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Thrixsulpax

The grind

67 posts in this topic
1 hour ago, Malediction said:

Where does this number come from?

I am assuming that the 0.87 is the percentage of the attack to NOT be a crit. The 0.13 is the 13% crit chance he was talking about.

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45 minutes ago, Thrixsulpax said:

I am assuming that the 0.87 is the percentage of the attack to NOT be a crit. The 0.13 is the 13% crit chance he was talking about.

Yes.

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1 minute ago, Frost said:

Bingo.

The only situation where Arms is clearly the superior spec is when burst damage is needed. A 2-target cleave with Sweeping Strikes and Improved Overpower is great, but requires you to pool your rage and will probably have to eat afterwards, leaving you vulnerable to PvP if applicable, increasing downtime. If you have a healer, you will likely not be sticking to 2 mobs.

In a 4-target AoE scenario, Fury overtakes Arms because the flat 25% damage bonus (which also increases rage gains by 25%), 30% attack speed bonus (increasing auto attacks which drastically increases rage gain), Death Wish (a flat 20% damage bonus) and 20-25% bonus to Battle Shout (equivalent to about +1.5 Weapon Damage at level 36). Trying to use Sweeping Strikes + Whirlwind leaves you rage starved and underwhelming damage compared to Fury.

Has anyone actually theorycrafted this stuff? It's plain as day. I was actually leaning towards Arms being the better spec until I realized just how drastic those rage gains are for Fury.

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I'm gonna level as arms. Let's see who's gonna be 60 first 9_9

 

P.S If anything is gonna leave you with a disadvantage in PvP it's fury

Edited by Frost
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1 minute ago, Frost said:

I'm gonna level as arms. Let's see who's gonna be 60 first 9_9

I thought you were better than that, ohwell.

In any case, 1 - I'm not even leveling a Warrior as my first char. 2 - I'm going PVE first with friends. 3 - I don't tarnish my gaming enjoyment by rushing to 60.

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Swinging at players is pretty much the only thing Arms is better for. This value can vary, depending on whether you are PVP/PVE, want to do BGs at all, or how much of a ganking prick you want to be out in the world. This makes Arms a popular choice on PVP servers (aka most privates) but Arms has never been nor ever will be better at leveling/PVE than Fury. Fury nets you a better DPS, better rage, better uptime, far more weapon options available, with no restrictive weapon spec; it basically has everything going for it, with no negatives until you fight enemy players. On PVE btw, you're never forced to do so, meaning Arms lost its only advantage. Arms is quite decent as a DPS role in dungeons, but you're bound to tank most of these as you level up, so the advantage is lost. No one will care about your 2h Sweeping Strikes DPS when they're looking for a tank. And low level Fury can tank better, since it does not invest into any 2h talents or large crits.

Can this 10+ year old deceased horse, be put back in its coffin now? You're going back to a Classic server, where things are exactly as it was back then, so I don't know why things need to be re-contested as if they were new all over again. It's just like the Warlocks trying to argue what a top DPS build is. It's 30/0/21. It always was, and unless the server isn't Blizzlike, it always will be. Or Rogues trying to debate what build they should level as. Much like Fury, the answer is Combat, it always was, always will be. You take Sub to shank players. I'm not saying you shouldn't use other builds. Roll whatever you want. You don't have to be a certain build. Just don't try to pass it off as better/best, as if you need some kind of justification. You have free will. You can roll whatever you want.

Edited by Drain
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14 hours ago, Frost said:

@Undertanker Seems like you conveniently avoided to talk about the average dmg increase you gain from Sweeping Strikes compared to Enrage.

How am I avoiding this?

I was commenting on the statement saying Fury gave no upside til mid 30s and compared talents obtainable on a same level.  Impale at lvl 31 vs what you reach in the fury tree at 29.   The comparison is Enrage vs Impale.

And these comparisons only accounting for raw damage done, not even factoring in the 20%+ more rage per second you generate from the damage done alone in fury.

If you want to discuss Sweeping strikes, which is obtainable at level 35 (if incorporating the 5% crit from fury as mentioned before):

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#LbGhbIboZV

You have to compare it to what you can have at lvl 35 in fury: 

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#LZVVuhMxoz

Which gives lower execute cost, more damage on cleave, Death Wish, and starting to work into Flurry.

 

In regards to PVP, I only suggest taking Fury until 40.   Pre-30 you don't have Berzk stance, so stance dance for OP isn't an issue til after lvl 30, when you can then have that option in arms.  I'd rather just be able to pop Death Wish and drop your ass to execute phase really fast, which remember my executes cost less = do more damage if both specs are done at 15 rage (due to excess rage conversion).

Imp Overpower will also only be available when fighting a melee class, limited class benefit.  I still have Overpower in Fury, and will do close to same amount of damage on average.

Enrage + Deathwish is not class dependent and destroy casters and leather wearers.

The "if you had a healer" arms is better makes no sense either. Assuming a leveling partner since you have to assume they are always with you.  You have to give the healer to both sides of the argument.  In which case, BloodCraze isn't needed to mitigate the increase damage taken on a purposeful crit and you can then take booming voice instead to help in PVP finding druids and rogues, as well give more rage to you due to less times using Battle Shout, and less likely to lose it in a world pvp situation mid fight due to it dropping off.  Oh and Piercing Howl? - Hello.    Arms you are more likely to get kited if you get caught out of hamstring range.

At level 35 and before neither spec have weapon dependability so that argument is pretty much nil. (again assuming you took 5/5 cruelty) All 2Hs are viable for either spec and weapon speed does not matter.  Only DPS of the weapon.

My napkin math may or may not be correct, but should yield roughly the same result of 20%+ damage in Fury on white hits, as long as you use the same formula for both specs.

 

If there is anything else I am "avoiding" please let me know.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Undertanker
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I mean holy shit where to start... First of all you obviously get SS at lvl 30 not 35. So I dunno wtf youre on about when you say the only thing to compare enrage to is impale o.O

11 hours ago, Undertanker said:

Which gives lower execute cost, more damage on cleave, Death Wish, and starting to work into Flurry.

Ye all of these things are worse than SS. Can't believe you actually listed imp. cleave as good lol. Rank 2 cleave (lvl 30) does wep dmg + 10. With imp cleave (3/3) that'll be 12 damage extra xD

11 hours ago, Undertanker said:

In regards to PVP, I only suggest taking Fury until 40.   Pre-30 you don't have Berzk stance, so stance dance for OP isn't an issue til after lvl 30, when you can then have that option in arms.  I'd rather just be able to pop Death Wish and drop your ass to execute phase really fast, which remember my executes cost less = do more damage if both specs are done at 15 rage (due to excess rage conversion).

You really dont PvP alot do you. If you're not arms by the moment you enter STV (lvl 30) you'll get your ass beaten on so many levels. You talk about swapping stances for OP when in reality you need Tactical Mastery for intercept or berserker rage more than OP.

11 hours ago, Undertanker said:

Imp Overpower will also only be available when fighting a melee class, limited class benefit.  I still have Overpower in Fury, and will do close to same amount of damage on average.

You seriously wanna stand by your statement that only melee classes can dodge? Lets say your weapon overpowers for around 200 (does so at about lvl 30) my overpowers will on average hit for 300 dmg while yours will hit for around 200. You are right tho that overpower happens something like once every 20th swing. Unless you're fighting a rogue with evasion then he'll dodge more than half the swings.

11 hours ago, Undertanker said:

Oh and Piercing Howl? - Hello.    Arms you are more likely to get kited if you get caught out of hamstring range.

Honestly, if you don't get in range with either charge or intercept you're dead. But intercept is alot harder to pull of when playing low level fury since you'll basically have to either be in zerker stance already or save your bloodrage for intercept.

 

11 hours ago, Undertanker said:

At level 35 and before neither spec have weapon dependability so that argument is pretty much nil. (again assuming you took 5/5 cruelty) All 2Hs are viable for either spec and weapon speed does not matter.  Only DPS of the weapon.

Again you obviously don't wait 5 levels to get SS - so you'll be 30 when you get access to the weapon specs in arms. Btw let me tell you a secret; weapon speed does matter. What you are refering to is probably normalization, but not all warrior abilities are normalized + note that weapon base damage is still a part of the formula. Slow weapons are also important for kiting mobs between their auto attacks so you take as little damage as possible.

Edited by Frost
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11 hours ago, Frost said:

 

I mean holy shit where to start... First of all you obviously get SS at lvl 30 not 35. So I dunno wtf youre on about when you say the only thing to compare enrage to is impale o.O

 

...... read the entire thread.   Again, from commenting on a different person who stated only getting 5/5 cruelty rest arms, you are lvl 35 when you get SS.    My post also point out and reference: 

 

22 hours ago, Undertanker said:

If you want to discuss Sweeping strikes, which is obtainable at level 35 (if incorporating the 5% crit from fury as mentioned before):

before you went on your power trip.

Mind you, because you argue SS at 30, you don't get the 5% crit, so your whit hit formulas then need to be made using 8% crit instead of 13% crit which we did for the comparison of impale vs enrage which enrage was 20%+ better.

 

11 hours ago, Frost said:

You talk about swapping stances for OP when in reality you need Tactical Mastery for intercept or berserker rage more than OP.

...... Today I learned you can not be in Beserker stance unless you have TM.   How can I not use Beserker rage and Intercept.  Remember Imp Beserker rage is also in the talent tree for fury late 30s.

 

 

I'm done responding to this ignorance.

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17 minutes ago, Undertanker said:

I'm done responding to this ignorance.

Funny, cus ignorant is exactly what you are

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The worst part about levling a warrior are those levels between 10-30 with so few abilities and instant attacks. 

Fury increases your crit chance, rage gain and therefore dps.  those first 5 points in cruelty are almost worth more than those first 10 in any arms apec.

You can argue for SS at 30, it's a good point, but your time levling to 30 will be slower than that of fury.

Can spec either way at 40. Depending on weapons too. SS with MS /WW and cleave can be amazing.

2h fury with enrage and flurry is insane then add death wish paired with imp cleave as well...

No need to respec into other talents either. use whatever best weapon you find.

Also don't dicount that free extra hit slam gives yous (needs to be timed correctly)

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I've leveled as both fury and arms on different private servers.

Overall i find that fury does more damage if you can abuse enrage mechanic.

But for arms, TM is too useful for pvp servers, high crit chance OP can be used if you use sunder (sunder > heroic strike). Ability to stance dance between multiple adds with sweeping strikes and whirlwind with a quick OP if you get the proc.

Both specs are fine. Fury has a better dps output, arms has better utility and far better OH SHIT scenarios.

I general swap to fury at around 48 no matter what cause good 1 handers are easy to get while getting a good 2 hander is more difficult and RNG dependant. I also get TM which is my biggest gripe playing early fury.

I'd go fury if you were rushing to 60 but arms if you're going to be leveling with the masses.

 

 

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On 10/14/2016 at 0:11 PM, Volo said:

miss

dodge

dodge

parry

miss

dodge

you died.

Haha! Exactly this. Then you gotta run back, eat, try again. God forbid you agro two mobs at once. I'd call you a risk taker for attempting to stand your ground and wise for running away. At least pre 30's. :P

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To answer the OP: Warriors are, by an extremely large margin, the worst levelers in vanilla. You kill slow, you can't get away, unless you're a god of PvP everyone will win against when they gank you and the downtime is horrible.

 

On 10/16/2016 at 4:25 AM, Elicas said:

My advice is;

Make friends with a Mage around your level, get a few stacks of free food.
Make friends with a Druid questing in your area, try and get a Thorns buff.
Make friends with a Priest questing in your area, try and get a Fortitude buff.

While leveling, thorns is very powerful (mobs usually attack on a 1 second swing timer) and the extra health from Fort can make all the difference between living or dying. In the early stages, prioritise Stamina over Strength. This is because the amount of strength needed to reduce your 'swings to kill' is absurdly high, whereas every point of stamina counts. It's better to have 2000hp and kill stuff in 10 swings than to have 1200hp and kill stuff in 9 swings.

Stam AND Spirit gear is what you want early on as a Warrior. Silvered Bronze gear is amazing for Warriors. Keep in mind that Warriors and Rogues have a far higher rate of OOC health regen than the other classes do and extra Spirit boosts that OOC regen by a significant amount. Start looking for Str/Stam gear in your early to mid 30s so you can start doing real damage once you get Mortal Strike. Also, swing timer of mobs usually is 2 seconds.

 

 

Other random tips: never fight stuff that's higher level than you if you can help it. The best possible thing for you is to aim to only do green quest and kill green mobs. The loss of experience per mob and per quest is more, more, more, MORE than made up for by the extra killing speed and loss of downtime.

 

Regarding spec and the math up there. To put it nicely, you guys have no idea what you're saying and your math makes my eyes bleed.

 

Fury leveling has two meaningful damage talents: Cruelty and Enrage. Nothing else in the tree will make a significant difference in your damage output. Actually, the only other talent in the tree you'll even notice while leveling is Flurry, but your crit% will be so awful that Flurry won't proc much. Now you might say that Arms has is in the same boat since the only meaningful damage talents other than Imp. Overpower, 2h spec and your weapon spec. But the damage isn't the reason why you go Arms, the reason is Tactical Mastery. In vanilla, Warriors don't don't have a built-in passive to keep rage on stance swapping. Which means that those points in Tactical Mastery allow you to function as a Warrior. And I'm using the word "function", because if you don't have Tactical Mastery your performance as a Warrior just becomes abysmal. You want to interrupt a caster without TM? Sit in defensive stance or berserker stance. You want to Intercept? Hope your Blood Rage is off cooldown. Want to PvP? You can't kill anything. Want to tank? Have fun without being able to Charge and start pulls with rage or later on use Berserker Rage. TM is so important to Warriors and not having it is so crippling. I'm not eloquent enough to explain how crucial TM is to playing a Warrior in vanilla, but I'll try this: try imagining a Druid that can't shapeshift or a Hunter without a pet. That's a Warrior without TM.

 

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#LVMhb

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#LVMxdVVo

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#LqMxdVVo0uV

 

Where's the Impale? What's this guy thinking? You have 15% crit chance at 45 or so. 65% on Overpower. If you're fighting a green mob, you'll get an Overpower crit every minute or so. If you Overpower crit for 500 without Impale, you'll Overpower crit for 550 with Impale. 50 extra damage every minute. That's less than one DPS. But dude, where's the Deep Wounds? You some sort of crazy person, no Deep Wounds? Do you know how much Deep Wounds ticks for on a mob at lvl 30? At 50? Basically nothing. The damage is HORRIBLE. Bad, bad, bad, bad, bad. Take a guess how often the Deep Wounds damage will help you kill a mob 1 auto attack/Mortal Strike faster? The answer is almost never. I've leveled a dozen? Warriors as Arms with it and when I leveled an Arms Warrior without it, I realized just how meaningless it was. You don't need it for damage. And here's the crazy thing about Deep Wounds: it's actually detrimental when you're in danger or when you're trying to kill a hard mob or an elite since it breaks your fear so you can't run/bandage. So do yourself a favor and put the 8 points in more useful talents.

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On 11/3/2016 at 9:58 PM, Nocturn said:

The worst part about levling a warrior are those levels between 10-30 with so few abilities and instant attacks. 

Fury increases your crit chance, rage gain and therefore dps.  those first 5 points in cruelty are almost worth more than those first 10 in any arms apec.

@Zaroua You dont need TM for these lvls

On 10/29/2016 at 5:24 PM, Undertanker said:

when you are sitting, you have a 100% chance to be crit, and you will automatically stand up after being hit.  So you can manually trigger this extra 25% damage for 100% uptime!!!

I don't think you actually read everyone's responses, "makes my eyes bleed"...ok.

Guess you ignored the fact you can also re spec at 40?

But even continuing down the Fury tree, your damage output will be higher, yes Arms is better suited for PvP, but you wont be helpless with Fury and i doubt you will be pvping constantly while lvling, if that were the case then yeah, go Arms, obviously....

If you are ahead of the lvling curve, on a PvE server, or can still manage to PvP but avoid constant encounters with other players, the crit and rage gain and therefore dps are better down the Fury tree. (again learn to /sit....)

The next lvl is learning how to slam and specing into that, theres a free extra hit.

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Personally, I find leveling 2h fury to be the fastest for me.  DW fury feels very slow due to the miss/dodge/parries, and arms feels rather slow and rage starved.

 

If i were to level another warrior in vanilla, id go 2h fury.

 

Just my 2c

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6 hours ago, Nocturn said:

@Zaroua You dont need TM for these lvls

How are you going to tank? Run up to mobs hope you always do every pull with enough rage to get a threat lead? Hope you never have to wait between pulls for mana or whatever else? You don't have Berserker Rage and using Charge is only going to help to put up a Demo Shout. Could work if you're playing with a group of people covered in molasses.

How are you going to fight casters? Sit in Defensive Stance all day as soon as an area has spells involved? Let mobs heal themselves for 60% of their health bar or let them cast 60+ dmg spells on you?

What about once you get Berserker Stance? Are you going to be choosing to forsake Charge or Berserker Rage? What about Overpower?

 

It's true that you don't "need" TM to get through these levels. Hybrids don't need to heal themselves, the pet classes don't need their pets and Rogues don't need Stealth either. But why would they want to gimp themselves so hard? There's a reason why TBC gave Warriors a passive to keep a bit of rage on stance changes: because Warriors need to keep rage on stance change to perform decently.

 

As far as the math portion goes...

Quote

I Auto for 200 damage.  I Crit for 400 damage 13% of the time.   My Crit is increasing my average damage per hit by 52.  So I average my Auto for 252.

-snip-

Impale doesn't work on autos, only abilities. Not only that, Impale increases crit dmg BONUS, not crit dmg.

 

Another post has:

Quote

In a 2-target Cleave situation: You're essentially doing 200% damage for 5 attacks. Arms is higher during that burst, Fury is higher outside of that burst.

When soloing you use Sweeping Strikes in the following situation: against easy to kill green mobs that pose no threat to you as a damage boost, when an add shows up and you can't run away so you desperately try to kill it with the super rage efficiency of Sweeping Strikes, when you're fighting a mob with a pet, or you get a full rage bar > pull a second mob > wait for a mob to dodge> use Sweeping Strikes > Overpower > Cleave the mobs down. Outside of those 4 situations, a double pulls means you're running away or you're blowing all of your cooldowns to live or you're as good as dead. You sure as hell won't be using Cleave to kill mobs except for mobs with weak pets - even mobs 3 or 4 lower levels than you will have enough health survive a full rage bar worth of Cleave.

Quote

In a 4+ target AoE situation

This should read: "when you blow your Intimidating Shout and hope you can get away". An untwinked Warrior killing 4 mobs at a time? Maybe with Retaliation against dual wielding mobs or against mobs much lower level than you. But even then, it's just so inefficient that I'm having a hard time thinking of a quest where you both want and have to "AoE" 4 mobs at a time.

Quote

not even factoring in the 20%+ more rage per second you generate from the damage done alone in fury

That's nice, in a vacuum. In reality, you'll end up missing out on rage from Charge and then all the rage you save from TM when you have to stance dance for whatever reason (reasons being plentiful). Fury generates more rage through damage, Arms gives you more through Charge and saves a lot on stance swaps.

Quote

Imp Overpower will also only be available when fighting a melee class

Casters can and will dodge from time to time. Instant casts, being locked out, when out of mana, etc.

Quote

All 2Hs are viable for either spec and weapon speed does not matter.  Only DPS of the weapon.

Matters for Imp Overpower which is a decent portion of your damage. Matters for Heroic Strike when rage dumping against elites/bosses/+3 mobs (or even +2 when your weapon skill isn't close to being maxed).

Quote

20%+ damage in Fury on white hits, as long as you use the same formula for both specs.

More than that once you factor in Flurry's awful uptime.

 

Quote

Guess you ignored the fact you can also re spec at 40?

But even continuing down the Fury tree, your damage output will be higher, yes Arms is better suited for PvP, but you wont be helpless with Fury and i doubt you will be pvping constantly while lvling, if that were the case then yeah, go Arms, obviously....

If you are ahead of the lvling curve, on a PvE server, or can still manage to PvP but avoid constant encounters with other players, the crit and rage gain and therefore dps are better down the Fury tree. (again learn to /sit....)

I'm talking about pre-40. Once Arms maxes Cruelty and Fury starts getting points in TM, the "which spec is better" lines start blurring a bit unless you're on a PvP server.

 

Quote

The next lvl is learning how to slam and specing into that, theres a free extra hit.

Slam is nice when you're fighting 1 mob at a time and you have the spare rage after using Demo and/or Tclap and it's not a dual wielding mob. But it's only for a few levels before most people opt to respec Arms and it's around the time where you get your huge power boost from WW axe/Ravager/SM quest axe. Then there's the whole having to time it between your swing and against the mob's swing so you don't get pushback, but that's a fairly weak argument against the raw damage Slam offers. Arms can also use it without too much of a hassle with a sufficiently slow weapon.

 

Edited by Zaroua
comma for clarity, minor typo
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@Zaroua you make a lot of good points, a lot of what we're discussing here comes to play style.

I don't need TM for those early lvls because I like to level as fast I can and therefor skip dungeons all together. On a new sever roll out I'm usually ahead of most. Even if I wasn't on a new server there's really only Ulda and ZF that are worth the time to group up and go do if your goal is to lvl as fast as possible.

Still even if not, dungeon tanking is easy, regardless of fury or arms spec  TM is not going to make a difference here and I am not charging on every pull either, actually again, fury will increase the rage gain here.

A lot of people's arguments here are predicated on fighting multiple mobs... especially pre 40, why are you taking on more than 1 mob at these low levels? regardless of your damage output it's not worth the damage you would take and then having to bandage/eat. Again for a solo, fast leveler where you should be killing one mob at a time the crit and damage output of fury outweighs that of arms.

Once 40 you can go either way and yes the lines blur a little.

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5 hours ago, Zaroua said:

1- How are you going to tank?

2- How are you going to fight casters? 

3- What about once you get Berserker Stance? Are you going to be choosing to forsake Charge or Berserker Rage? What about Overpower?

4- When soloing you use Sweeping Strikes in the following situation: against easy to kill green mobs that pose no threat to you as a damage boost, when an add shows up and you can't run away so you desperately try to kill it with the super rage efficiency of Sweeping Strikes, when you're fighting a mob with a pet, or you get a full rage bar > pull a second mob > wait for a mob to dodge> use Sweeping Strikes > Overpower > Cleave the mobs down. Outside of those 4 situations, a double pulls means you're running away or you're blowing all of your cooldowns to live or you're as good as dead. You sure as hell won't be using Cleave to kill mobs except for mobs with weak pets - even mobs 3 or 4 lower levels than you will have enough health survive a full rage bar worth of Cleave.

5- This should read: "when you blow your Intimidating Shout and hope you can get away". An untwinked Warrior killing 4 mobs at a time? Maybe with Retaliation against dual wielding mobs or against mobs much lower level than you. But even then, it's just so inefficient that I'm having a hard time thinking of a quest where you both want and have to "AoE" 4 mobs at a time.

That's nice, in a vacuum. In reality, you'll end up missing out on rage from Charge and then all the rage you save from TM when you have to stance dance for whatever reason (reasons being plentiful). Fury generates more rage through damage, Arms gives you more through Charge and saves a lot on stance swaps.

More than that once you factor in Flurry's awful uptime.

6- I'm talking about pre-40. Once Arms maxes Cruelty and Fury starts getting points in TM, the "which spec is better" lines start blurring a bit unless you're on a PvP server.

I'll go through some of the points listed in your post:

1 - Easily. Tactical Mastery is not required for tanking. You can do just fine as Fury or Prot. Just like you said, waddle up to every mob or Charge > Sunder > Def Stance. It's not a huge deal.

2 - If you don't have Tactical Mastery, you're not Arms, and won't have Improved Overpower - thus no reason to stay in anything but Berserker Stance from 30+ where Pummel is available on demand anyway.

3- See #1 for Charge, #2 for Berserker Rage / Overpower.

4- #4 and 5 are referring to my post, and I was arguing against Frost's strategy about using SS against 2 mobs regularly as a faster method of questing. My argument was that it was inefficient, because you end up eating after every fight or risking a corpse run. So on this point we agree. Also, hitting 2 targets simultaneously = Cleaving, it doesn't always refer to the ability: Cleave.

5- Ties in with #4 - You seem to have missed the entire point of my post, which was to outline the fact that even while questing with a healer to eliminate downtime - SS + OP / WW is less efficient questing than a Fury Warr spamming Whirlwind on 4 mobs. You can stay in Berserker Stance and Whirlwind to your heart's content as you soak up a ton of rage. Missing out on the extra 6 rage from Charge means nothing. You can still use the rage you gain from Charge while in Battle Stance, you'll most likely need it to re-apply Battle Shout anyway. And again, if you're not Arms - no Overpower, no need to stance dance.

6- I disagree. Once Fury starts getting points in Tactical Mastery, there is no other spec. Arms is worthless at this point because you start gaining some real crit % for better flurry uptime. MS hits harder but unless you're in a PVP group that needs some MS debuff spread, your overall damage is far better as Fury.

The rest of your post I agree with.

Edited by Malediction
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It's actually pretty simple. Those 5 points in cruelty are worth 10 maybe even more points in Arms at those early levels.

After 40, all that crit and those quick attacks now paired with points in TM from the arms tree make Fury the best regardless. 

Others have pointed out how you can still PvP and Tank with it as well. And any argument for SS pre 40 on a properly scripted, rage starved sever is just void. And after 40 again, Fury really still does more damage, as has been proven multiple times in the posts on this page so i think we can put the argument to bed (even though we're way off topic of original post anyway :/) but this is assuming the easiest and fastest way to level. Again if more focused on pvp or grouping up there are other options.

My Spec (this is with a 2h the whole way and using the /sit)

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#LZVVzuMx  Level 31 spec

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#LVhbbIbZVVzuMgoVo Spec to 60

Notice the 2 points in improved slam. When timed right this will give you a free hit. Time it as soon as you see the mobs health drop (Vanilla has a lag where the mobs health will drop before your swing animation starts)

On the arms side, any points in improved HS, weather its an Arms or Fury build are just a total waste of points. 5/5 deflection is a must (When you parry an enemy's attack, your hasten your next attack known as "Parry Haste" by 50%. So you want to parry an enemies attack).

Only need 2 points in TM since you'll mostly be in Berserk stance anyways and this will just help keep that extra rage after a charge or swap for OP.

You could take a point or two out of improved two-hand weapon specialization and put them into improved berserker rage for that extra rage gain too.

Edited by Nocturn
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6 hours ago, Nocturn said:

Notice the 2 points in improved slam. When timed right this will give you a free hit. Time it as soon as you see the mobs health drop (Vanilla has a lag where the mobs health will drop before your swing animation starts)

To be fair, it doesn't matter what your animation does. The only thing that matters is your swing timer. You can use an addon to track this.

 

You shouldn't slam when you see the mobs health drop, you should slam right after your swing timer ends. The difference is the time between the server sending you information. When you do the swing timer method you only need to know when you've send information to the server, if you wait until you see the mob's health drop then you've been waiting for the server to send information back to you.

 

On Crestfall (and in retail) it is very important to use Slam after your swing timer because Spell Delay is at play. If you wait until you see the health of your enemy drop then additionally to your ping you can also waste up to 400ms waiting for the Spell Delay tick to arrive.

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16 hours ago, Nocturn said:

@Zaroua you make a lot of good points, a lot of what we're discussing here comes to play style.

I don't need TM for those early lvls because I like to level as fast I can and therefor skip dungeons all together. On a new sever roll out I'm usually ahead of most. Even if I wasn't on a new server there's really only Ulda and ZF that are worth the time to group up and go do if your goal is to lvl as fast as possible.

Still even if not, dungeon tanking is easy, regardless of fury or arms spec  TM is not going to make a difference here and I am not charging on every pull either, actually again, fury will increase the rage gain here.

Skipping dungeons is a horrible idea. Warriors are the most gear dependent class in vanilla and they're the class that struggles the most with hard quests and elite mobs. This means that the gear from dungeons and the extra xp is very important to have a smooth leveling experience when there's a lot of quests you won't be able to complete on your own. You also have to consider that leveling quickly as a Warrior means you'll be in very high demand for dungeon groups and being able to clear those dungeons in 20-30 minutes instead of 40-50 minutes when you're forced to take it slow makes a massive difference. Having the DPS being to start DPSing as soon as you Charge in or as soon as mobs get to you and then start AoEing or multidotting 5-6 seconds into the pull cuts a lot of time from a run compared to having to wait for a few seconds to even start doing dmg because you can't rely on TM and Charge/Berserker Rage to keep your bar full.

 

Also, fastest way to level as a Warrior in vanilla is to have a melee pain train group with a Shaman healing and other Warriors/Rogues and just 2h tanks stuff with Sweeping Strikes/Cleave with WF totem carrying your group. 15 minutes SM Armory/Cath runs give really, really good xp/h.

14 hours ago, Malediction said:

I'll go through some of the points listed in your post:

1 - Easily. Tactical Mastery is not required for tanking. You can do just fine as Fury or Prot. Just like you said, waddle up to every mob or Charge > Sunder > Def Stance. It's not a huge deal.

2 - If you don't have Tactical Mastery, you're not Arms, and won't have Improved Overpower - thus no reason to stay in anything but Berserker Stance from 30+ where Pummel is available on demand anyway.

3- See #1 for Charge, #2 for Berserker Rage / Overpower.

4- #4 and 5 are referring to my post, and I was arguing against Frost's strategy about using SS against 2 mobs regularly as a faster method of questing. My argument was that it was inefficient, because you end up eating after every fight or risking a corpse run. So on this point we agree. Also, hitting 2 targets simultaneously = Cleaving, it doesn't always refer to the ability: Cleave.

5- Ties in with #4 - You seem to have missed the entire point of my post, which was to outline the fact that even while questing with a healer to eliminate downtime - SS + OP / WW is less efficient questing than a Fury Warr spamming Whirlwind on 4 mobs. You can stay in Berserker Stance and Whirlwind to your heart's content as you soak up a ton of rage. Missing out on the extra 6 rage from Charge means nothing. You can still use the rage you gain from Charge while in Battle Stance, you'll most likely need it to re-apply Battle Shout anyway. And again, if you're not Arms - no Overpower, no need to stance dance.

6- I disagree. Once Fury starts getting points in Tactical Mastery, there is no other spec. Arms is worthless at this point because you start gaining some real crit % for better flurry uptime. MS hits harder but unless you're in a PVP group that needs some MS debuff spread, your overall damage is far better as Fury.

The rest of your post I agree with.

1. It's not required. But it will slow your group down significantly, both pre and post Berserker Rage. Pulls get messy and it's easier to lose aggro, getting aggro back is harder since you can't rely on Mocking Blow as much, DPS tends to have to wait a bit longer to do their thing which means more dmg taken which means more time spent drinking. Like I said, it's obviously doable but the difference between tanking with and without TM is night and day. I'd say that in 5 mans, TM makes a bigger difference than Defiance does for tanking.

2. Pummel is 38. You also don't get Flurry until 35 which means that the extra 3% crit from Berserker Stance most certainly isn't worth the extra damage taken and the loss of Charge while grinding. And even then I'm not certain going from 10% crit to 13% crit is worth the 10% dmg unless you need the Berserker Stance abilities.

3. Overpower is good as long as you're using a 2h, which you damn well should be even as Fury so you can Slam and Overpower and have a bigger dmg/rage ratio on your HS before 40. The extra damage from Overpower alone should trump the 3% crit from Berserker Stance; also the stuff from #2.

5. Even if you have a healer, why would you pull 4 mobs at a time? None of the healers have good AoE damage capabilities so you're relying on Whirlwind doing pitiful damage and Cleave. Add Sweeping Strikes if you're Arms. Unless you're fighting really weak green mobs, I don't see how fighting 3-4 mobs at a time is worth it even with a pocket healer. It's not like the extra mana spent on healing the Warrior is going to be better spent as healing than it is as damage.

6. You don't start getting crit gear until your mid to late 50s. You probably won't reach 20% crit as Fury until you've shed a good portion of your leveling gear. Yes, Enrage is great and yes Flurry is good when it does proc and half the proc isn't wasted. Arms also has the advantage of being able to both max out Cruelty and then go down the Prot tree and pick up Last Stand and Defiance to tank lvl 60 stuff and PvP and do world stuff like gathering or finishing up quests without the need to respec.

13 hours ago, Nocturn said:

It's actually pretty simple. Those 5 points in cruelty are worth 10 maybe even more points in Arms at those early levels.

After 40, all that crit and those quick attacks now paired with points in TM from the arms tree make Fury the best regardless. 

Others have pointed out how you can still PvP and Tank with it as well. And any argument for SS pre 40 on a properly scripted, rage starved sever is just void. And after 40 again, Fury really still does more damage, as has been proven multiple times in the posts on this page so i think we can put the argument to bed (even though we're way off topic of original post anyway :/) but this is assuming the easiest and fastest way to level. Again if more focused on pvp or grouping up there are other options.

On the arms side, any points in improved HS, weather its an Arms or Fury build are just a total waste of points. 5/5 deflection is a must (When you parry an enemy's attack, your hasten your next attack known as "Parry Haste" by 50%. So you want to parry an enemies attack).

Only need 2 points in TM since you'll mostly be in Berserk stance anyways and this will just help keep that extra rage after a charge or swap for OP.

You could take a point or two out of improved two-hand weapon specialization and put them into improved berserker rage for that extra rage gain too.

Cruelty increases your damage output a little bit early on. But it's not even 5% more dmg. Deflection will increase your damage by about 2 or 3% but also increase your survivability. Imp Charge will give you way more rage than UW and I've been talking about TM for a few posts so I won't repeat myself.

You don't get "all that crit" after 40 as Fury. There's barely any crit gear before the mid 50s once BRD opens and LBRS open up to you.

You can't PvP without TM. You can gank someone at half health, no mana and a mob on them and you'll have a decent chance of scoring a kill. But outside of that, you're dead meat. There isn't really an argument for SS aside from saying that it's slightly better than what Fury can do against really weak mobs or when you have no choice but to fight two mobs at once. Your time while leveling will be spent actively trying to avoid finding yourself in situations where SS would be a good button to push. Fury hasn't "been proven multiple times" to be better than Arms - there's only been some very faulty and very wrong "math" posted. Fury most likely has the edge for killing 1 mob at a time, but Arms most likely has the edge for sustain, utility, PvP, tanking, hard quests and survivability. Easiest and fastest way to level is to do super fast dungeon runs in SM and otherwise do 20-30 minutes clears for the other dungeons (although Maraudon and up take a while to do no matter how quickly you get through the pulls).

Parry haste is up to 40% of a swing's timer being shaved off, with some other caveat involved. It does increase your rage generation and your damage and your survivability and it certainly is better than Imp HS. On that I agree with you 100%.

With Imp Charge and Charge rank 3, you'll generate 21 rage per use. If you have left over rage from a previous pull, that means a lot of wasted rage on stance swaps. The extra points help a lot, but 2 points is the bare minimum for Mocking Blow/Pummel/Shield Bash/Intercept.

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Again I pretty much agree with you. Just remember I only advocate Fury over Arms if you are purely soloing for the most part. If you have a really good group of friends/guildies levling with you  and speed running dungeons then I agree with everything you say. A lot of people usually solo lvl though.

And again, I only advocate Fury over arms if you abuse the /sit macro. Almost like a miny cheat.

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