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Elicas

Ret Paladin in 1.12.1 (PvE)

50 posts in this topic

Removed in protest of the LGN 2.0

Edited by Elicas
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I could argue about Feral druids bringing more to raids than Rets. 

Ferals seem to bring slightly better DPS/iLevel ratio and they also bring stuff into raids with skills such as innervate, and crit aura. Along with those there is off-tanking which is better than Ret afaik. Ferals also bring decurse + abolish poison and can also do some support healing if needed.

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I do not see ret paladins doing equal dps to an arms warrior, especially in T2.5 and higher; gear scaling for warriors and fire mages are the highest in the game because of rage mechanics and ignite stacking respectively, however for warriors their rage eventually caps out, and it caps out sooner(and actually does, I think) for them

arms warriors not only have whirlwind and mortal strike(effectively an extra hit every 4 seconds and some extra damage), but they have slam, pummel(5 more dmg than hamstring), hamstring(can proc sword spec wf hoj crusader weapon proc), cleave, and heroic strike too, as well as sword spec, deep wounds, and impale

however mortal strike takes up a debuff slot, in which case I'd imagine ret paladins would do more dps if the arms warrior doesn't use mortal strike

also, don't underestimate slam, even on a 2h fury warrior, who can lower it to a 1.1 or 1.0 second cast time

 

also, concerning what jonu said, feral druids have better gear scaling than ret paladins because cat druids get 2.4 ap per strength and 1 ap per agility, and get just as much crit from agil as ret paladins do, and they also get an extra combo point when they crit with a move that generates combo points, and on top of all of that, they also deal 10% extra physical damage and get clearcasting procs

also, its 1 crit per 20 agil, not 19 agil, this is before factoring in kings

Edited by Aquane
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I leveled pala to 51 on nost and then I gave up. The need to run to every mob and wait for aa , oh god I don't even know how I made it to 51 . Got respect for you just for the patience to level it :P.

Edited by Ramsay
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10 hours ago, jonu said:

I could argue about Feral druids bringing more to raids than Rets. 

Ferals seem to bring slightly better DPS/iLevel ratio and they also bring stuff into raids with skills such as innervate, and crit aura. Along with those there is off-tanking which is better than Ret afaik. Ferals also bring decurse + abolish poison and can also do some support healing if needed.

Ferals have a slightly higher dps/ilvl ratio until T2.5 is obtainable, where Paladins see a significant jump over them. Off tanking depends on the gear being used. A Feral off tank is better than a Ret off tank when both in dps gear, when both in tanking gear a Ret is the safer option. Ferals cannot reach the def cap in vanilla, and will start getting merked in BWL and beyond within seconds. We actually used a Feral (Claun, Invictus) as our 4th tank from the first day in MC until the guild collapsed working on Nefarian. By the time we were into BWL we was trying out strategies to do things with 3 tanks instead of 4 while recruiting another warrior, since he was getting wasted.

A Ret with proper consumable usage and buffs also brings Decurse, Poison and Disease curing in one button in the form of Cleanse. That leaves a feral bringing a combat rez, 3% melee crit to 5 people and Innervate. I'd argue that is about on par with the wipe protection DI provides, as well as all the various Greater Blessings and Auras Paladins can provide. Ferals are undoubtedly easier to do dps with however, as they are not quite so RNG dependent.

9 hours ago, Aquane said:

I do not see ret paladins doing equal dps to an arms warrior, especially in T2.5 and higher; gear scaling for warriors and fire mages are the highest in the game because of rage mechanics and ignite stacking respectively, however for warriors their rage eventually caps out, and it caps out sooner(and actually does, I think) for them

arms warriors not only have whirlwind and mortal strike(effectively an extra hit every 4 seconds and some extra damage), but they have slam, pummel(5 more dmg than hamstring), hamstring(can proc sword spec wf hoj crusader weapon proc), cleave, and heroic strike too, as well as sword spec, deep wounds, and impale

however mortal strike takes up a debuff slot, in which case I'd imagine ret paladins would do more dps if the arms warrior doesn't use mortal strike

also, don't underestimate slam, even on a 2h fury warrior, who can lower it to a 1.1 or 1.0 second cast time

 

also, concerning what jonu said, feral druids have better gear scaling than ret paladins because cat druids get 2.4 ap per strength and 1 ap per agility, and get just as much crit from agil as ret paladins do, and they also get an extra combo point when they crit with a move that generates combo points, and on top of all of that, they also deal 10% extra physical damage and get clearcasting procs

also, its 1 crit per 20 agil, not 19 agil, this is before factoring in kings

I suppose it depends on how you look at the make up of a raid. Speaking as a raid leader, when we're already over budget on debuff slots, I'd rather bring a Paladin with one judgement than an Arms Warrior with 2+. Bearing in mind all the Fury Warriors and Tanks will be constantly cycling Deep Wounds on the Target, adding MS (most bosses/trash can't heal anyway) and yet another DW to the list isn't doing us many favours. This is especially true for Paladins going the high spellpower Consecrate route as they judge Wisdom, benefiting the raid in very low gear situations where the healers/casters can wand for regen, as well as in high progression content where you need healer teams switching for mana conservation, allowing the 'off' team to regen via wanding. A Warrior also brings little to the raid in the form of utility. In nearly all situations, an extra decurse/cure/abolish, Aura, and full set of Greater Blessings would be of more benefit to the raid than another DPS.

While Fury Warriors are undoubtedly the kings of DPS when they have the full scaling of Naxx upon them, Arms warriors have a huge barren spot of hardly any upgrades from the initial pre-raid crafted BiS items like Lionheart Helm which won't be replaced for a very long time, essentially putting them high at the start of MC, falling away throughout BWL and AQ40, before picking up again in Naxx. This happens somewhat less to Fury Warriors (who scale better and have better weapon choices) but significantly impacts Arms warrior.

Thanks for catching the agi/crit bit though.

9 hours ago, Ramsay said:

I leveled pala to 51 on nost and then I gave up. The need to run to every mob and wait for aa , oh god I don't even know how I made it to 51 . Got respect for you just for the patience to level it :P.

Lol thanks :P

Edited by Elicas
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3 hours ago, Dawnstorm said:

You're my hero for championing this spec.

It's a spec that can be viable, that's for certain. The general problem is, viable doesn't necessarily mean 'top of the dps meter' and it also doesn't mean bringing 6 Ret paladins is viable, especially with the fact that so many Ret paladins in Vanilla don't use consumables properly, don't gear properly, and generally seem to assume the class works like it does in later expansions.

I'm hesitant to say I champion the spec. I champion the spec being played by good players, a bad Ret is pretty much worse than any other dps class being played badly.

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Just added this to the main post;

An expansion for DPS numbers. Taking the very top dps of the four whack-a-mole bosses in BWL (the Drake Pinatas and Broodlord) for each class and calculating the % of damage they do. I'm using numbers from Kronos, since a; they're readily available and b; that's the big Vanilla server at the moment. Bear in mind the section at the start discussing bugs on Kronos at the moment, Paladins are definitely at a disadvantage there currently. The highest DPS will be considered '100%', with each class calculated as a percentage of that, rounding decimals down to the nearest whole point. This gives a percentage of maximum possible dps that class is doing, which will show you all the Hybrids within 10% or so of each other in terms of total dps. I'll then do one final calculation; dividing the total dps of each class by its ilvl to give it a 'per ilvl dps rating'. This is especially useful for Paladins in this area, as their 'BiS item list' is quite significantly under ilvl of most of classes in T2.

One final note on this, the top feral druid on Kronos is a guy called Tf. He regularly does 100+ more dps than other druids on nearly every boss with ~5-6 less average ilvl. The guy is just that good, and it throws some of the list out of whack. On Ebonroc the top three Paladins beat the second druid. On Firemaw the top Paladin beats the second druid, the second Paladin beats the third druid. This is a repeated pattern on nearly every boss in every raid on Kronos, with some quite significant Paladin bugs in evidence there.

Broodlord Lashlayer (adds) (Tank Swapping, Trap evading, Fire Aura, Threat Management, 3rd boss BWL)

Druid: 668 ilvl 62 53.48% 10.77
Hunter: 1016 ilvl 71 81.34% 14.30
Mage: 1007 ilvl 71 80.62% 14.18
Paladin: 700 ilvl 66 56.04% 10.60
Priest: 702 ilvl 67 56.20% 10.47
Rogue: 1249 ilvl 75 100% 16.65
Shaman: 707 ilvl 66 56.60% 10.71
Warlock: 900 ilvl 70 72.05% 12.85
Warrior: 1209 ilvl 68 96.79 17.77

Firemaw (Fire Aura, Stacking Fire Debuff, LoS mechanics, 4th boss BWL)

Druid: 762 ilvl 62 53.36% 12.29
Hunter: 838 ilvl 73 58.68% 11.47
Mage: 892 ilvl 73 62.46% 12.21
Paladin: 602 ilvl 66 42.15% 9.12
Priest: 647 ilvl 68 45.30% 9.51
Rogue: 1067 ilvl 73 74.71% 14.61
Shaman: 681 ilvl 67 47.68% 10.16
Warlock: 929 ilvl 72 65.05% 12.90
Warrior: 1428 ilvl 70 100% 20.40

Ebonroc (Self healing drake, 5th boss BWL)

Druid: 741 ilvl 62 53.00% 11.95
Hunter: 960 ilvl 74 68.66% 12.97
Mage: 1011 ilvl 71 72.31% 14.23
Paladin: 644 ilvl 68 46.06% 9.47
Priest: 685 ilvl 68 48.99% 10.07
Rogue: 1177 ilvl 71 84.19% 16.57
Shaman: 635 ilvl 67 45.42% 9.47
Warlock: 982 ilvl 66 70.24 14.87
Warrior: 1398 ilvl 71 100% 19.69

Flamegor (Enrage Fire Aura, 6th boss BWL)

Druid: 711 ilvl 62 47.24% 11.46
Hunter: 901 ilvl 74 59.86% 12.17
Mage: 849 ilvl 68 56.41% 12.48
Paladin: 551 ilvl 68 36.61% 8.10
Priest: 680 ilvl 67 45.18% 10.14
Rogue: 1146 ilvl 74 76.14% 15.48
Shaman: 605 ilvl 69 40.19% 8.76
Warlock: 920 ilvl 73 61.12 12.60
Warrior: 1505 ilvl 71 100% 21.19

I think this really helps illustrate not just the difficulty in gearing Paladins, who consistently have one of the lowest recorded ilvl scores across all the classes across all the bosses, but that even on a realm where they have significant bugs like Kronos that they are within 5-10% of all the other hybrids, with the exception being the wild overscaling of fury warriors. Taking it literally, Warlocks best score here is 72.05% of the damage done, Mage 80.62%, Hunter 81.34%, would we really suggest dropping all those classes because they are 20-30% behind a warrior, sometimes while out gearing them, and significantly outgearing many hybrids who struggle to find good gear until the T2.5 sets.

As I stated before, a well geared Paladin in properly itemized gear can be viable. The same as any class or spec in Vanilla. Shaman dps isn't a rare sight, Shadow Priests aren't rare, Feral/Boomkin Druids aren't rare. We're far from being the worst DPS spec in the game as the rumours like to say. A dedicated, properly specced, properly set up Ret with proper consumable use can be a boon to any raid team.

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Ah, a fellow Quixote of the Light.  I actually started a pally on Nost with the idea of tanking, thinking MAYBE I could do it on alt runs once I'd scraped together enough gear from healing first.  Even that's a stretch.  I tried to do the math on hitting defense cap plus fire resist plus stamina benchmark of 4.5k unbuffed thinking "Ok, this is a starter of what I MIGHT need to not die against Raggy" and man, unless you slapped together a set of random pieces of Dark Iron crafted gear, one or two things from ZG, and stuff warriors pass on in AQ there's just no hope.  The math was cruel, and this was back of a napkin stuff.  The itemization just isn't there for it.

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3 hours ago, Humperdink said:

Ah, a fellow Quixote of the Light.  I actually started a pally on Nost with the idea of tanking, thinking MAYBE I could do it on alt runs once I'd scraped together enough gear from healing first.  Even that's a stretch.  I tried to do the math on hitting defense cap plus fire resist plus stamina benchmark of 4.5k unbuffed thinking "Ok, this is a starter of what I MIGHT need to not die against Raggy" and man, unless you slapped together a set of random pieces of Dark Iron crafted gear, one or two things from ZG, and stuff warriors pass on in AQ there's just no hope.  The math was cruel, and this was back of a napkin stuff.  The itemization just isn't there for it.

The blue set from Scholo remains BiS for pallies right into Naxx. I've tanked some ZG/AQ20 and trash in BWL, but otherwise stick to tanking 5 mans. While technically speaking you could probably tank all the content that doesn't require a taunt outside of Naxx, it just isn't worth the hassle.

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Greetings Elicas you explained very well everything.

I just have some notes you might get them because i see you as person that have good knowledge regarding Paladins.

1- Everyone talks about Seal of Righteousness scale 10% which is not completely true , it is just leaked from Websites and copy from very old sources like 1.5 Patch.

In reality Seal of Righteousness scale with Weapon Min/MAx damage coefficient + Weapon Speed coefficient.

Look at this Video from 2006 and see how much Seal of Righteousness damage is doing for certain level "9" .

He does much higher damage that it is present in every single privacy server, that is because JoC didn't increase it's damage by 10% but it increased much higher than everyone think.

I already leaked some information from Blizzard Forums Archive where there was rumors via "Hotfixes" which are also not mentioned in any "wowwiki" website or Theorycraft sites.

SoR basically double the "SP" Coefficient each 1.0 Weapon Speed. And this is why in privacy servers you read "Tooltip" and damge 3 and 4 with "JoC" while in the Video you see this guy is doing 7 and sometime 6 damage which is more than all those 10% calculations.

Other thing is the "Attack Power" have extremely low role in increasing SoR damage something like 0.001* Coefficient.

 

2nd Note is the Tanking Part.

Speaking about Retribution Paladin is not the same as Protection Paladin so you can't compare Retribution with Tanking because here is what Protection Paladin can Tank:

This is me from Feenix Tanking as Protection Spec (confirming that is Viable)  :

10644632_10152378146495418_6010913965579

 

10661930_10152381277015418_8988045747656

 

10629260_10152396585210418_3243957038861

 

10633189_10152399822770418_1310966322561

10733811_10152415996125418_1852085113251

 

 

 

 

 

Now Speaking about Retribution Paladin DPS you are completely correct but sadly you are doomed to fail in the hands of Elitists that believe in "Min/Max" .

Speaking about Retri DPS this is what i have achieved in "Bugged privacy servers" which in retail i would far more than i did because my abilities would work.

Speced properly in Deep Retri with all the Bugs that servers have and with all the Geared people competing with:

11130438_10152798333065418_6130555566748

 

12038921_10153124953800418_5569873667449

11000123_10152792774100418_7439880591633

Now let me show you the Archive that Realmplayers deleted.

I was mostly and still i am pro "Far right" oriented Prot/Retri Paladin and the reason why i got so many haters , the reason why my Realmplayers is deleted is because the Admin from "Realmplayers" was hardcore player in "Feenix" and he hated me the most because i was /flex and exposing how good Prot/Retri Paladins are. This guy decide to delete my Archive because he was Jerk that hate me 100% and he hate with his bones non Holy Paladin Players.

But i was wise enough to prevent his "hiding" so each time i create good score i was screenshot and put in my Facebook Archive.

Here is what Retribution Paladin (with 5 Blue items which is under and very low Ilvl, with Weapon which is under standard quality, with 3x only T2.5 Gear and rest T2 and lower) on very Bugged server that has also role in reducing our damage , here is what i did with all the Barriers :

/Keep in mind that this was all deleted because i was preforming extremely well and because Administrator hated me the most because i was Pro Paladin Ret/Prot Oriented:

This screenshot where i Achieved highest DPS number when i was able to free full DPS: (the Warriors are High End Geared Maximum compared to my "Semi T2 more or less Gear with some Blues on me") Which mean i would do more than that if i had Gear Quality like them or even Close to them.

12028658_10153121700085418_8954548310914

 

This is High End Boss with my DPS compare to every Retribution Paladin that exist in overall Privacy Servers regardless of their Gear (there are Paladins with very high end gear compare to my semi gear)

10557728_10152950544230418_5607269554225

This is 1 Target Boss where i never ever Touch "Dogs" so there was no cheating at all. (with my semi Gear compare to all Paladins including those with very High End).

11402588_10152935382195418_6315922105776

 

Here is the 2 Screenshot because i can't post the whole picture at once : With all the Bugs that exist holding down our DPS, with all the Barriers , with the Semi Gear i managed to get 29# Overall Classes DPS compare to Non Bugged Classes and High End Very Geared people.

11406130_10152932399100418_1056641490756

11235067_10152932399105418_3703336878177

 

This was to prove that you are correct if people know how to play Paladin are Viable same as any other Class but sadly this is not the only case.

What concerns me regarding Paladins in every single Privacy Server and i am kinda fed up with that is this :

Common Sense Bugs that all Privacy Servers issue :

1- Seal of Command Scale with Sp.
2- Seal of Righteousness chance to Variate Damage per Swing .
3- One-Handed Weapon Spec increasing Seal of Righteousness Damage.
4- Seal of Righteousness suppose to be Separate Attack.
5- Mobs should not generate Aggro by Healers during CC and keep previous threat until CC break.
6- Judgement of Command Scale with SP
7- Sanctity Aura working.
8- Holy Resistance should not exist or it should be everywhere 0. (0 means unaffected unless "Boss with 24") but it should never "Full Resist" and is only Non Binary "Partial" 25/50/75% (level based).
9- Seal of Righteousness Scaling coefficient info and does it suit with Retail Version? not just the 10% (from 2006).

Those are most important for Prot/Retri and i am sick and tired of seeing those never working properly in all Servers..

And last thing to answer from Owner Poster:

The secret of Paladin DPS is none of those that you mention: (similar to but not completely)

Gear like an Arms Warrior, focussing on auto attack damage, bonus swings, slow attack speeds and SoC procs.
Gear like a melee caster, focussing on spell power and mana regen.

The secret of the Preform i did was : Hybrid Gearing that consist "All Stats".

Example using "Paladin Sets" because they give you at the same time "Intellect+Str+SP" which all combined gives you very good results compare to "Str" or "Int with SP" only.

This is what way i was doing :

"My opinion about crit is to get Soft Cap 36%" where 6% is by Consumes/Buffs etc and 30% by Stats/Enchants.

Head,Shoulders,Chest,Wrist,Gloves,Belt,Legs,Feets should always have stats that consist : Int+SP+Str   (SP Ratio toward Str is 2 : 1.5) in Damage "Balanced Gear" using All Abilities so it is 2+1.5 while full "Str or SP" is 3 Ratio which is under 2 + 1.5 (3.5) regarding Scale.

Neck,Fingers,Cloak usual don't exist with the Paladin Suitable "All Stats" so there i recommend using them for taking Hit Cap , 5% from Gear + 3% from Talents. (or soft cap 4% from Gear) it is still Viable.

Weapon as always Strongest and Slowest so this gives Tremendous Advantage toward Seal of Command and Average DPS compare to SoR .

 

 

Greetings by Killerduki .

Edited by Killerduki
some extra info
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@Killerduki

Thanks for signing up and participating in this forum. Between you and @Elicas I'm sure you can work together to get your points across. As stated, the developers are very keen to fix known bugs, some of these bugs are poorly understood and some people aren't even aware of at all. Let's keep tabs on this and see what progresses.

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1 minute ago, Outstanding said:

@Killerduki

Thanks for signing up and participating in this forum. Between you and @Elicas I'm sure you can work together to get your points across. As stated, the developers are very keen to fix known bugs, some of these bugs are poorly understood and some people aren't even aware of at all. Let's keep tabs on this and see what progresses.

Thanks for Answer, Paladin Bugs are complicated because they are affected in strange ways , not like other Classes. For Example Seal of Command is : Magical Melee Attack where it can Dodge/Parry/Block and "Partial Resist" .  And there is no other Classes that have this kind of complicated Abilities.

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@Killerduki Hell of a post mate.

Unfortunately, I'm not in the beta yet and I am unable to confirm/deny the status of the usual Paladin MangOs bugs. I'm hopeful that many of them wont be present or needing to be fixed, since this is not a Mangos server. That does mean there might be bugs we aren't used to however, stuff that is fixed in Mangos and not fixed here, or some combination thereof.

The only people who can really help us at the moment is @Darkrasp & co, who have been very open towards fixing all bugs, not just the ones in the classes they like/play. I'm very confident this is not going to be another project ruined by an 'Athairne-like' who intentionally leaves bugs in classes he dislikes just to screw them.

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Might be worth having a mod scrub these replies into a "Paladin bug discussion" thread just to keep things neat and tidy in this class sub-forum.

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I've moved posts which discuss Paladin bugs to a separate thread here. Please use that for bugs in the future, as this is a Retribution Paladin Guide - not a place to discuss bugs. Thank you for understanding! :)

I've left the posts which have input regarding Paladins. Future bugreports you should do once the beta starts, not whilst it's in Closed Alpha - and if you're in the Closed Alpha we encourage you to use our issue tracker. :)

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I have almost exclusively played a Warlock character on Vanilla retail and private servers, but am seriously considering going the Paladin route once Crestfall opens. I'm nervous about just being a healbot for raids though. How steep is the learning curve for tanking and/or retribution, and can someone who has no real experience with the Vanilla paladin reasonably expect to be able to pick up the nuances of these specs, given that they seemingly aren't as forgiving to mistakes as Warrior tanks and other dps classes?

Edited by shadesofjoe
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Paladin tanking has one of the hardest learning curves in the game. It isn't difficult per se, but knowing what to do for each mob without the taunt get out of jail free card is certainly intense for newcomers.

Ret DPS is kind of forgiving, in that there isn't any really complex rotation or priority system to follow, but at the same time it isn't forgiving, in that you need to be great to get viable DPS. A bad ret is awful, an excellent Ret is merely good. It also depends on your play style, since in can be relatively inactive.

Certainly fun though.

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is elicas actually the 250 dps single target BWL bis geared ret paladin legend Holystrike from nost?

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In my short experience as a Ret pally in Nostalrius I saw something extrange in my opinion. Was it normal that I could score a white hit while getting missed, dodged, blocked or parried the yellow hit from SoC proc?

Hope this isn't too much of a noob question :$

Edited by Toche
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2 hours ago, Mecher said:

is elicas actually the 250 dps single target BWL bis geared ret paladin legend Holystrike from nost?

Played a Druid on the PvE server, not sure who he is, sorry.

15 minutes ago, Toche said:

In my short experience as a Ret pally in Nostalrius I saw something extrange in my opinion. Was it normal that I could score a white hit while getting missed, dodged, blocked or parried the yellow hit from SoC proc?

Hope this isn't too much of a noob question :$

It's treated as two separate attacks in the combat calculations, just because your white hit hits doesn't guarantee the SoC will.

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"More dps than a Balance Druid"

I challange thee! 

Edited by Thomaszine
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Challenge away! There is a lack of Boomkin posts in the Druid forum in general to be honest. Good to see one about.

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On 2016-05-03 at 9:50 PM, Elicas said:

Retribution Paladin 1.12.1 (PvE)


Ret Paladin in PvE? Doesn't work I hear you say. Worst DPS in the game. Beaten by pures. Hard to gear. You're only there to bring Nightfall.
 
Not quite.
 
The first thing to have in mind when talking about Ret is; what bugs does the private server have? All of the recent popular vanilla servers have had bugged Paladin mechanics, usually due to Ret being seen as the red headed step child of the DPS family. Because, for many people, it “shouldn't” be competitive, bugs with Ret are usually pushed far down the queue for fixes. A quick idea of recent bugs;
 
Feenix – Seal of Command, Judgement of Command and Hammer of Wrath not receiving the 10% damage bonus from Sanctity Aura.
Nostalrius – Seal of Command not receiving the 10% damage bonus from Sanctity Aura.
Kronos – Uses the wrong hit & resist tables for Seal of Command and Holy Damage in general. In 0.9 Holy resistance on mobs was replaced with Arcane resistance, meaning SoC should never be able to be resisted. It uses the melee hit table, meaning it can be dodged/parried/missed. Seal of the Crusader is currently not taking peoples damage buffs into account when reducing peoples white swing damage.
 
As you can see, Ret bugs are par for the course on all current 1.12.1 Vanilla private servers. There are more, but I picked the most important.
 

Another bug on Nostl (maby more for tankadins) is that consecration scaled with AP and it should scale with spelldmg. 
if i read this correct it should be like this: https://vanilla-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?issue=2384

Just wonder if its correct.

Edited by Sherekhan
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Yup, that came up in the replies Rooted scrubbed from the thread for being off topic, things got a bit heated at one point.

Edit: Try not to quote a whole long topic like that if it isn't needed, you just fill up space in the replies section of the thread. ;)

Edited by Elicas
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