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Elicas

Suggestion - Timeline (PvE)

105 posts in this topic

8 Months was utterly minimum time period for progression, that's taking into account people clearing AQ40 and Naxx on day 1, as well as having the AQ War Effort done in one day. Realistically, even on high pop servers like Kronos, the war effort takes months, and Naxx at least will take weeks if not months of gear grind before someone downs KT.

I would be astounded if we progressed to TBC before 18 months.

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Elicas made my original, long, rambling post unnecessary!

I don't know if it's possible to balance the timeline where hardcore players aren't sitting around bored and causals are able to experience all the end game content. Yes you could artificially push back TBC release by a month or two, but that wouldn't be enough time to change the game for causals. 

 

My advice is to find like-minded people and start a guild with the goal of a reasonable pace of leveling to 60 and then raiding end game.

Edited by Calfuron
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3 hours ago, Murok said:

How are you going to balance this timeline between hardcore players who hit max level after six days and people like me for whom those six days are rather six months? If TBC is really released after only 8 months this would leave me with almost no time for end game content. If I remember correctly vanilla WOW ran from Feb. 2005 to Jan. 2007, i. e. about 23 months.

Is the majority of players on pservers really that hardcore and progress oriented that you fear losing them before the expansions?

A possible but rather unsatisfying solution to this was discussed in another thread: letting servers with an older expansion stay online and give players the opportunity to copy their characters to the expansion server when they want to.

I wanted to ask this question and you have touched upon.

Having the option to copy your character(s) to the TBC realm, that way if you wished to stay in Vanilla content then you can, and the whole economy/system remains the same. I know the previous place people have come from talked about doing the same and it was appealing.

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This thread has a lot of old info and speculation in it.  I'm going to clear a bunch of stuff up in my weekly update tomorrow, but for now, a short response will suffice:

We're looking at opening a tiered raid instance every (roughly) four months.  So we'll launch with MC. Four months later BWL, four months later AQ, four months later Naxxramas, and four months later the TBC upgrade.  So you're looking at a 16 month period between launch and TBC. 

The plan is to upgrade the PvE realm automatically to TBC, and open a fresh PvP TBC realm, allowing all interested players to transfer their characters from the existing Vanilla PvP to the new TBC PvP.

Plan is still subject to change, and some of that will depend on what players want and how players are doing with the content, but that's the general ballpark.

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10 minutes ago, Darkrasp said:

 

The plan is to upgrade the PvE realm automatically to TBC, and open a fresh PvP TBC realm, allowing all interested players to transfer their characters from the existing Vanilla PvP to the new TBC PvP.

Hello @Darkrasp

What's the thinking about this? Why do you differentiate between the PvE and PvP realms? I'm sure there's a very good reason why. Just not got the mental ability to see it.

Cheers 

 

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1 minute ago, Outstanding said:

What's the thinking about this? Why do you differentiate between the PvE and PvP realms?

Population.  We estimate there will be enough people on the PvP server that if half want to go and half want to stay, there will be enough in both places to maintain a healthy population on both TBC and Vanilla.

This does depend on just how big the PvE community is, but our estimate is that the PvE community wouldn't be big enough to survive splitting the population.  Of course, we could be wrong, which is why I said that was only the current plan, and subject to change based on what the community wants, and where things stand as we get close to that time.

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I see. Of course, if you allowed us to keep L60 avatars there we could do both realms, this would mean you would always have a vanilla server available to people who haven't played pure vanilla before, with a viable population. Actually, that's never going to work is it? Oh well, thanks for the info.

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2 hours ago, Darkrasp said:

This thread has a lot of old info and speculation in it.  I'm going to clear a bunch of stuff up in my weekly update tomorrow, but for now, a short response will suffice:

We're looking at opening a tiered raid instance every (roughly) four months.  So we'll launch with MC. Four months later BWL, four months later AQ, four months later Naxxramas, and four months later the TBC upgrade.  So you're looking at a 16 month period between launch and TBC. 

The plan is to upgrade the PvE realm automatically to TBC, and open a fresh PvP TBC realm, allowing all interested players to transfer their characters from the existing Vanilla PvP to the new TBC PvP.

Plan is still subject to change, and some of that will depend on what players want and how players are doing with the content, but that's the general ballpark.

Regarding AQ, I'm guessing we'll still have the war effort after BWL launches, so that 4 months to AQ is subject to the speed the community can do it, right?

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I don't think it's going to take four months to finish the War Effort, but we'll do some math on it and find out.  I doubt we'll launch it concurrently with BWL, it'll come somewhere afterwards.

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15 minutes ago, Darkrasp said:

I don't think it's going to take four months to finish the War Effort, but we'll do some math on it and find out.  I doubt we'll launch it concurrently with BWL, it'll come somewhere afterwards.

Well, I know Kronos 1 is still knocking away at the war effort and that launched March 6th, that's 5 months now and they aren't quite finished, with ~3k players peak on Kronos 1. You'd need to significantly beat them in terms of population to significantly speed it up.

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1 hour ago, Elicas said:

Well, I know Kronos 1 is still knocking away at the war effort and that launched March 6th, that's 5 months now and they aren't quite finished, with ~3k players peak on Kronos 1. You'd need to significantly beat them in terms of population to significantly speed it up.

Doesn't quite hit those numbers anymore and was offline for 2-3 weeks (maybe more?).

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Sounds fishy to me.  Didn't take us anywhere near that long on retail and our realm was only medium population.  I have a feeling they tweaked it to make it longer.

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Anything less then 4 months on content is an extreme waste of time and effort put forth on the server by the Dev's, Staff, and Testers. 

The progression in releasing content slowly is what creates the game actually being vanilla; anything catering to 2016 vanilla timelines = it's a sandbox game.

Vanilla is meant to be enjoyed not rushed. Quality always trumps Quanity

 

 

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5 hours ago, Darkrasp said:

Sounds fishy to me.  Didn't take us anywhere near that long on retail and our realm was only medium population.  I have a feeling they tweaked it to make it longer.

From what I heard they did, artificially inflate their timeline to fix as many bugs in AQ. 

Nost was going to do this, but mainly because their population was like having x3 full servers back in retail. 

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i was thinking about molten core bosses and how easy they are to kill for those really hardcore raiders, so I have these ideas for those raids not be able to kill those bosses so trivializingly fast without making the raid too much harder for casuals to beat in pre-raid gear:

lucifron: enrage after 70% if any flamewalker adds are still alive by then; the enrage also comes with 70% damage reduction before armor and resistances(maybe as a separate spell)

magmadar: makes raid members breathe fire more often, turning that into a FR fight; all other sources of its fire damage aside from the fire breath that comes from the boss' mouth hits a LOT harder, especially the fire on the floor

gehennas: gehennas enrages after 70% if any flamewalker adds are still alive by then; the enrage also comes with 70% damage reduction before armor and resistances(maybe as a separate spell); the fight could also stand to have the hp and non-physical damage of the boss and adds increased just a little i guess

garr: i think that garr is fine as-is

baron geddon: i guess the fight is fine as-is

shazzrah: uses arcane explosion roughly twice as often(but never twice in <3 seconds), but the increased frequency of arcane explosions is 5 seconds after being initially aggroed and 5 seconds after a teleport; basically that just means that melee doesn't get to burn him down in 20 seconds by using a greater arcane protection potion and getting healed after it wears off, and that you'll want an extra tank healer for the fight, maybe

sulfuron harbringer: enrage after 70%(or maybe 60%) if any priests are still alive by then; the enrage also comes with 70% damage reduction before armor and resistances(maybe as a separate spell)

golemagg: i think that golemagg is fine as-is

domo: i think domo is fine as-is, thats a hard enough fight anyway in pre-raid blues

ragnaros: fixing the boss to actually be blizz-like and require the whole raid to wear fire resistance gear should be enough to fix that boss imo, but if it isn't enough, then the aoe knockback timer could be decreased by 10 seconds; instead of doing the aoe knockback when the timer is up, rag has a 20% chance to do the aoe knockback every second until rag actually does it

 

i think that those changes would not make it significantly harder for casuals to raid MC, aside from gehennas who was really easy in comparsion to the other bosses anyway, and I think that the changes, if implemented on crestfall, should never be reverted on crestfall

Edited by Aquane
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@Elicas has a reasonable timeline, maybe an additional week or two between patches, and rearrange a couple of things. 

I would definitely shift DM to be released before BWL. It does have a few bis items in there for most classes, but it will be more of catch-up gear for people that haven't been farming MC and/or haven't been able to get gear from there. The few decent gear pieces from DM will hardly affect BWL progression. 

Also I think ZG should come before additional world bosses, and have some extra time between the two of those, seems like you cramming to much new content in too close to each other.

Other than those minor changes everything else looks good to me.

@Aquane We don't really want to drastically start altering bosses like that, maybe minor changes here and there to make it reasonably challenging for everyone. If we start to add new mechanics to encounters, it will very quickly start swaying away from the game we all know and love.

Its impossible to make the game as "difficult" as it was back then without drastically changing and essentially making it into a completely different version of WoW.

The challenge has become more about perfecting it rather than trying to conquer it.

4 hours ago, Zetox said:

Vanilla is meant to be enjoyed not rushed. Quality always trumps Quanity

I agree with what you're saying, but too much time between patches tends to make the game feel stale and people start to get bored.

_____

Offtopic regarding what's happening on Kronos. I think the additional realm hurt their first server a lot. The AQ release is either getting artificially held back because it is not ready or there aren't enough players left on the server(peak pop is ~1/3 of an actual blizzard server) to contribute to the war effort fast enough. Either way its taking way too long for them to open the gates.

We haven't seen any content past BWL in vanilla from the twinstar(kronos) team, but if its anything like their previous content, it will feel like a faceroll for even your average guild.

Edited by surveillance
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1 hour ago, surveillance said:

I agree with what you're saying, but too much time between patches tends to make the game feel stale and people start to get bored.

Top guilds will clear everything very fast and will start getting bored no matter what, most of their members have played vanilla on couple of pservers already (a lot of them on retail vanilla as well) and have cleared these raids a number of times. The server shouldn't cater to the needs of the top minority.

I, for example, have never raided in vanilla so I'm really looking forward to a fresh quality start here on Crestfall. It would really be a shame if the progression happen too fast for me and all the other average players to keep up. You have to keep in mind the time needed for an average player to even reach lvl 60. We have jobs/school, life outside video games and all that stuff... I don't want to feel like I'm in a constant race, rushed to lvl and gear up fast just so I get to keep up with the server. 

That's why I would like to see the progression like it was on retail vanilla 10-12 years ago. Back then it took a little bit over 2 years for tbc to start. I have no desire to make a wall of text by listing how many months there were between specific patches/raids, they can all be found here http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Patches/1.x

I hope the devs will keep in mind that newbies, casuals and such make up the majority of a pserver population. They (we) do not feel the need to rush through the content, be the first to down Rag/Nef/KT and stuff like that. We want to have plenty of time to lvl, then slowly and steadily gear up, experience and enjoy the raids, while at the same time living our actual lives normally. 

Edited by Wolfrig
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@Aquane i like your ideas, a fine balance between upping resistance/higher hp and slight changes in tactics can make the early raids very very interesting

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2 hours ago, Wolfrig said:

Top guilds will clear everything very fast and will start getting bored no matter what, most of their members have played vanilla on couple of pservers already (a lot of them on retail vanilla as well) and have cleared these raids a number of times. The server shouldn't cater to the needs of the top minority.

I, for example, have never raided in vanilla so I'm really looking forward to a fresh quality start here on Crestfall. It would really be a shame if the progression happen too fast for me and all the other average players to keep up. You have to keep in mind the time needed for an average player to even reach lvl 60. We have jobs/school, life outside video games and all that stuff... I don't want to feel like I'm in a constant race, rushed to lvl and gear up fast just so I get to keep up with the server. 

That's why I would like to see the progression like it was on retail vanilla 10-12 years ago. Back then it took a little bit over 2 years for tbc to start. I have no desire to make a wall of text by listing how many months there were between specific patches/raids, they can all be found here http://wowwiki.wikia.com/wiki/Patches/1.x

I hope the devs will keep in mind that newbies, casuals and such make up the majority of a pserver population. They (we) do not feel the need to rush through the content, be the first to down Rag/Nef/KT and stuff like that. We want to have plenty of time to lvl, then slowly and steadily gear up, experience and enjoy the raids, while at the same time living our actual lives normally. 

I'm with Wolfrig.  Overtuning bosses for the hardcore in the early stages of patch doesn't bother me because it's very unlikely to effect me (I'm just a dirty casual).  All I'm after is a place to play a version of the original game that has an end point to it without having to do it in any kind of a hurry, so getting bumped into TBC while I'm still kicking around in the "early" endgame (anything before AQ40/Naxx) would be a bummer.

Edited by Humperdink
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4 months means 16 raids - in the perfect sense, quite hard to gear 40+ members in 16 raids. Especially if unlucky drops, like we had on Kronos for our tanks. So, 4 months may be good for hardcore players but not much for all playerbase. I just thing this timeline, no matter how rough should be thought over. I don't want the game to cater casuals, but still should find the median there, 4 months is more like nolifers oriented.

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Even though I'd like to go hardcore on this server and start clearing content as soon as it gets out, I prefer it has longer time frame for each raid tier.
I kinda missed the majority of vanilla back in the day, so I want to play all of it for as much as I can without a rush for a new content and expansion.

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I would like to add to my post that some raids as MC can use smaller time frame, but as progression comes further and raids get harder the time frame should expand a bit.

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55 minutes ago, Joyman said:

4 months means 16 raids - in the perfect sense, quite hard to gear 40+ members in 16 raids. Especially if unlucky drops, like we had on Kronos for our tanks. So, 4 months may be good for hardcore players but not much for all playerbase. I just thing this timeline, no matter how rough should be thought over. I don't want the game to cater casuals, but still should find the median there, 4 months is more like nolifers oriented.

Excelent point, backed up with some math, added to this that we (the majority) have yet to experience a 95%+ blizzard vanilla journey and so it would be, in my eyes, a good idea to spread it out a little more so the content isnt orientated to the top 3% who, moreover the other 97%, have already experienced the wonderful adventure that is O.G. WoW. 

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Four months does indeed mean 16 raids.  But you have to extrapolate that out since people can still run MC/BWL/AQ in future patches as well.

Sixteen months means a year and four months between Launch and TBC.  That's 68 Molten Cores, 52 BWLs, etc.

Plus, just because the content is there doesn't mean you have to run it, and just because the realm updates to 2.0 doesn't mean you have to upgrade.

While I was fortunate enough to clear all the TBC content before Wrath, my Vanilla guild was not as hardcore.  We never managed to kill C'thun or clear most of Naxxramas during Vanilla.  Heck, the vast, vast majority of players never saw Kel'Thuzad at 60.  We just went back and did him at 70 for kicks.

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Four months seems okay. It's going to take a while/short while (for some) that first month anyways. Some of the items being held back should make things a bit more interesting.

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