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Elicas

Suggestion - Timeline (PvE)

105 posts in this topic
13 minutes ago, Elicas said:

ZG was released after BWL on retail. It just took time for people to get all the tactics down and actually clear the place.

1.6 on 12/07/2005 was BWL release.

1.7 on 13/09/2005 was ZG release.

ZG was released after BWL was released but not cleared is my understanding. The point I was wondering about was whether gear from ZG made the clearing of BWL easier. If so, by delaying the release of ZG, we could delay the clearing of BWL (per Rembrandt this is what appeared to happen in retail but probably doesn't apply as much now).

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11 minutes ago, Calfuron said:

ZG was released after BWL was released but not cleared is my understanding. The point I was wondering about was whether gear from ZG made the clearing of BWL easier. If so, by delaying the release of ZG, we could delay the clearing of BWL (per Rembrandt this is what appeared to happen in retail but probably doesn't apply as much now).

There wont be any need unless the devs significantly buff BWL. It's usually cleared the night of release on private servers.

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2 hours ago, Elicas said:

There wont be any need unless the devs significantly buff BWL. It's usually cleared the night of release on private servers.

True. My understanding was that the devs wanted to buff raids to where they wouldn't be cleared on release night.

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1 hour ago, Calfuron said:

True. My understanding was that the devs wanted to buff raids to where they wouldn't be cleared on release night.

They also dont want to put raids out of reach of casual players. It's a mutually incompatible standpoint.

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It isn't.  We intend to buff them at first release, and then tune them back after they've been cleared.  By the time casuals are ready for the content, it'll be at a normal difficulty level.

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5 hours ago, Calfuron said:

First is delaying when MC is released. This gives top guilds more time to farm BiS and consumables, while allowing others more time to level to 60.

Second is the release of ZG. While I feel that ZG is a great place to help struggling guilds, the fact that Rembrandt mentioned above indicates to me that ZG gear may tip the scales in favor of the raiders against Nefarian. Assuming this holds here, then delaying ZG a few weeks would delay the completion of BWL.

Third, AQ war effort made longer especially if players are going to bank up mats before the start of the war effort. 

Another option would be to extend the final tier by some distance - I can't see any guilds complaining about 8 months of Naxx, after all it's more than hard enough to clear at all. (not to mention it and AQ40 are the pinnacle of vanilla raiding...why would you want it to end so soon?)

 

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1 hour ago, Elicas said:

They also dont want to put raids out of reach of casual players. 

Casual in terms of time or skill? I personally don't see a problem in having end game content requiring players to become better players in order to progress.

And I think this is where Blizzard made a mistake as they slowly began neutering WoW difficulty expansion after expansion. The fulfillment felt in completing end game raids is in the challenge, ultimately in overcoming adversity through hard work and dedication. 

 

15 minutes ago, Momonn said:

Another option would be to extend the final tier by some distance - I can't see any guilds complaining about 8 months of Naxx, after all it's more than hard enough to clear at all. (not to mention it and AQ40 are the pinnacle of vanilla raiding...why would you want it to end so soon?)

Definitely. But I've no idea how long it generally takes to clear/farm AQ40 and Naxx. In the end I imagine the release of TBC will more depend on the devs than on guild progress (unless it's decided to wait until so many guilds/players have completed vanilla content).

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4 hours ago, Momonn said:

Another option would be to extend the final tier by some distance - I can't see any guilds complaining about 8 months of Naxx.

I like this idea.  No promises, but I would prefer this to long delays between content releases. 

Part of the reason people blitz newly released content so quickly is because they have so much time to farm old content and get fully geared before the next raid comes out.  If a guild is only going to get 8 MC clears in before BWL is released, their odds of having a Thunderfury for BWL week one, or even AQ week one, are suddenly pretty darn low, and that hurts tank threat generation in a big way.  If they only get a dozen BWL clears before AQ, they may not get tank gear to drop at all.  That's a way to increase the difficulty without touching the encounters; just don't give people months to farm up every single piece of Best-in-Slot gear.

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35 minutes ago, Darkrasp said:

I like this idea.  No promises, but I would prefer this to long delays between content releases. 

Part of the reason people blitz newly released content so quickly is because they have so much time to farm old content and get fully geared before the next raid comes out.  If a guild is only going to get 8 MC clears in before BWL is released, their odds of having a Thunderfury for BWL week one, or even AQ week one, are suddenly pretty darn low, and that hurts tank threat generation in a big way.  If they only get a dozen BWL clears before AQ, they may not get tank gear to drop at all.  That's a way to increase the difficulty without touching the encounters; just don't give people months to farm up every single piece of Best-in-Slot gear.

i think it should be 5 months after release for bwl, then 3 until zg, then 2 until war effort, sometime before war effort for nightmare dragons, then 5 months after both servers' war efforts are finished for naxx, then tbc can come out 7 months later

thats 15 months+war efforts until naxx comes out, then 7 more till tbc

Edited by Aquane
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18 hours ago, Darkrasp said:

I like this idea.  No promises, but I would prefer this to long delays between content releases. 

Part of the reason people blitz newly released content so quickly is because they have so much time to farm old content and get fully geared before the next raid comes out.  If a guild is only going to get 8 MC clears in before BWL is released, their odds of having a Thunderfury for BWL week one, or even AQ week one, are suddenly pretty darn low, and that hurts tank threat generation in a big way.  If they only get a dozen BWL clears before AQ, they may not get tank gear to drop at all.  That's a way to increase the difficulty without touching the encounters; just don't give people months to farm up every single piece of Best-in-Slot gear.

Youre making the game more streamlined and just shortening the experience in my eyes. Again, this caters only to the top 3% and wont bring joy to people who need time finding a guild and making friends. The time between the raids for say 5 months allows for guild drama to be solved with relax, friendships being built without pressure and just an overall more relaxed playingfield. I thought vanilla was all about creating bonds and guilds to defeat the enemy, not about skill and raids. 

Edited by Nogar
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54 minutes ago, Nogar said:

Youre making the game more streamlined and just shortening the experience in my eyes. Again, this caters only to the top 3% and wont bring joy to people who need time finding a guild and making friends. The time between the raids for say 5 months allows for guild drama to be somved with relax, friendships being built without pressure and just an overall more relaxed playingfield. I thought vanilla was all about creating bonds and guilds to defeat the enemy, not about skill and raids. 

+1 on this but can't as out of ammunition.

Can I just add to this in that people like certainty? So rather than saying when 'x' raid boss in down for three months we will release raid 'y', just give a time-frame when you intend to progress to TBC.

The current thought process is 16 months right? Well just call it 18 months and stick with that bar major issues.

Yes, I know things can change but here's the perspective on this:

Everybody, whether hardcore raiders or casuals can plan accordingly. The hard core guys may be bored for the last few months but they can level up alts or be invited to the TBC test realm. The casuals know they have to get their act together in 18 months or (in the PvE realm) get auto-promoted to TBC. If you can't get to level 60, join/form a good guild with like-minded people, and progress through all the raid content with that stopwatch on countdown, then the fault is with the players, in my opinion. 

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I feel like now we're just throwing out arbitrary numbers of months. If casuals need more time and vanilla really is mostly about the social aspect then wouldn't 20 months be better than 18? Why not keep it blizzlike and go with retail timeline of ~25 months? 

 

What about a casual that starts 4 months after launch? Shouldn't we extend the timeline so that  they can enjoy the experience?

 

My point is at the end of the day you have to make certain assumptions and cater to someone. As the server hasn't launch, we have no statistics on play times and progress. 

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@Calfuron I agree (mostly) and your points are well made. We may well be 4-6 months from server launch but I still think these kinds of issues need to be discussed. People put their perspective on these forums, and the developers can take them on board...or not. 

What I don't agree with is that TBC progression should be delayed owing to people arriving late to the server. After Nost and the events after its closure, there is no excuse for players not to be aware of the private server scene and Crestfall in particular. 

This would not be an issue if we were not forced into TBC progression on the PvE server, something I disagree with. 

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7 hours ago, Outstanding said:

@Calfuron I agree (mostly) and your points are well made. We may well be 4-6 months from server launch but I still think these kinds of issues need to be discussed. People put their perspective on these forums, and the developers can take them on board...or not. 

What I don't agree with is that TBC progression should be delayed owing to people arriving late to the server. After Nost and the events after its closure, there is no excuse for players not to be aware of the private server scene and Crestfall in particular. 

This would not be an issue if we were not forced into TBC progression on the PvE server, something I disagree with. 

They should just give people on the PVE server the option to transfer their character over to the the remaining Vanilla PVP server come BC time. The old PVP server is going to need new people to continue playing with anyways. I imagine 95% of the guilds on that server are going to crumble, reform, or merge since you are very likely not going to have 40 people who will agree to stay behind and farm content indefinitely. 

Edited by raiko
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I would be genuinely shocked to see slow numbers, not with the world wide attention vanilla received recently and the teamwork and effort displayed to date. Much of this to me appears to stem from a feeling of anxiousness due to the automatically upgrading to TBC suggestion and people not managing to experience the content before it is made obsolete. It's numbers dependent, having an option to continue as you were through opting into TBC or moving to a vanilla only, which would avoid starting from scratch through character copy.

At the end of the day we can only see how things move along and bounce suggestions and ideas around.

 

Edited by dormantoak
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I'd like to throw another "vote" in the hat for closer to original release schedule than accelerated.

I could write a diatribe about justification but it would mostly boil down to personal preference and the people I expect to be playing with.

SojwpO8.png

Quote

1.2 (month and a half after release)
- Maraudon is introduced:
- Gurubashi Arena Event
- The first Feast of Great-Winter Event
1.3 (two and a half months since last major patch)
- Dire Maul
- Azuregos
- Lord Kazzak
1.4 (one month after last patch)
- Epic Priest quest introduced
- Epic Hunter quest introduced
- PvP Honor System introduced
1.5 (two months after last patch)
- Battlegrounds are introduced:
- - Alterac Valley
- - Warsong Gulch
- All members of both the Horde and Alliance are reporting low stockpiles of various textile resources! Donations of cloth are now being accepted in the following locations: Darnassus, Stormwind, and Ironforge for the Alliance; Orgrimmar, Undercity, and Thunder Bluff for the Horde. Seek out an official Cloth Quartermaster for more information.
1.6 (one and a half months after last patch)
- Blackwing Lair introduced
- Darkmoon Faire introduced
- Battlemasters introduced
1.7 (two months after last patch)
- Zul'Gurub (new 20-player raid instance)
- Arathi Basin (15-player resource battleground instance)
- Stranglethorn Fishing Extravaganza
1.8 (one month)
- Dragons of Nightmare - The four corrupted dragons from the Emerald Dream.
- Silithus - Totally revamped zone for level 60 solo players and 5-man parties.
1.9 (two and a half months)
- Love is in the Air - Valentine's Day support.
- The Ruins of Ahn'Qiraj (outdoor 20-player instance)
- The Temple of Ahn'Qiraj (indoor 40-player instance)
1.10 (two and a half months)
- Weather effects
- Tier 0.5 armor sets, relevant questlines and new summonable bosses.
1.11 (three months)
- Naxxramas, (40-player raid instance), a massive necropolis floating above Stratholme
1.12 (two months)
- World Outdoor PvP enhancements
- Cross-Realm Battlegrounds

Note: the parenthesized intervals are not exact. Also a bunch of other non-content updates are omitted.

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Seems like a fallacy to spend all this time on something so wonderful, only to have it irreversibly transition in 16 months. 

#24miamore

#24causemoreismore

#24isthecure

#24forfuckingsure

Cum in me, bros.

Edited by Bluemoon
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I,  honestly,  can't see why you want to prolong the life of the server, it seems to be a very polished double edged sword to me, I'd also love to live constantly riding the world's greatest high, but heads up, that's not how life works.  

By shortening the duration of vanilla, you are effectively doing the following; increase the difficulty of raids in a "natural" manner; decrease the inevitable inflation of gold; keep a natural flow in community and mentality, due to the "new/hype" new content patch effect and how it affects the server; aforementioned  effect will last for a greater % of the lifespan of the server, render the community with an overall better experience assuming there's no backdraw on it; you can give the most  "casual" and "elite" player a more generic and healthy experience since the difference between the two will only increase over time in between content release... And so on so forth - you can first expect the same lifespan to have the absolute same effect, as it had on retail, if /everything/ is the same. It isn't. Please kindly stop trying to persuade the devs into a Blizzard development pattern, or is that what you're begging for when you use the steroid term "blizzlike"? It genuinely seems kinda hypocritical. 

In my eyes, the lifespan will first truly fit once the average 50% player (neither elite nor casual) isn't 100% prepared for the new content/patch, my guess is this is somewhere between 12-15 months. Only issue is that these people arent used to a server where they can't spend 23 years to achieve T1/MC bis, so whine threads are unavoidable. "It's not blizzlike", - when in fact it would be one of the only things that would be truly blizzlike (read: not a "deductive" blizzlike progression, but an experienced one) 

Edited by Nether
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2 hours ago, Nether said:

I,  honestly,  can't see why you want to prolong the life of the server, it seems to be a very polished double edged sword to me, I'd also love to live constantly riding the world's greatest high, but heads up, that's not how life works.  

By shortening the duration of vanilla, you are effectively doing the following; increase the difficulty of raids in a "natural" manner; decrease the inevitable inflation of gold; keep a natural flow in community and mentality, due to the "new/hype" new content patch effect and how it affects the server; aforementioned  effect will last for a greater % of the lifespan of the server, render the community with an overall better experience assuming there's no backdraw on it; you can give the most  "casual" and "elite" player a more generic and healthy experience since the difference between the two will only increase over time in between content release... And so on so forth - you can first expect the same lifespan to have the absolute same effect, as it had on retail, if /everything/ is the same. It isn't. Please kindly stop trying to persuade the devs into a Blizzard development pattern, or is that what you're begging for when you use the steroid term "blizzlike"? It genuinely seems kinda hypocritical. 

In my eyes, the lifespan will first truly fit once the average 50% player (neither elite nor casual) isn't 100% prepared for the new content/patch, my guess is this is somewhere between 12-15 months. Only issue is that these people arent used to a server where they can't spend 23 years to achieve T1/MC bis, so whine threads are unavoidable. "It's not blizzlike", - when in fact it would be one of the only things that would be truly blizzlike (read: not a "deductive" blizzlike progression, but an experienced one) 

You forgot #24hasmyvoteforsure at the end of your post. Please kindly edit your post to include the hashtag so the devs know you support the 24 month vanilla experience. 

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I've seen suggestions of 25months because that was the vanilla experience, but if you include that it took 77 days to kill Nefarian (assume that he is cleared on the day of release) + 154 days of Ragnaros being killed. Ok this figure isn't entirely accurate when you take into account that he was released when people were actually leveling up. So take into account the average of like, lets say 35days IRL for people to set up a 40man raid team with sufficient gear from blues from dungeons etc and leveling time. If we compare that Onyxia was slain in 69days. 

That means you will be looking at 77+119 = 196 days that it took these people to clear this content. So if we take into account that is lets say 6 1/2 months. Then 25-6.5 = 18.5months. This is how long I would expect to be doing vanilla content. 

We will not take AQ or Naxx here because that is content that, most of us private server junkies have never seen done properly. (Rebirth + Feenix as shit example). 

Now of course all these mathematics are not entirely accurate and also can be based upon assumptions or points of view. But there is really little need to have the server stay in MC or BWL until entire raid guilds get full BiS from that instance. Look at the gear of some of the elitist guilds like NOPE / Coalition from Anathema/Nost. They literally were BiS geared waiting for AQ. That shouldn't happen. The BEST guilds should be looking at attaining around 70-80% BiS and "casual" guilds should be looking at like 40-60%. Again based upon assumptions but you cant argue that walking into AQ with full T2 + every melee with DrakeFang etc is just shit. You want a challenge right? Well stop trying to delay the timelines and grow a pair.  I would honestly love AQ to be released when only the MT + 1 OT is full T2, maybe not even that. 

Edited by Eyedie
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Yes i agree on that.
The problem of private servers nowadays is that they can't stick to the timeline and they delay things to a point that everyone is full BiS when next raid gets released and then people complain its too easy.
Well vanilla WoW back then was made so that people weren't full BiS when new raids released and back then it was hard to know how to build your character anyway because the game was still fresh.
But even today if the timelines are not delayed even the best guilds will still struggle at least for a bit with new content.
But of course if things get delayed that's a diferent story.

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All trolling aside, I think 18 months is a good initial target. My raiding perspective is from live vanilla, so I haven't much insight on how quickly that shit will get cleared on CF, or any other private server, for that matter. I'm one of those people fortunate enough to be able to devote as much time to game as i'd like, so I'm sure I'll end up with a geared main who will be waiting on the next tier of raid content. Hypothetically, I'll love the game enough to always find something enjoyable to chase, even if it's just a pack of level thirties as they run for their lives. I know i'll have an alt, which i'll use for farming. Doing magic find runs in Diablo 2 is an exceptionally enjoyable chunk of nostalgia, so I know I'll enjoy farming on my mage... but how much and for how long? I'd like the opinions of those who have played and casually raided on private servers. Were you able to find yourselves sufficiency entertained to warrant a time extension of any magnitude?

Even then, there's also the variable of the other servers being broken in various ways, which Crestfall has postulated to fix or prevent. Maybe extending the time-frame of the hardmode versions of the raids would prevent most guilds from gaining full BIS before the next raid. I guess the question is, do you prefer to battle against the difficulty of a raid, or just rush through an easy raid as many times as possible before the next one releases? I'd prefer difficulty. Instead of just abbreviating the duration of the raid tiers, why not extend the difficult adaptation for a longer period of time? I guess there's only so much you can do to core mechanics while maintaining the integrity of experience. It's just, these short timelines seem to support the idea that raids will be on farm status within no time at all, so I suppose we need an idea of just how difficult these raids are going to be, and for how long. Just an idea. I'd like the game to unfold as it did in my youth, but this idea isn't an attempt at creating a "blizz-like" time-line. I just enjoy the game and would love to see it remain functional for as long as possible.

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TL;DR.... Personally, I like a steep learning curve when it comes to raiding since that what drew me to WoW. My understanding is that Blizzard tuned WoW in Vanilla based on formulas, tiered content difficulty, itemization, and server overall progression. What's difficult in my opinion is to provide a true Vanilla experience because of constant changes made to talent tree, to class spells, to formulas thorough several patches, to items, and these changes are numerous. We also have limited concrete data on these changes.

 

Challenges

  • We have no control over class trees and class spells since most changes include both client and server side: we are limited to patch 1.12 for class trees and talents.
  • Main existing data on Blizzard formulas are based on patch 1.12 since older data is not well documented; limited data set by theorycrafters
  • Providing balanced formulas for current itemization

 

What we do have

  • Progression data from Blizzard servers in 2004-2006
  • Content tunes in patch notes; adjustments to difficulty, bug fixes, etc
  • Itemization from www.archive.org

 

I strongly recommend focusing on Patch 1.12 Itemization, Talent Tree, Formulas, and Class Spells. What we can do is to provide controlled content releases then tune fights based on server progression. Any other adjustments are more of a hassle than it needs to be due to imbalances.

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