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Outstanding

First Guilds on Crestfall

70 posts in this topic

It *might* appear to be a little presumptuous of me to start a thread on future guilds that will not be active realm wise for a good few months, but as most of us know, a good guild is as rare as hens teeth. Most of us will have been in crap, mediocre, average, good and excellent guilds. We can usually define what made them good, bad or indifferent. The purpose of this thread therefore, is to focus peoples' minds on the process that is required to set the good and excellent ones up.

On the assumption that we have two realms to begin with, PvE and PvP, we can define guilds roughly into the following categories:

  • Raiding Guilds - I've never been part of a vanilla raiding guild. Biggest was about 25-30 full core members and we mostly did Karazhan. But plain 'ol vanilla needs lots of players with end raiding comprising of 40 member groups, and the further you go, the more hard-core they need to be. Therefore these will represent the biggest guilds on either server, with a plethora of additional members that are more casual raiders or just like the cachet of being in a hardcore guild. These guilds typically have well-run websites/forums and strict rules on VoIP, macros, add-ons, UI interface, loot rules, behaviour guidelines. They usually require enormous resources in disposable items like potions, food, oils which are resourced in-guild or through the AH. Typically, the professionalism in running these guilds requires an excellent management team, and the fact that all these (people) resources are hard to come by makes these guilds, and their potential fall-outs an all-consuming affair. I don't see much difference between Raiding Guilds on PvP and PvE bar the spectacular fireworks that break out on the PvP servers when two such guilds just happen to arrive at the same instance at the same time. Funny for some....
  • PvP Guilds - Again, something I don't have a lot of experience in, but not that difficult to understand. For PvP guilds to focus is very much on world PvP and battlegrounds. Quite a few of them will specialise in twinking with high level toons giving run throughs for lower level toons to enable boss loot acquisition. A large membership base is not essential but can be required in battlegrounds like Alterac Valley and also in world PvP. Having a website and a forum would not be considered essential as most of requirements can be catered online. Still, having a common VoIP and add-on pool as well as a hub to coordinate and encourage members to communicate and cooperate can make social media essential.
  • Leveling Guilds - I find these guilds to be pretty unworkable unless you have an end gameplan. In theory, having lots of friendly players level together to get through elite or gathering quests seems a no-brainer. It also allows people to get to know each other and there style of playing pretty quickly over multiple levels. It makes instances a breeze in getting the numbers together. Over time high level toons can end up escorting low level ones to get through instances and tough elite quests and assist on power-leveling. They tend to be pretty big and pretty casual with a high-turnover rate. The issue I have with these guilds is what happens when people have finished leveling up all the toons they are prepared to commit to? Getting to L60 vanilla is very much like hitting a wall. Unless you have a plan you can get bored and restless pretty quickly. Having a good guild with a plan helps as it gives a sense of purpose. So what has happened in the past is that a leveling guild will transform to a raiding guild over a period of time, and sometimes this can make a very good guild indeed as the relationships and understanding is already there.
  • Social Guilds - Just as it says, these guilds are there, particularly in vanilla as it such a long, hard slog, to keep people sane when they are hunting for that last article needed to complete a quest, or grinding for Felcloth, or killing their 1256th Bloodsail Buccaneer for a Hyacinth Macaw. You need a fun guild with people on at different times, with different personalities and by God, a sense of humour, irony and sarcasm to make the whole thing bearable and fun. Social guilds can be run as professionally as raiding guilds or as loose and fast as leveling guilds. It doesn't really matter. Of all the guilds, I think social ones best represent the entire community playing this game as well....a game. Social guilds can raid and pvp like any other guild but don't take themselves too seriously.
  • RL Guilds - In this we usually have a bunch of real life friends who use WoW as an extension of their friendships. This is particularly pertinent if like me, the friends you grew up with playing WoW can now be found in other countries. Typically a social guild and with small numbers, they tend to level multiple characters and all the max/min match depending on any instance they do. Speaking from experience, RL guilds can slot into larger guilds for the big raids but with the qualification that they have usually picked up a lot of bad habits along the way.
  • All of the above - Of course there are lots of guilds that are hybrids of the above, or that evolve or regress as time and members dictate. There are no hard and fast rules.

So going back on topic, it occurs to me that it might be a good time for people to start thinking about what kind of guild we want to be in on the Crestfall realms, rather than making that decision when they start playing. Time is money, friend. As this may be the nth time you've leveled and after Nost/Kronus the romance is wearing thin, maybe we all need a plan on what we role up, what we do in the guild, and how we maximise the time spent. It is all about the journey, but that journey has been done so many times.

So I would invite those of you interested in forming and running a guild, no matter what flavour, to come forward over the next few months and put your pitch in. Would it not be a good thing is we had a couple of months put in to a website, a forum, a members list and a plan?

 

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I'll probably be bringing 4-6 RL buddies of mine to play on Crestfall and we'll probably start a guild together.  Of course half a dozen people does not, a guild make, so we'll probably look to recruit a few folks into our ragtag group.  We'll never be a hardcore anything guild.  Myself and a couple others have raiding experience from Onyxia through Arthas but I don't have the time or energy to manage and organize a 40 man raid and track DKP and whatnot.  

 

I'm going to want to raid at some point though so a crossroads will come.  Either make friends with another raiding guild or merge down the line.  Time will tell.  I'm just excited that this server is happening.  

 

So yeah I clearly slot into the RL Guild subset.  Although I had something like six max level characters when I quit (bit of an alt a holic) so yeah.  I've the heart of an undead warlock though. 

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I'm looking forward to seeing if I could cut it in a Raiding Guild. I never had the opportunity to join one in retail. What I like about these guilds on this server is that everyone's going to be leveling together for a bit. I'm interested to see the progression of guilds through the content.

Naturally you're going to experience splinters off of the social/leveling guilds into raiding guilds and what not.

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1 hour ago, Gruff said:

I'm looking forward to seeing if I could cut it in a Raiding Guild. I never had the opportunity to join one in retail. What I like about these guilds on this server is that everyone's going to be leveling together for a bit. I'm interested to see the progression of guilds through the content.

Naturally you're going to experience splinters off of the social/leveling guilds into raiding guilds and what not.

99% of being in a raiding guild is showing up prepared and following instructions.  Come with your potions, stat food, resist gear, and be on time and you're already better than most haha.  

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Do you like grinding?  Can you follow orders?  Are you willing to research fights/specs before raid?  Are you punctual? Congrats, you can be a raider!  I always hated those people who didnt do anything and showed up wanting everything handed to them, but they had great dps so keep em on >.>

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I was a pretty serious raider on Vanilla retail (mage).  Went from being in a relatively casual guild, worked my way up to raid leader in that guild, and then joined hardcore raiding guilds in TBC and Wrath (Lots of server firsts, and for a short time in WotLK, #2 US on Wowjutsu, before I quit the game between Ulduar and ToC.  I remember the exact minute I cancelled my subscription, but that's a story for another day).  So I've raided with some pretty great players, some pretty bad players, egomaniacs, drunks, and everything inbetween.  The truth is that many raid encounters have a large margin for error, to the point that spec is often irrelevant for DPS.  You could have 20 good raiders carry 20 bad ones all the way through BWL and partway into AQ before you started hitting a skill wall, and very late AQ or early Naxx before you hit any real DPS checks where spec and buffs matter a great deal.  In most cases, the best raiders weren't the ones who were the best tanks, best healers, and highest DPS (although they were certainly appreciated), it was the ones who showed up on time, brought their own consumables, got their buffs out before a boss fight without being told, and most importantly, most most most importantly, not going AFK for extended periods of time and making 39 other people sit around twiddling their thumbs waiting for them.

After those basic things, especially for DPS, it was a matter hitting "1" as often as possible while not letting yourself die.  That meant bandaging yourself, using potions or other consumables as necessary, and not standing where you aren't supposed to stand.  Do that, weave in a bunch of "1" presses, and you're a great DPS raider.  Shocking how simple it is, really.

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3 hours ago, Darkrasp said:

I was a pretty serious raider on Vanilla retail (mage).  Went from being in a relatively casual guild, worked my way up to raid leader in that guild, and then joined hardcore raiding guilds in TBC and Wrath (Lots of server firsts, and for a short time in WotLK, #2 US on Wowjutsu, before I quit the game between Ulduar and ToC.  I remember the exact minute I cancelled my subscription, but that's a story for another day).  So I've raided with some pretty great players, some pretty bad players, egomaniacs, drunks, and everything inbetween.  The truth is that many raid encounters have a large margin for error, to the point that spec is often irrelevant for DPS.  You could have 20 good raiders carry 20 bad ones all the way through BWL and partway into AQ before you started hitting a skill wall, and very late AQ or early Naxx before you hit any real DPS checks where spec and buffs matter a great deal.  In most cases, the best raiders weren't the ones who were the best tanks, best healers, and highest DPS (although they were certainly appreciated), it was the ones who showed up on time, brought their own consumables, got their buffs out before a boss fight without being told, and most importantly, most most most importantly, not going AFK for extended periods of time and making 39 other people sit around twiddling their thumbs waiting for them.

After those basic things, especially for DPS, it was a matter hitting "1" as often as possible while not letting yourself die.  That meant bandaging yourself, using potions or other consumables as necessary, and not standing where you aren't supposed to stand.  Do that, weave in a bunch of "1" presses, and you're a great DPS raider.  Shocking how simple it is, really.

Quoted for truth.

There are only three things needed for a stable Vanilla raid guild to progress deep into AQ40/Naxx;

  1. 30+ raiders who are reasonably competent with raid consumables.
  2. Solid Guild management.
  3. Gear.

Was part of Final Equilibrium on Aggramar EU, we could down half a dozen bosses in Naxx with 20-30 players on farm nights in order to give our main progression night more time. 30 solid raiders is all you need really. With a handful of socials on the roster, 45-50 players is more than enough for a raid guild. Split Onyxia/MC/BWL into two 20-25 man raids to maximise drop coverage on farm nights , then it's only 3 nights of serious raiding a week. 1 night in AQ, 2 nights in Naxx, unless you can down the easier bosses like we did on farm nights and then you only need 1 night for Naxx as well.

You don't even need people to be super serious about specs. Retribution Paladins, Elemental Shamans, Druid tanks, they're all usable through the entirety of Vanilla and are perfectly viable as long as the player;

  1. Understands the class and knows how to play it.
  2. Brings the right consumables.

Literally the only specs in the game that have no raiding value at all are Arcane Mage, Survival Hunter and Protection Paladin.

Solid guild management is probably the most important part of being a successful raiding guild. While raid leading for a casual guild on Kronos I was regularly putting in an extra 10-15 hours a week outside of the game. This would include;

  • Loot Council management.
  • Recruitment.
  • Getting people to sign up for raid nights so we could plan which raids we could do.
  • Recruitment.
  • Tailoring raid strategies to who we had signed for each raid.
  • Recruitment.

The roster boss is going to kick your ass. Especially if you play Alliance. One of the most important classes for Alliance is Paladin, you only want one Ret per raid, Prot is worthless as a raid spec, and Holy is boring as sin. We lost more than 12 raid geared Holy Paladins in 4 months on Kronos from people who had simply got tired of playing the class. Constant, unending recruitment of competent and solid players is the overwhelming theme of raiding Vanilla. This applies to everyone. When my guild collapsed on Kronos due to lack of raiders, we had server peaks of ~900 and the guild with every single server first kill from MC/Ony/BWL was still recruiting 5 raiders, including a couple of dps! It's really tough to keep a raid team together in Vanilla.

Gear is the last point for raiding Vanilla. Many later bosses in AQ and Naxx are simple gear checks. Healers need X amount of mana and regen. Tanks need X health and TPS. DPS need X average DPS. Most don't require skill per se, just the right amount of gear. If you don't get the drops, you wont succeed. 30 Onyxia kills on Kronos and we only got a single T2 warrior helm, DE'd more than 10 hunter helms. RNG can really fuck with you here, since there is no tokens and no catch up gear. Guilds who have a MT with Thunderfury will on the whole do better than those who don't, they can start dpsing earlier, dps harder, and use more cooldowns than those who don't have such a well geared MT. It's simply the way this game works.

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Well said.  We were pretty fortunate in our loot distribution, but like I said, I was in a pretty casual guild in Vanilla, so we only managed to get Twin Emps and Razuvious down before TBC dropped.  Even then, we didn't bother with Molten Core anymore at all.  We did a 90 minute BWL run, then straight into AQ.  Onyxia and Molten Core were things we just let people make their own run for in their spare time if they wanted to for alts or rep, but we didn't run it on raid nights (only raided 2 nights with that guild).

I didn't find recruitment was that big a deal in Vanilla.  We'd largely have the same people every week.  As long a they were getting gear occasionally, they'd stick around.  Raiding was literally the only way to get gear.  There were no shortage of willing raiders, especially once your guild was cruising through BWL and epics were coming fast and furious.

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2 hours ago, Darkrasp said:

Well said.  We were pretty fortunate in our loot distribution, but like I said, I was in a pretty casual guild in Vanilla, so we only managed to get Twin Emps and Razuvious down before TBC dropped.  Even then, we didn't bother with Molten Core anymore at all.  We did a 90 minute BWL run, then straight into AQ.  Onyxia and Molten Core were things we just let people make their own run for in their spare time if they wanted to for alts or rep, but we didn't run it on raid nights (only raided 2 nights with that guild).

I didn't find recruitment was that big a deal in Vanilla.  We'd largely have the same people every week.  As long a they were getting gear occasionally, they'd stick around.  Raiding was literally the only way to get gear.  There were no shortage of willing raiders, especially once your guild was cruising through BWL and epics were coming fast and furious.

Retail Vanilla we only had issues recruiting when we needed extra, geared tanks for 4 Horsemen. Then the top end guilds literally cannibalized each other.

My comments on constant drop off and recruitment was talking more about experiences of recent private servers. With the lack of cost, my experience is it is easy for people to pick up a new server, but equally easy for them to put it down and walk away.

We had a geared holy paladin literally walk away from Kronos when he didn't win a T2 drop, logged off in a huff and just never came back. People just didn't walk away from their accounts in retail when they were paying for them back in the day.

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As a raider ( I did not raid vanilla but have raided in TBC and other games) my biggest draw was a fair loot council ( if it was loot council), other raiders caring as much as I and raid leader who could lead.  For god sakes if you are a raider, let someone know you won't be on.  Its nice to know as the sub and as the leader.  I'm imagining its a bit different trying to manage 40 ppl as opposed to 25 (or 10 if you play ffxiv).  I always hated when some fights you need 2 tanks, and other you need 4.  Being benched because that fight doesnt require you is pure suckage.

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17 minutes ago, Masterfyoog said:

As a raider ( I did not raid vanilla but have raided in TBC and other games) my biggest draw was a fair loot council ( if it was loot council), other raiders caring as much as I and raid leader who could lead.  For god sakes if you are a raider, let someone know you won't be on.  Its nice to know as the sub and as the leader.  I'm imagining its a bit different trying to manage 40 ppl as opposed to 25 (or 10 if you play ffxiv).  I always hated when some fights you need 2 tanks, and other you need 4.  Being benched because that fight doesnt require you is pure suckage.

I know it's somewhat controversial, but I consider dual spec one of the very best quality of life changes Blizzard ever made. I'd be wholeheartedly happy to see it in Vanilla/TBC legacy servers.

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Just now, Elicas said:

I know it's somewhat controversial, but I consider dual spec one of the very best quality of life changes Blizzard ever made. I'd be wholeheartedly happy to see it in Vanilla/TBC legacy servers.

I wouldn't. Gold was rare once upon a time for a reason. Removing what happens to be somewhat of a gold sink seems dumb to me for something that is made to be difficult. Sure, it's not a lot of gold, but it did require some farming for people, making people more willing to go out to grind/farm, instead of sitting AFK in Org 90% of the time they're online.

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Just now, Elicas said:

I know it's somewhat controversial, but I consider dual spec one of the very best quality of life changes Blizzard ever made. I'd be wholeheartedly happy to see it in Vanilla/TBC legacy servers.

I LOVED rift's take on classes.  You could have 5 specs at any one time.  If I were tank healing I was one spec, aoe healing I was another, a heal dps hybrid another, pure dps good to go, off tank... why not.  You could also do it on the fly, only bad thing is you held many pieces of gear.  You weren't stuck to one job and could flex through the dungeon.  You were never useless.   Too bad the scrapped that.

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4 minutes ago, Asura said:

I wouldn't. Gold was rare once upon a time for a reason. Removing what happens to be somewhat of a gold sink seems dumb to me for something that is made to be difficult. Sure, it's not a lot of gold, but it did require some farming for people, making people more willing to go out to grind/farm, instead of sitting AFK in Org 90% of the time they're online.

In my experience of other private servers it didn't encourage people to go out and grind more to respec/etc, it merely made them not do the secondary activity. Less people queueing for PvP on nosts PvE server, less tanks available because the druid doesn't want to respec from Resto to do a 5 man, no kings available in the raid because the Holy Paladin dropped 31 points in Holy for Shock and 11 points into Ret for SoC so they can farm without needing to respec each week. Etc. etc.

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I'd probably fit into the social guild category myself, because while I liked raiding fine when I got to it in Cata (not LFR, that' doesn't count obviously, didn't start playing until late Wrath) I had more fun drinking and being sociable with people I liked even when we only managed to kill half the bosses in a run.  Dungeon crawls with friends are the best, frankly.  Not the pressure or time constraints of raids but enough challenge to keep things interesting.  I'd love to raid vanilla because I never got the chance, but I expect it to take a good long while before I have toons with the gear and consumables to do it.  I'm not in a hurry to do anything.  Going 1000mph through the content just to get into arguments about gear and who isn't pulling their weight isn't my bag.  I'm gonna take it slow, on a version of the game that has an ending. 

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On 5/3/2016 at 4:39 PM, Elicas said:

We had a geared holy paladin literally walk away from Kronos when he didn't win a T2 drop, logged off in a huff and just never came back. People just didn't walk away from their accounts in retail when they were paying for them back in the day.

I think you're raising a very interesting point there Elicas. We can go back re-creating vanilla but life has moved on and people have a lot more choices for time sinks that might well be  are certain to be more enjoyable that vanilla. So I'm guessing finding a good guild with 'we're in this to the finish' players is going to prove next to impossible for a full raiding guilds. Hence the reason for this post topic. People should be thinking about putting the foundations down now with the members that are here. Later in the year as we get closer to launch the bandwagon merchants will be trolling along.....   

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11 hours ago, Outstanding said:

I think you're raising a very interesting point there Elicas. We can go back re-creating vanilla but life has moved on and people have a lot more choices for time sinks that might well be  are certain to be more enjoyable that vanilla. So I'm guessing finding a good guild with 'we're in this to the finish' players is going to prove next to impossible for a full raiding guilds. Hence the reason for this post topic. People should be thinking about putting the foundations down now with the members that are here. Later in the year as we get closer to launch the bandwagon merchants will be trolling along.....   

It's one of the reasons I believe that Hybrids have a place in raiding. I'd rather have a Ret/Enhance/Boomkin that is going to show up with 100% raid attendance and stay with the guild from MC->Naxx than a Rogue doing 5x the dps who causes bad blood over weapon drops and finally quits in AQ40 because he's bored of raiding.

Pserver Vanilla is truly a case of bring the player not the class, within reason. Until AQ40 you can make almost any composition of healer/dps work.

Edited by Elicas
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I'll be in any guild that'll help me to get Scarab Lord :p.

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4 hours ago, Elicas said:

It's one of the reasons I believe that Hybrids have a place in raiding. I'd rather have a Ret/Enhance/Boomkin that is going to show up with 100% raid attendance and stay with the guild from MC->Naxx than a Rogue doing 5x the dps who causes bad blood over weapon drops and finally quits in AQ40 because he's bored of raiding.

Pserver Vanilla is truly a case of bring the player not the class, within reason. Until AQ40 you can make almost any composition of healer/dps work.

I completely agree with your statement. Here is my problem though. 10 years ago I had all the free time in the world and could have raided 7 days a week but my guild only used Fri/Sat/Sun. Now I'm married with a kid on the way plus factor in all other facets of life. My free time for wow has dwindled down but does that mean I shouldn't get a raid spot on the nights that I can attend?

Let's say you have a competent player that has preraid bis all enchants and consumables but can only attend raids 50% or less. Would you take competent over someone that sucks but shows up 100% of the time? 

I can honestly see both sides of this and why someone would bring either player. I guess I am just curious to see what others think. 

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Well, in my old guild back in the day..

Guild bank paid for selected tanks + selected healers for respecs just in order to keep them happy. Of course you really had to prove yourself to be worthy for treatment like that.

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3 hours ago, TheToeKnee said:

I completely agree with your statement. Here is my problem though. 10 years ago I had all the free time in the world and could have raided 7 days a week but my guild only used Fri/Sat/Sun. Now I'm married with a kid on the way plus factor in all other facets of life. My free time for wow has dwindled down but does that mean I shouldn't get a raid spot on the nights that I can attend?

Let's say you have a competent player that has preraid bis all enchants and consumables but can only attend raids 50% or less. Would you take competent over someone that sucks but shows up 100% of the time? 

I can honestly see both sides of this and why someone would bring either player. I guess I am just curious to see what others think. 

Not long ago on Kronos we benched out best Rogue because he wasn't sure if he could make a raid or not and wouldn't sign the event calendar. We took a Ret pally is his spot. When the Rogue did log on and demanded 'his' spot as best dps we left him out, he rage quit the guild, and we did the raid without noticing his dps even being missing. An extra 6 seconds needed on a kill isn't really that noticeable, unless you're just about scraping the kills by the skin of your teeth with just a couple of raiders left alive. In those situations, there's more that you can improve as a raid instead of dropping a couple of Hybrids to bring 'pure' dpsers.

Funnily enough he joined Vanguard (servers number 2 guild), where he was benched for not being up to standard and then rage quit the server entirely.

Any guild not pushing for server first kills has room for 3-4 hybrids, even in Naxx.

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15 minutes ago, Elicas said:

Not long ago on Kronos we benched out best Rogue because he wasn't sure if he could make a raid or not and wouldn't sign the event calendar. We took a Ret pally is his spot. When the Rogue did log on and demanded 'his' spot as best dps we left him out, he rage quit the guild, and we did the raid without noticing his dps even being missing. An extra 6 seconds needed on a kill isn't really that noticeable, unless you're just about scraping the kills by the skin of your teeth with just a couple of raiders left alive. In those situations, there's more that you can improve as a raid instead of dropping a couple of Hybrids to bring 'pure' dpsers.

Funnily enough he joined Vanguard (servers number 2 guild), where he was benched for not being up to standard and then rage quit the server entirely.

Any guild not pushing for server first kills has room for 3-4 hybrids, even in Naxx.

I know you want ret paladin to be viable but you are taking this hybrid promotion way over the top xD

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We brought a boomkin with us for everything after BWL.  Stuff it in a group with four fire mages and just watch those epic ignite stacks roll.

Brought a feral too, and stuffed in in the rogue/fury warrior group.  Ferals make decent offtanks when required as well.

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24 minutes ago, jonu said:

I know you want ret paladin to be viable but you are taking this hybrid promotion way over the top xD

I've regularly cleared the first half a dozen bosses in Naxx with 28-34 people. Hybrids are an easy way to fill raid spots.

I'll point out though, that I've never promoted taking a hybrid over a pure unless the hybrid is more reliable than the pure.

Also; I play Shaman more than I play Ret. My Shaman post is still being formatted though :P

1 minute ago, Darkrasp said:

We brought a boomkin with us for everything after BWL.  Stuff it in a group with four fire mages and just watch those epic ignite stacks roll.

I've seen Prot pallies tanking in Naxx and Boomkins are a regular sight in pretty much every raid guild. So many people under-estimate what a Hybrid can bring.

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Prot war here, I was main tank in my guild from tbc to early cata( got 2 rf's in ulduar). Never raided in vanilla, I reached lvl 56 when tbc released so I haven't raided any of this content when it was the real deal. I'm looking for some serious raiding guild , don't mind rolling alliance or horde . So if someone is thinking about making one hit me up.

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