Welcome to Crestfall Gaming

Register now to Crestfall Gaming. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to contribute to this site by submitting your own content or replying to existing content. You'll be able to customize your profile, receive reputation points as a reward for submitting content, while also communicating with other members via your own private inbox, plus much more! This message will be removed once you have signed in.

Elicas

Suggestion - Timeline (PvE)

105 posts in this topic

For reference sake, Retail timeline:

Release date - 1.2 (Mara) was 1 month

1.2  - 1.3 (DM) was 3 months

1.3 - 1.4 (Honor system) was 1 month

1.4 - 1.5 (BGs) was 2 months

1.5 - 1.6 (BWL) was 1 month (which means 8 months after launch for BWL)

1.6 - 1.7 (ZG) was 2 months (Fun fact: Nefarian world first was 2 weeks after ZG release)

1.7 - 1.8 (Green Dragons) was 1 month

1.8 -1.9 (War Effort / AQ) was 3 months (So 6 months after BWL launch for war effort, Medivh got world first War effort completed in 20 days)

1.9 to 1.10 (.5 quests / item updates) was 3 months

1.10 to 1.11 (Naxx) was 3 months (So 6 months after AQ release)

1.11 to 2.0 Prepatch was 5 months

2.0 Prepatch was Dec 2006, Vanilla release was Nov 2004. So 25 months for vanilla content all together.

 

TLDR; 8 months for BWL, 6 months for AQ, 6 months for Naxx, 5 months to TBC

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's important to note modern context there as well. BWL was cleared ~10 weeks after it released. On every P-server that has released BWL in the last ~5 years or so, more than 50% of the raiding population has downed Nef the night it was released.

No one wants 8 months of farm between released.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just don't see the need for a faster-than-retail release. It's not like people will just be waiting for Vanilla to end to finally start TBC. There are plenty of things to do so long as you don't spent 12 hours playing WoW every day, in which case you will naturally get fed up by the whole game very fast. 

You also have to keep in mind the time needed to lvl to 60 when considering BWL release. Sure, top elite guilds will have their pool of 60's ready to do MC in less than 2 weeks, but it will take MUCH longer for average, yet still PvE enthusiastic guilds to get people geared up to finally start raiding. 

13 minutes ago, Elicas said:

It's important to note modern context there as well. BWL was cleared ~10 weeks after it released. On every P-server that has released BWL in the last ~5 years or so, more than 50% of the raiding population has downed Nef the night it was released.

No one wants 8 months of farm between released.

Six months more likely than eight, but I see your point. However, only the best guilds will have such a long farm - if Crestfall team does a good job, hopefully clearing whole new content on the night of release will not be so easy. Even in the case of best guilds quick-clearing DESPITE bosses being made harder, the fight should be much more challenging for the rest of the players. 

If you happen to play on average 2-3 hours max on a non-raid day, it would be really hard to get bored with the game. It's not like once you start playing Vanilla, it is the only game you can possibly play so you need new content as fast as possible to keep yourself entertained. If you are really bored and have farmed the content, lay low for a while, play something else.

Or go out and spend some time in the real world, even :D .

Edited by Wolfrig
1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Wolfrig said:

Or go out and spend some time in the real life, even :D .

What is this "real life" i hear tales of?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, Wolfrig said:

Or go out and spend some time in the real world, even :D .

Considering the amount of time I spend on the forum, probably not a bad idea :P

I still don't want to be farming MC/BWL for ~9 months again though, MC is pretty boring after you have got it down to flawless kills, which only takes a week or two of gear revision for most normal guilds, let alone hardcore guilds, and even progression there isn't the most interesting of times. BWL is similar, the real 'meat' of Vanilla doesn't drop until AQ is released. Even for casual guilds, ZG and AQ20 are 100x more interesting raids than MC or BWL can ever be.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There seems to be the idea that once a new raid is released you completely stop raiding previous instances. This is not true. Once BWL is released, guilds will still be running MC and so forth. 

 

I'm sensing alot of hate towards "hardcore" players. How do you define causal vs. hardcore?  

The ability to play many hours every day definitely helps in leveling up and pre-raid gearing up, but after that it's not a big deal because you can only clear a raid once a week. Yes in retail top guilds would raid 7 nights a week but that was to learn new content which is unnecessary here.

I think one reason that some people (myself included) rush through leveling to hit 60 and raid is because we're done the leveling thing, many many times. Taking my time leveling is not much fun, I've done that already. For every race and every class.

 

In my opinion, one of the hardest aspects of raiding in vanilla was getting together 40 competent people a few nights a week to raid. If anything, the delayed release of ZG hurts causal guilds because getting together a 20-man raid is a good stepping stone to getting 40 people (here the value of ZG is less about the gear than in practice raiding together). The flip-side of this is that releasing ZG helps top guilds make raids trivial.

 

WoW raiding is not something that you pick up to play when you have a random free hour of time to play a game (I have Mega Man on the NES for that!). If you want to raid all the end game content in WoW, you will have to make a commitment. You are committing to your guild and the other members that you will show up to the raid on-time and stay for the duration. 

 

Frankly I'm rather surprised at how few posts I see in the guild recruitment section. I figured more people would be posting and starting to form guilds around common goals and circumstances. For instance, a causal raiding guild for people that want to raid all the content but can only dedicate so much time to the game due to other commitments. 

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Elicas said:

I still don't want to be farming MC/BWL for ~9 months again though, MC is pretty boring after you have got it down to flawless kills.."

"After you've got down to flawless kills." The goal is to make that not possible within the standard time; hence allowing for more progression time.

Yes, if this server is another Nost then sure progression can go fast but that has been our whole purpose in discussion in the forums for creating this server is so it's not.

Thankfully it's not going to be; thus 'boredom' will be the exact opposite of what should be the case for all players when fighting CR raids. 

Old encounters/mechanics can get 'boring' but not new. Sighting 'variance' of degree of difficulty is divergence to unknown prophecy. 

 

As for my timing preference, not set in stone but maybe 4 Months MC, 6-8 BWL, 8+ AQ, 8+ Nax = 26-30 months essentially Blizzard's Timeline but with more focus on later tiers.

Edited by Zetox
1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, I didn't expect to get such a ball rolling. But I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who is concerned about the progression perhaps being too fast.

2 hours ago, Calfuron said:

I think one reason that some people (myself included) rush through leveling to hit 60 and raid is because we're done the leveling thing, many many times. Taking my time leveling is not much fun, I've done that already. For every race and every class.

I had two max level chars back in the day (Tauren Druid and Troll Mage). In TBC they were accompanied by two Blood Elves (Paladin and Hunter). It wasn't until Wrath that I had every class available at max level. Considering the time that lies between my vanilla leveling experience and today, I'm pretty sure there will be a lot of things that will seem new to me again. I am not going to rush to 60. I didn't play in pservers (except on Nost until level 16 which doesn't really count). For those who did that might be different, I get that.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Joyman said:

4 months means 16 raids - in the perfect sense, quite hard to gear 40+ members in 16 raids. Especially if unlucky drops, like we had on Kronos for our tanks. So, 4 months may be good for hardcore players but not much for all playerbase. I just thing this timeline, no matter how rough should be thought over. I don't want the game to cater casuals, but still should find the median there, 4 months is more like nolifers oriented.

Yeah, 4 months is way too short IMO. Especially for the first tier, considering that:

Everyone has to reach 60. (which could take up to 2 months for people with less time on their hands)

Then they have to farm 5/10-mans for pre-raid blues. (which will get progressively harder as the tanks/healers get their gear and stop)

Then you have to gear up 40-50 people off MC/Ony. (which will always be wrecked by the same items dropping every week for the class that doesn't need. Having the full MC loot tables from the start will help, but Blizz's flawed RNG will always be there)

=========

I would say 6 months per tier at least, and add a couple of extra months to T1 (to take levelling and pre-raid farming into account) and a month or so to T2.5 (to open the gates), or the vast majority won't get to AQ/Naxx. (and this is crucial for the PvE server, which is going to get TBC automatically)

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, Zetox said:

"After you've got down to flawless kills." The goal is to make that not possible within the standard time; hence allowing for more progression time.

Thing is, nothing currently hypothesised on by the devs would make any of the bosses a real wall, since they don't want to limit casual progression either. Guaranteed by the time BWL drops, unless they significantly buff things, we will be running 2 MC raids a week with 25-30 people per raid, mostly using alts, in order to maximise loot drops. By the time ZG drops, we'll be doing the same in BWL.

They're two mutually incompatible positions. Either the bosses are hard enough to slow down progression and farming, in which case casuals will struggle to see the raid content, or the bosses aren't going to slow down progression at all, leading to Nost/Kronos levels of farm for anyone in a hardcore guild.

It would be better to speed up early progression, to prevent burn out on MC/BWL, and stretch out AQ/Naxx slightly. Say 3 months for between MC/BWL, but 6 between AQ and Naxx. AQ is still a decent enough challenge for any guild not running ~40 soulstone alts for C'thun, and with the limit to 2 accounts per ip you wont have quite so many alt warlock accounts.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Seems like a lot of people have different perceptions of how the timeline should look time-wise. I think its safe to take a blizzlike timeline cut x% of time off each "tier" and adjust time for difficulty of each tier(little more time to prepare for AQ than for BWL).

Modern day "progression rate" will be faster due to available information and experience, so going with blizzard's time as it was back then will not feel right. No one wants to wait 8 months for BWL it will feel like an eternity for everyone. 

Personally I think it should be based on what % of the server has cleared all available content, ie. when 70% of players participated in a Rag kill, release BWL, or something along those lines. This is something that's probably easier said than done, but the mentality is what matters. You want enough players to clear available content and have some time to farm it before releasing a new "tier", but if you wait too long people will start to get bored. What I'm saying is you should go by the "feel" of the server rather than some predetermined time frames.

Its about finding the balance with the rate of content release, but it should certainly be shorter intervals than they were back in the day. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Calfuron I don't think there's any hate directed at the elite guilds. There might be antipathy towards a succession of threads, posts and debates on boss issues that are part of the game but not the be all and end all to a large percentage of players. 

However, these same players understand that the good name and reputation of the server depends on positive feedback from these players and guilds. So it doesn't matter what percentage there is of elite players in the realms, they are an important and vocal part of the community. 

I am surprised at the lack of guild activity. I guess the factors are that we are still 4-6 months out from launch, that guilds have been burnt this year on server failures, and the diaspora that has occurred since Nost died. 

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 07/08/2016 at 8:14 PM, Darkrasp said:

This thread has a lot of old info and speculation in it.  I'm going to clear a bunch of stuff up in my weekly update tomorrow, but for now, a short response will suffice:

We're looking at opening a tiered raid instance every (roughly) four months.  So we'll launch with MC. Four months later BWL, four months later AQ, four months later Naxxramas, and four months later the TBC upgrade.  So you're looking at a 16 month period between launch and TBC. 

The plan is to upgrade the PvE realm automatically to TBC, and open a fresh PvP TBC realm, allowing all interested players to transfer their characters from the existing Vanilla PvP to the new TBC PvP.

Plan is still subject to change, and some of that will depend on what players want and how players are doing with the content, but that's the general ballpark.

Thank you for the response, Darkrasp.

I'm glad to see things are subject to change over time. I can only hope that PvE brings the numbers required and the support from the community to allow both vanilla and TBC options.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Of course we should go by the feel of the server! :) No one should be trying to be things in stone yet!

In reply to @Elicas You're right when it comes to progression in the sense of downing bosses. I should have used a different word, but I meant in terms of speeding up boss kills 'progression.'

The changes in place we've theorized at the moment should most definitely limit these speed boss kills and allow for 'progression' in the sense of competing for speeding up the kills and raid times.

I believe that the progression in that sense of the word is definitely rewarding and allows a sense of competition between hardcore guilds which is what my points were referring to. Does this make sense? 

Edited by Zetox
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, surveillance said:

Personally I think it should be based on what % of the server has cleared all available content, ie. when 70% of players participated in a Rag kill, release BWL, or something along those lines.

I think this is a good idea if it worked as intended. But I see two pitfalls with it. First, it could end up punishing alot of players and not just top guilds. And second, I can see top guilds just offering to carry random people through raids they have on farm just to get the next raid "unlocked"

 

4 hours ago, Outstanding said:

 I don't think there's any hate directed at the elite guilds.

Hate was probably too strong of a word but I read some animosity towards "hardcore" players in some previous posts. But then again I may reading too much into things, and in fact there is not a divide between hardcore and causal players. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You still forget that 16 raids per tier is ideal. Quite few guilds will match. You run lower tier constantly, but not much because of gear, but because of materials. With faster pace will mean that most people won't see AQ quite like retail. As I sympathize with the hardcore pop, neglecting the majority of the population is not good. Keep the game hard, not cater casuals, just give them enough time to enjoy the game - relatively enough of course. We won't stick to the slowest player or the biggest noob. And I mean that at least AQ should be available to the casual population, Naxx is another story. And if things goes as planned we won't see last tiers in that slow pace. I played on Kronos and for one year we didn't kill Nefarian. Keep in mind guild dramas, people leaving thus needing new gear for new members and such. Almost no guild will be 40 player always the same, always online for optimal gearing. 16 raids per tier is not enough for gearing for any guild and I agree that hardcore players will catch up with releasing new tiers, casuals will be bogged down even more. So a compromise must me met. And it doesn't matter if the server will progress immediately to TBC(PVE if not enough pop), because when TBC is open almost no one will stay to continue raiding AQ/Naxx, because that will slow him even more on TBC progression, which most likely will follow same fast pace and then WoTLK. Imagine even if few players want to stay, most likely majority of their friends, guild mates will progress to next expac, so I think the issue is quite relevant for the success of the server.

Edited by Joyman
typo
1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I second that. What's the point of pushing for new raids and expansions if majority of the people won't have enough time to exprience it?
We already had this problem 10 years ago, when people couldn't catch up with a content.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sure, top guilds will get bored between raids, but the more average and casual guilds would be lucky to ever get so much gear and get bored before new content.

Also, the gap between MC and BWL should be at least a bit bigger than the gap between the raids that follow. As I stated before, it takes months for most players to reach lvl 60 and get all the bis gear before they can get their guild organized to finally start the actual raiding, and with the good ideas for increased difficulty by Crestfall team (here I'm mostly referring to the one that seems most likely to happen, and that is the boss ability randomized cooldown one) it might take quite a while before an average guild downs Rag for the first time.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

agreed with @Joyman .

I'm a older (in 3 years playing mobas/fps/rts u forget everything about WoW / mmo) player. A mid way between casual and bit-hardcore.

I want to do some content, want to give some DPS and hav some impact on pve/raid/pvp. 

I have to learn  basic things, rotations, what some denomination means for gears, tiers. I'm not a Slowpoke one kek. But i'm not a hardcore know-everything too.

So the game needs to make some balance, because we can't (in everything in our life) balance things with lowest parameter neither the highest. 

:> I must have fun same as a full hardcore one. He'll take down everything in game in weeks, i'll take some months. Simple enough. xP

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think catering to the majority in terms of time (not difficulty or anything else) is  a good consideration, hardcore raiders will find other things to do anyway, be it level an alt, make more gold, help guildies and stock up on comsumables. 4 months, especialy for the first tier, seems a little too low for me and will not recreate the laid-back athmosphere vanilla had related to timing of raid content. It is an important aspect in Vanilla to make friends, and enlonging time periods will allow for a better environment in order to find the right group of people to play and group up with. If you do not want to recreate this you can ofcourse discard this comment since its your server, im just trying to bring out the voice of the mid-casual to hardcore player.

4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One small addition, giving relatively more time to vanilla, you give yourselves, as developers more time to work on TBC, because all must keep in mind that vanilla, no matter how good the launch is will have bugs to be taken care of. And this will divide your time, on for example fixing raids like Naxx and working on TBC. One year to work on TBC(in ideal state) is not so much enough, considering how many changes are there between 1.12.1 and 2.4.3.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would be curious to know the range and average of play time per day/week (a histogram would be nice!). Too bad can't find this for other vanilla private servers.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd too rather have more time between the patches. Something like 6 months till BWL and 5 months between later patches.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think another issue that impacts release timeline is population and population growth. In retail it felt like there were always new people joining the server and looking to try some raiding (even as AQ/Naxx were being raided, new guilds were forming to start MC). This is opposite to my limited experience on private servers, where while people may continue to leave/join the server, never in the numbers necessary to where new raiding guilds would form. New players would rather try to join an existing guild that is already raiding than form a new guild and start from the bottom.

My point is that we could potentially have x months before XYZ raid is released, but unless the server continues to grow significantly after launch then the raiding scene won't change that much. Meaning that more or less time between patches won't matter. Maybe someone with more experience on private servers can chime in here.

 

I'm against punishing progressive guilds with extended time between patches. That being said, I think there are a few more natural points where time can be inserted less painfully and perhaps even with purpose.

First is delaying when MC is released. This gives top guilds more time to farm BiS and consumables, while allowing others more time to level to 60.

On 8/8/2016 at 10:31 AM, Rembrandt said:

Fun fact: Nefarian world first was 2 weeks after ZG release

Second is the release of ZG. While I feel that ZG is a great place to help struggling guilds, the fact that Rembrandt mentioned above indicates to me that ZG gear may tip the scales in favor of the raiders against Nefarian. Assuming this holds here, then delaying ZG a few weeks would delay the completion of BWL.

Third, AQ war effort made longer especially if players are going to bank up mats before the start of the war effort. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
39 minutes ago, Calfuron said:

I think another issue that impacts release timeline is population and population growth. In retail it felt like there were always new people joining the server and looking to try some raiding (even as AQ/Naxx were being raided, new guilds were forming to start MC). This is opposite to my limited experience on private servers, where while people may continue to leave/join the server, never in the numbers necessary to where new raiding guilds would form. New players would rather try to join an existing guild that is already raiding than form a new guild and start from the bottom.

My point is that we could potentially have x months before XYZ raid is released, but unless the server continues to grow significantly after launch then the raiding scene won't change that much. Meaning that more or less time between patches won't matter. Maybe someone with more experience on private servers can chime in here.

 

I'm against punishing progressive guilds with extended time between patches. That being said, I think there are a few more natural points where time can be inserted less painfully and perhaps even with purpose.

First is delaying when MC is released. This gives top guilds more time to farm BiS and consumables, while allowing others more time to level to 60.

Second is the release of ZG. While I feel that ZG is a great place to help struggling guilds, the fact that Rembrandt mentioned above indicates to me that ZG gear may tip the scales in favor of the raiders against Nefarian. Assuming this holds here, then delaying ZG a few weeks would delay the completion of BWL.

Third, AQ war effort made longer especially if players are going to bank up mats before the start of the war effort. 

ZG was released after BWL on retail. It just took time for people to get all the tactics down and actually clear the place.

1.6 on 12/07/2005 was BWL release.

1.7 on 13/09/2005 was ZG release.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now