, the " reporting the afk players to a GM" is the way to get rid of these. Seems like this project will "finally" deal with them...anyway I don't see this being a big issue...and besides, that would be pretty much "blizzlike" (dont' shoot me now).

 

3. Now, about your suggestions, while looking kinda sane....they would require some coding around. While I strongly believe Asura&Company could code these in a matter of days (hours?) maybe, instead of over-engineering the system, I still believe that simplify it would be much easier (aka, turnoff group-queue...queueing as party/raid).

3.5 Not only doing this would get rid of elitist-premades&elitist-premaders, but it would make the multi-queue-system kinda unexploitable.

 

4. Yes, for the sake of the 5.5k concurrent-players, slapping those 50/70 elitists wouldn't be that bad. I bet the remaining 99% would be glad about it....

 

 

1. Yeah, the default way of doing things will get exploited like I said earlier (which is why there has been multiple suggestions made to fix it). 

2. I suppose I don't need to remind you that I didn't have to play with Timmy and Donny on "retail blizzlike" if I didn't want to?

I'll draw the comparison to PvE, it's like making up a rule 'you're not allowed to make a guild and organize it so you clear content fast, you're forced to do it with random PUGs every week', how many people would play on a server such as this? - I know I wouldn't (Having to PUG in any PvE in fear of ban).
You're arguing you don't want to play against premades since it feels to you it makes your experience worse; well I'm sure you'll find plenty of people who have the same opinion of being forced to play with complete clueless randoms, at worst AFKing leechers makes their experience worse too. GM's would have to be really on-point (since most of these 'AFK offenses' happen fairly quickly) and doing that on a big server isn't easy - remains to be seen however.

3. To prevent abuse of the "solo-queue only system" you'd have to mask the game ID's anyway since the faction with faster queues could just drop queues until enough people from your team to make a meaningful impact (not more than 3-4 depending on class) would get in the same game and continue to roll through it; arguing that just disabling group queue would be no work at all is shortsighted and inherently wrong if you wished to balance this proposed system. 
Since it's a serious issue that affects game balance and the over all experience, hiding behind the "argument" of it 'taking too long' to do a proper fix (since the dev team has tackled way harder issues than masking game ID's or prolonging deserter etc) isn't really eligible since it will literally shape how the whole pvp community on the server will form.

3.5. You know what would really hurt the 'elitist-premaders'? - Forming a team of your own to beat them.. I guess we can only hope. 
Also, solo queue players definitely don't like losing games (who does right), if multi queue was left enabled, the losing team, regardless of solo queue or premade would hastily ditch the game they're about to lose if a new fresh game opened up, leading to empty games or games heavily tilted in favor of whichever side was winning, if even slightly.
Conclusion: Multiqueue is just bad in this implementation of the pvp reward system, it might work better in TBC onwards when the best pvp gear is EARNED in arenas. (Or should we make those skirmish only too so the best team(s) can't get highest ratings?)

4. Once again since this is your personal sentiment on the issue, it doesn't really hold much validity in the grand scale of things unless you manage to poll the entire population, you don't like grouping up to achieve things, fair enough; other people do. 
Also out of a concurrent population of 5.5k the people engaging in weekly pvp aka earning standings which is over 25 HKs a week is way less than 99% - a lot of people don't engage in pvp at all.

 

Keep in mind that if there are no teams dodging each other which is ideal and what to strive for, they'll also meet each other intermittently, resulting in long-ish games where all the PUG players get to fight each other in the games that open - premade free. This is also highly dependent on the amount of players queuing up for battlegrounds - if the pvp scene is healthy the PUGs won't suffer. Which is the reason heavy penalization (long deserter) for dropping queue is a way to either force the teams to get good and play each other or not be able to stomp pugs at least.

If there is only teams dodging, it's literally PUG-players being funneled into against premades every game, which was the case on Kronos at the latest (and during Nost when they broke the queue system).

Edited by Ciar
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Sorry, but how many "premades per factions" are we talking about?

Because I don't think there were ever more than a couple (per faction).

...if so and if the PvP scene is "sane", then, those premades will fight each other not that often...and probably they will still dodge the other premades, cause the deserter buff will be shorter than a 2h fight.

So, it would become Premade VS PUG all over again.

 

Different would be having the two realms fighting in the same "battlegroup" (maybe 3 realms...who knows?).

If that's the case, I've no issue with premades.

 

Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that the biggest PvP-playerbase majority will most likely play BGs as PUGs...and as you said...noone like losing.

Turning off group-queue, imo, will benefit (making them happier) way more players than keeping it on.

 

SIDE NOTE:

I like how all PvP players are all about "balance"...and if you try to balance out groups (with PUGs only) they rage like Chromaggus does.

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10 hours ago, mrmr said:

1. Sorry, but how many "premades per factions" are we talking about?

Because I don't think there were ever more than a couple (per faction).

...if so and if the PvP scene is "sane", then, those premades will fight each other not that often...and probably they will still dodge the other premades, cause the deserter buff will be shorter than a 2h fight.

So, it would become Premade VS PUG all over again.

 

Different would be having the two realms fighting in the same "battlegroup" (maybe 3 realms...who knows?).

If that's the case, I've no issue with premades.

 

2. Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that the biggest PvP-playerbase majority will most likely play BGs as PUGs...and as you said...noone like losing.

Turning off group-queue, imo, will benefit (making them happier) way more players than keeping it on.

 

SIDE NOTE:

I like how all PvP players are all about "balance"...and if you try to balance out groups (with PUGs only) they rage like Chromaggus does.

1. You'll have a few per faction, while they fight each other pugs get to play each other; you should read my posts before replying.
And by premades the opposite argument is usually referring to people who grind honor for ranks, if you're grinding honor for ranks you can't keep taking deserters, especially if the duration is longer. I doubt a lot of 2h fights will occur since AB has a time limit, WSG is the only battleground that could potentially last 2 hours (you don't play AV for honor) but if both premades are trying to get maximum honor/hour at some point one of the sides will concede if it truly is a stalemate. Based on this you cannot really extrapolate the situation into it becoming "premade vs PUG all over again".

2. If you're counting in everyone that gains a standing each week, you might be right and thats including the world pvpers - but to say that the majority who play BG:s goal-oriented (which is the blue set or past it) are PUGs is absurd since surely anyone who is familiar with how the honor system works (a lot are not, to be quite honest) would maximize their efforts by making at least a small group of people who can sway games in their favor.  As for the guys that like to hop on for a few games, they are in a bit of shit situation in the 'meta' present since everyone has figured out how the game works by now and quite often the pvp rewards on PServers are out/more powerful (the weapons were buffed in BWL patch, armor 1.11) than they were back in 2005/2006 which incentivizes people to gain rank to get the gear. However, changing the whole system to appease the lowest common denominator in this case is not the answer. 

I'll make a PvE comparison here to bring some depth to the argument, say for example I'm a PvP player, I hate pve since its boring, menial and the fights are always the same - I don't bother to tryhard in a guild to improve my dps numbers/efficiency BUT at the same time I start demanding that NO-ONE should have the chance to do PVE in the way they prefer, improving raid after raid and pushing their class to the max.
I'd get cussed out fairly fast if I made a suggestion like this - demanding that since I don't like pve, no-one should like pve and only do it in PUGs and with minimal effort.

 

SIDE NOTE:

"and if you try to balance out groups (with PUGs only) they rage like Chromaggus does" - It's not balanced since there's no guarantee that the opposing team will have the same amount of AFKers/clueless players as your own team. 

You also failed to address the point I made about the faction with faster queues dropping queues until they get enough of a stack of people in the same game.

If you're going for the 'subtle jabs' approach, I'll give you a not so subtle one: Your first post was decent but the ones after have been echo-chamber regurgitation with nothing new brought to the table yet I keep replying to humor you, but it's fairly obvious you won't change your mind on the matter. 

Edited by Ciar
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Obviously I won't change my mind on the matter.

In my experience (and not only mine) "premades" are a synonym of cheating and dodging. I've NEVER seen a vanilla PvP community where premaders fight each other (and I've seen quite a few of these "communities").

The only reason to create/run these premades, sadly, in the pserver community, is NOT playing PvP, but more grinding r13/r14 gear for PvE purposes.

 

Also, sorry, but you got the wrong angle about my stance. It's nothing about what I like or dislike, but more about what happens with premades.

Do you really think I wouldn't like getting my r13 gear dodging all day&night...well I would...and I did in the past. It's just not right and this is the reason because I'm advocating turning-off the group-queues.

 

2 hours ago, Ciar said:

If you're going for the 'subtle jabs' approach, I'll give you a not so subtle one: Your first post was decent but the ones after have been echo-chamber regurgitation with nothing new brought to the table yet I keep replying to humor you, but it's fairly obvious you won't change your mind on the matter. 

alright...so I'm going for the "subtle jabs" approach?

Sorry, but the one doing that is you. You're trying to tell us that "premades" are not the PvP-Evil...when we ALL know they are....when we ALL know those premades are dodging from the first vanilla pserver, just to grind their gear faster (wanna remind you that dodging is flat-out cheating).

Also, your "PvE comparisons" have no meaning at all. I'm not suggesting to disable group-queues because I don't like PvP or because I want to tell you ALL how you should play PvP. The only reason I'm suggesting this is because those group-queues are HIGHLY exploitable (they were, on ALL previous vanilla servers).

We're not discussing PvE here, but PvP and its inherited-cheatable-queue-system. Hell the thread topic is even: "PvP battleground queue system".

...also, if you notice, about "cheating PvE" I suggested more than once to fix the exploitable "stackable buffs". I even proposed to add some FIXED -30% debuff on everything, so that those tryhards (like you called them) would benefit less from that kind of cheating.

So, please, stop pretending to know what I like and what I dislike, cause you have no clue.

 

My suggestions are NOT about my personal gain, they are all about the well-being of the community as a whole.

I will never advocate anything that will benefit only a small fraction of the player base, like group-queues (PvP-side. Benefits for only 50/70 premaders) or infinite buff-stacking (PvE-side. Benefits these 3/4 tryhard guilds only).

Anyway, my suggestion is clear (disable group-queues), so I've no more reasons to reply to this thread (unless I get personal attacks).

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1 hour ago, mrmr said:

alright...so I'm going for the "subtle jabs" approach?

1. Sorry, but the one doing that is you. You're trying to tell us that "premades" are not the PvP-Evil...when we ALL know they are....when we ALL know those premades are dodging from the first vanilla pserver, just to grind their gear faster (wanna remind you that dodging is flat-out cheating).

Also, your "PvE comparisons" have no meaning at all. I'm not suggesting to disable group-queues because I don't like PvP or because I want to tell you ALL how you should play PvP. The only reason I'm suggesting this is because those group-queues are HIGHLY exploitable (they were, on ALL previous vanilla servers).

We're not discussing PvE here, but PvP and its inherited-cheatable-queue-system. Hell the thread topic is even: "PvP battleground queue system".

...also, if you notice, about "cheating PvE" I suggested more than once to fix the exploitable "stackable buffs". I even proposed to add some FIXED -30% debuff on everything, so that those tryhards (like you called them) would benefit less from that kind of cheating.

2. So, please, stop pretending to know what I like and what I dislike, cause you have no clue.

 

3. My suggestions are NOT about my personal gain, they are all about the well-being of the community as a whole.

I will never advocate anything that will benefit only a small fraction of the player base, like group-queues (PvP-side. Benefits for only 50/70 premaders) or infinite buff-stacking (PvE-side. Benefits these 3/4 tryhard guilds only).

Anyway, my suggestion is clear (disable group-queues), so I've no more reasons to reply to this thread (unless I get personal attacks).

1. When I talk about subtle jabs, I mean the last part of your post where you're talking about your view of 'balance' and how pvpers (nice way to generalize the whole community, buddy) won't like it.

When you say "we ALL know they are", it's mostly just you in this case since no-one else has stepped up to create a semi-cohesive argument on the matter. 
As for group queues being exploitable, I've agreed with it from the very first post - that's why there are changes proposed, good changes - non-drastic changes that don't change the whole game.
And the only reason I've brought up the PvE comparison is to show how ridiculous the argument of forcing everyone to solo queue in a COMPETITIVE environment is.

2. Not pretending to know what you like or dislike, just interpreting the opinion based on the few arguments you've presented here.

3. I don't think anyone's in this thread is since the server isn't up yet and there is no gain to be had - personally I've specified that I will not be ranking here so there's that.

so I've no more reasons to reply to this thread (unless I get personal attacks).  - There's no personal attacks here so far, just me refuting your points - no need to get heated over that.

 

Have a good day!

Edited by Ciar
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I mostly don't PvP organized or otherwise so (1) my opinion is irrelevant (2) might need help understanding the argument.

Any insight I have on the matter comes from this 2006 Interview with a High Warlord.

Especially gems like this (Frybread is asking the questions, others are High Warlords answering)

Quote

Frybread: Is there anything you’d change with the PvP system?
Medeve whispers: more BGs, no DKs.
Bosco whispers: dk's should change.
Kaliko whispers: yea.. honestly would like to see World PVP.. and with the rank system it is fucked up haha.. it's basically who has no life contest and/or who can get botted the most.
Kaliko whispers: what i do is not PvP. It is cp farming
Frybread: How do you differentiate PvP from cp farming?
Kaliko whispers: PVP is when you play against other guilds and all those things.. and cp farming is basically finding the most efficient way on getting as much cp in the amount of time you have.
Frybread: So you're playing a system rather than players?
Kaliko whispers: yup, people need to understand that to get high warlord you are competing against your own team (horde in my case), not the alliance.

Is it fair to say that the basics of the system haven't changed?

Is the main issue people using "out of game" tricks (like communicating cross-faction on voip) or in other ways trying to "game the system"?

The way I see it the challenge is to propose in-game measures (as that is the only domain that the admins eventually have some control over)

that make avoiding PvP punishing and / or make engaging in PvP preferable.

Have any things been proposed that could help avoid collusion? Either with other teams of the same faction or cross-faction.

What are the main ways that same faction premades use to game the system?

What are the main ways cross-faction premades use to game the system?

 

I'm not personally invested but it seems an interesting problem in game theory. :P (math)

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29 minutes ago, Roadblock said:

I mostly don't PvP organized or otherwise so (1) my opinion is irrelevant (2) might need help understanding the argument.

Any insight I have on the matter comes from this 2006 Interview with a High Warlord.

Especially gems like this (Frybread is asking the questions, others are High Warlords answering)

Is it fair to say that the basics of the system haven't changed?

Is the main issue people using "out of game" tricks (like communicating cross-faction on voip) or in other ways trying to "game the system"?

The way I see it the challenge is to propose in-game measures (as that is the only domain that the admins eventually have some control over)

that make avoiding PvP punishing and / or make engaging in PvP preferable.

Have any things been proposed that could help avoid collusion? Either with other teams of the same faction or cross-faction.

What are the main ways that same faction premades use to game the system?

What are the main ways cross-faction premades use to game the system?

 

I'm not personally invested but it seems an interesting problem in game theory. :P (math)

The interview is interesting, I've read it before too.
I'd say the main issue is premade teams not wanting to face each other since effectively it is a waste of CP(contribution points) per hour - referred by most as honor since it's easier to understand - honor = CP. (It's referenced a few times in this http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Honor_system_(pre-2.0) article, albeit its wowwiki it can give you a pretty good overview of how the system works, no misinformation there that I could find.)
And yes, the basics of the system haven't changed, your biggest opponent are the people on your faction since you compete against them for the top standings but there are a few things done differently now than back then (organized CP stacking at the end of the week is much more precise and controlled - as opposed to what it used to be.)
Where as out of game tricks such as VOIP/DM sometimes come into play, it's also simply a matter of the queue system flaws (multi queue) and using multiple accounts (a lot of people didn't have these back in vanilla due to subscription) to spy the enemy team - when the enemy team gets into a game and you get a new game opened too; you can determine with fair certainty it's them and if you don't want to/can't face them you drop the queue, this is where the problems start.

 

And you are right in your assumption that it's hard to propose in-game measures that work well to try to fix scummy behaviour. 

If you read the first page, mine and Nuar's post you'll get a really good but brief overview of the situation - proposals to fix it.
Main ways the cross-faction premades abuse I'd say is using multiple accounts/streams/out of game communication to spy for the enemy team and dropping queues so you can fight PUGs instead of an actual match, resulting in PUGs getting slaughtered and the scummy premades (!This is not all of them, just the ones I'm basing the example on!) never facing each other.
Same faction premades cannot do much to game the system in itself, unless they are win trading/or dodging with the opposing faction to get ahead of their same faction competitors. Reason being for that is the most efficient premade will come out on top in the end for the standings - aka who can stay on the longest with highest efficiency (ideally this would mean they are the dominant group, being able to beat all the opposing premades). The only thing that determines the standings are the amount of contribution points you have before the server reset and the amount of players who have acquired 25HKs or more aka the pvp pool, this is what the standings calculations are based on and how many bracket spots there is etc.

 

If you're talking game theory you could sort of think of it as a prisoner's dilemma where the choice is either to play fair and square "A", face all opponents etc or be a scumbag and dodge games/abuse the queue system's flaws "B" - BUT the actual 'prisoners' making the decision to be scumbags (as in making the decision to defect - in game theory terms) don't suffer, it's everyone else involved aka the PUGs, the third party so to speak. And since we're talking efficiency, if group 1 decides to go for B, group 2 also has to go for B to keep up as per the rules of the game even if there is a more ideal end result available - result A where no-one dodges and mostly everyone is happy.

^ I know it's bit of a flawed example but since you brought game theory up at least I had to try :)

Edited by Ciar
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I think what most are finally starting to realize is that the Vanilla PvP system was immensely flawed lol. There is a reason Blizzard did away with it quickly, put in many changes, and cut a lot of things in the process. 

So many people are against using Blizzard changes, but not everything they did was bad. This is just going to come down to whether we want a "fixed" Vanilla WoW or a "Blizzlike" Vanilla WoW.

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10 hours ago, Knetik said:

I think what most are finally starting to realize is that the Vanilla PvP system was immensely flawed lol. There is a reason Blizzard did away with it quickly, put in many changes, and cut a lot of things in the process. 

So many people are against using Blizzard changes, but not everything they did was bad. This is just going to come down to whether we want a "fixed" Vanilla WoW or a "Blizzlike" Vanilla WoW.

100% Blizzlike is a bit broken, changing it around too much might make it even more broken.  One or two small changes that make the system harder to game would be worth considering in this instance, I think, but any changes considered should be tested and discussed thoroughly before the honor system goes live, so that people can decide what to do.  The amount of drama that can come from this is huge because of the amount of time some people will put into it.

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Do we have any information about the standpoint of the GM team admins in this topic?

Edited by beerforce
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1 hour ago, beerforce said:

Do we have any information about the standpoint of the GM team in this topic?

Yes, we still don't know what their opinion on this is.

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You don't need a response from the GM team, they don't set server rules or make decisions, they implement and follow the rules.

You need a response from an admin. That is unlikely to be forthcoming until closer to release.

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10 minutes ago, Elicas said:

You don't need a response from the GM team, they don't set server rules or make decisions, they implement and follow the rules.

You need a response from an admin. That is unlikely to be forthcoming until closer to release.

I was fully sarcastic. :D

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48 minutes ago, Elicas said:

You don't need a response from the GM team, they don't set server rules or make decisions, they implement and follow the rules.

You need a response from an admin. That is unlikely to be forthcoming until closer to release.

Thank you for correcting me, I edited my question to clear it for everybody.

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10 hours ago, dailybs said:

I was fully sarcastic. :D

Ah, it's impossible to tell sometimes with text! :)

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