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Thrixsulpax

The grind

67 posts in this topic
4 hours ago, Zaroua said:

TM makes a bigger difference than Defiance does for tanking.

No. Looking at your posts in both this and the Prot Pally dilemma thread, you vastly underestimate the value of Threat modifier talents. Also, Mocking Blow isn't something you should "rely" on due to its long cooldown. If you're using it often, you're doing something wrong or you have bad luck with dps not having any self control.

4 hours ago, Zaroua said:

It's not like the extra mana spent on healing the Warrior is going to be better spent as healing than it is as damage.

... What? A single heal casted will bring the Warr back up to full HP. Ofcourse it's mana better spent than using expensive damage spells that hybrids have. A Shaman dpsing, using magma and windfury totem, and healing the Warrior would nuke down 4 mobs pretty damn fast. Other healers, sure not so much, but it's still a net gain compared to whacking on 1 mob at a time.

5% parry = 3% more damage? I would love to see your math on this, since it's so much better than everyone else's apparently. You're also saying a Warrior spamming whirlwind is 'pitiful damage', math please. And advocating an Arms warrior to spec into Last Stand over Enrage? That doesn't suddenly allow you to tank better, that just means you're terrible at PVP - the only reason to go Arms.

I don't really know what you're trying to prove with all of these wildly inaccurate statements and anecdotal evidence from your 20 minute 2-hander tanking SM runs.

Edited by Malediction
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3 hours ago, Malediction said:

No. Looking at your posts in both this and the Prot Pally dilemma thread, you vastly underestimate the value of Threat modifier talents. Also, Mocking Blow isn't something you should "rely" on due to its long cooldown. If you're using it often, you're doing something wrong or you have bad luck with dps not having any self control.

Warrior A has TM and Imp Charge but no Defiance, Warrior B has no TM or Imp Charge but has Defiance. Both do 100 dmg per auto attack with a 1.8 speed weapon and are lvl 60. I'm assuming it takes 1 second between casting Charge, getting to the mob and using your first auto. Assuming 5 rage per auto.

 

Pull starts with 0 rage


Warrior A Charges in, goes into DStance mid charge and hits the mob with a Sunder and an auto for 468 threat. He gets hit for about 275 and generates 3 rage. On his second weapon swing he gets enough rage to use another Sunder for a total of 936 threat in about 3 seconds (312TPS) . He gets his third auto for 1066 threat. He gets hit and generates 3 rage. He gets hit fourth auto and a Sunder for 1534 threat in about 6.4 seconds (239TPS).

Warrior B Charges in, goes into DStance mid charge and auto attacks for 145 threat after the first GCD. He gets hit for about 275 and generates 3 rage. He does a second auto attack for a total of 290 threat. He gets hit again and gains another 3 rage. He does a third auto and then a Sunder for 812 threat in about 4.6 seconds (176TPS). He does a fourth auto for 957 threat in 6.4 seconds (149TPS). He gets hit again for another 3 rage and has 9 leftover rage.

Pull starts with 25 rage

 

Warrior A Charges in, goes into DStance mid charge and hits the mob with a Sunder and an auto for 468 threat. He gets hit for about 275 and generates 3 rage. On his second weapon swing he gets enough rage to use another Sunder for a total of 936 threat in about 3 seconds (312TPS) . He gets his third auto for 1066 threat. He gets hit and generates 3 rage. He gets hit fourth auto and a Sunder for 1534 threat in about 6.4 seconds (239TPS).

Warrior B starts in DStance and waddles in on over and the mob meets him partway there but it takes two and a half seconds for contact. He opens up with a Sunder and an auto for 468 threat. He gets hit 275 and generates 3 rage. He Sunders again for 845 threat. He autos again for 990 threat in about 4.3 seconds (230TPS). He gets hit for another 3 rage. He autos and Sunders again for 1458 threat in about 6.1 seconds (239TPS).

TM gets things moving faster, bursts more threat in so the group can start DPSing earlier and does better in low rage environments. Defiance catches up quickly when there's a lot of damage taken. I'm not going to bother modeling Berserker Rage vs 5-6 targets, but Defiance should win out vs TM if there's a few seconds to get a threat move off on every target.

You will lose aggro. Someone in your group will chain crit. Your attacks will get avoided. You will avoid incoming attacks. You will have mobs chain stunned leaving you rage starved. There will be summoned adds. There will be times when you want to Taunt>Mocking Blow>Taunt to save rage. Your taunts will get resisted. Your Challenging Shout will be on cooldown. The Hunter pet, the Shaman totems or that guy with 0 situational awareness will pull extras. It happens. Mocking Blow helps deal with it. Not having TM makes your use of Mocking Blow to recover from mishaps far more situational. DPS not keeping it in their pants or "doing something wrong" on it has no bearing on this: Mocking Blow is an ability you will use often no matter how good you are because shit happens when you have a lot of moving parts.

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... What? A single heal casted will bring the Warr back up to full HP. Ofcourse it's mana better spent than using expensive damage spells that hybrids have. A Shaman dpsing, using magma and windfury totem, and healing the Warrior would nuke down 4 mobs pretty damn fast. Other healers, sure not so much, but it's still a net gain compared to whacking on 1 mob at a time.

A max rank Holy Light, Healing Wave, Greater Heal or Healing Touch isn't enough to top off a Warrior with halfway decent gear (aka not in full Of the Tiger crap). For Enh and Ret Paladins, that's a large chunk of their mana pool.

Let's say you do fight 4 mobs at a time with an Enh Shaman buddy at lvl 40ish. His Magma Totem totem is going to be about 20% of his mana pool, two Chain Lightning is going to be about 40%, Str + WF totem another 15%. And then one Healing Wave that won't top you for another 20%. Let's be generous and say that it leaves him at 10% mana. That's what, 2500 dmg over 10 seconds? So the Shaman's autos and everything the Warrior does has to finish off the mobs. Mobs in Badlands have about 1750 health at 40, so you need to burn through 7000 health, but the Shaman does 2.5k so you need to 4500 dmg. Two Whirlwinds doing 250 dmg a hit and the rest is Cleave + Windfury and auto attacks. Ok, good job you killed 4 mobs in less than 15 seconds and now the Shaman has to drink for 20. Or you could just walk up to a single mob at a time, drop a Bloodthirst + WW and Stormstrike + Frost Shock and kill it in less than 5 seconds with barely any mana spent or damage taken.

 

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5% parry = 3% more damage?

You get 4 parry hasted attacks every 100 mob swings. Mobs swing every 2 seconds. Assuming a 3.0 speed weapon, that means every 200 seconds you cut off 4.8 seconds' worth of your swing timer. AKA you swing 2.4% faster which is within the 2-3% dmg I wrote.

 

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You're also saying a Warrior spamming whirlwind is 'pitiful damage', math please.

At around 40 with a good blue weapon you'll be doing around 250-300 dmg per hit. On 4 targets with a 10 second cooldown, no talent to boost the raw damage. Blizzard does double the damage over 8 seconds, Hellfire does over 3 times the dmg (over 4 times with rank 2 Hellfire at lvl42) and Flamestrike does about the same damage with a 3 second cast time. I don't even understand why saying Whirldwind damage is pitiful for AoE is even a point of contention.

 

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And advocating an Arms warrior to spec into Last Stand over Enrage? That doesn't suddenly allow you to tank better, that just means you're terrible at PVP - the only reason to go Arms.

I'm advocating Arms and I'm saying that going into Prot for Defiance and Last Stand is an option for Warriors who want to opt for being able to tank Maraudon, ST, BRD, LBRS and the 60 instances while being able to PvP while being able to quest while being able to farm. It's an option that isn't readily available to Fury since Fury would have to pick between TM and Defiance, something Arms doesn't have to do.

 

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I don't really know what you're trying to prove with all of these wildly inaccurate statements and anecdotal evidence from your 20 minute 2-hander tanking SM runs.

You're assuming my statements are wildly inaccurate without attempting to disprove anything. You're also not even attempting to refute anything I've written except by downplaying it.

Go run SM with a Shaman, 2-3 Arms Warriors and fill the rest of the slots with Combat Rogues. Drop a WF totem and watch how fast everything dies when the Warriors are all just using Sweeping Strikes on cooldown with Cleave + WF.

 

As a side note, formatting is kinda of a PITA on this forum.

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9 hours ago, Zaroua said:

Fury most likely has the edge for killing 1 mob at a time

That's pretty much all i'm arguing for here. A smart SOLO levling warrior will not pull multiple mobs, not worth the downtime eating/drinking and will focus on green mobs. What everyone on this forum and most forums/guides in general are talking about are giving advice to the solo leveler.

9 hours ago, Zaroua said:

Easiest and fastest way to level is to do super fast dungeon runs in SM and otherwise do 20-30 minutes clears for the other dungeons

 

50 minutes ago, Zaroua said:

Go run SM with a Shaman, 2-3 Arms Warriors and fill the rest of the slots with Combat Rogues. Drop a WF totem and watch how fast everything dies when the Warriors are all just using Sweeping Strikes on cooldown with Cleave + WF.

Again you are right, but all your posts so far have been based around the fact that you are leveling not just with a group of people, but more skilled players who i assume are friends/guildmates willing to help and lvling at the same pace as you. We cant argue over what's best then because that is so situational for every class (solo vs grouped content). We (as in the others who have given their opinions on specs so far) are just talking about the fastest for that single player. All your points are solid though when talking about dungeon running IF and only IF you have that great group and skilled other players always with you.

45 minutes ago, Zaroua said:

I'm advocating Arms and I'm saying that going into Prot for Defiance and Last Stand is an option for Warriors who want to opt for being able to tank Maraudon, ST, BRD, LBRS and the 60 instances while being able to PvP while being able to quest while being able to farm. It's an option that isn't readily available to Fury since Fury would have to pick between TM and Defiance, something Arms doesn't have to do.

 

42 minutes ago, Zaroua said:

Warrior A has TM and Imp Charge but no Defiance, Warrior B has no TM or Imp Charge but has Defiance. Both do 100 dmg per auto attack with a 1.8 speed weapon and are lvl 60. I'm assuming it takes 1 second between casting Charge, getting to the mob and using your first auto. Assuming 5 rage per auto.

Okay now this thread is starting to turn into optimal dungeon spec/rotations. We should create a new thread for this because this is one of my favorite things to discuss. But i'll address some points:

4 hours ago, Malediction said:

Mocking Blow isn't something you should "rely" on due to its long cooldown. If you're using it often, you're doing something wrong or you have bad luck with dps not having any self control.

Mocking blow should be used more often than a lot of warriors think. Taunt>Mocking>Taunt to save rage. Since this is thread is about the "grind" of vanilla, i'll focus my points on tanking those dungeons on the way to 60 (a full prot spec warrior is a little different) When fighting multiple mobs, the crux of dungeon tanking, a lot of warriors jump straight into their tanking rotations popping sunders.

@Zaroua pretty much covered everything with the use of TM and why Mocking blow is important. Putting threat gains aside it's actually simpler than you think weather you have TM or not. Starting from 0 rage, after a charge and switching to def stance use your taunt on first target, then go "tab" sunder your next target(s) (since you didn't sunder the first target you'll have enough for the next target), come around and pop your next taunt again on the first kill target. By this point it should be dead or close to it and you don't need to worry about it anymore and it'l be a lot easier focusing on the other mobs continuing your rotation. 

If you are 60 and Fury, and follow my spec which i posted earlier, you have at least 2 points in TM as well so being able to mocking blow is just as viable. There is no need to waste points in defiance unless you are raid tanking (But obviously once you start dungeon farming at 60 you'll be running with prot speced warrior anyways).

At 60 again (Arms, Fury or Prot spec), you should actually start a charge with a 2h, swap to Zerk and bloodrage and WW. That burst alone will be enough to hold aggro on mobs while your group AOE's or goes all out. Then swap back to 1h/shield and again taunt and tab target sunder/revenge (Mocking when needed).

There's more to talk about, like gun/bow pulls, BS and Demo shout. Thunder Clap etc, but again, lets maybe start another post.

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1 hour ago, Nocturn said:

Again you are right, but all your posts so far have been based around the fact that you are leveling not just with a group of people, but more skilled players who i assume are friends/guildmates willing to help and lvling at the same pace as you.

I've never had any issues leading pugs into doing the right thing. Every once in a while you'll get with the "DON'T TELL ME HOW TO PLAY!!!!!!1!!" type, but the vast majority of people I've pugged with will adapt really quick once you explain what to do and why, provided you follow up by playing well yourself. I think part of the issue here is that too many people have never seen what a quick and smooth run and so don't have a frame of reference to understand just how much of difference there can be for dungeon runs. And pugs most certainly can perform well and will if you mark stuff and assign the marks and tell them what you need them to do.

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1 hour ago, Zaroua said:

I've never had any issues leading pugs into doing the right thing. Every once in a while you'll get with the "DON'T TELL ME HOW TO PLAY!!!!!!1!!" type, but the vast majority of people I've pugged with will adapt really quick once you explain what to do and why, provided you follow up by playing well yourself. I think part of the issue here is that too many people have never seen what a quick and smooth run and so don't have a frame of reference to understand just how much of difference there can be for dungeon runs. And pugs most certainly can perform well and will if you mark stuff and assign the marks and tell them what you need them to do.

I personally have no problem with any of this. I think my responses prove I know my stuff. I'm suggesting what to do for the average person. I've also seen too many people spend hours, even days looking for the right group to run a dungeon while it would have been quicker to just continue questing in those 3 or so hours. (ive seen MTs and even guild leaders struggle with this, it can go either way really). If you have the group then yeah, go for it no problem, but again only if you have all the quests related to it as well. (And if you never had any issues with pugs or even friends, regardless of your skill, you are one lucky s.o.b)

A fast solo leveler who knows the best quest routes and how to grind efficiently as well is arguably just as fast (well I'm arguing faster). You will still get gear from quests and drops too. 

We can keep going back and forth on this, think there are no more points to make here.

 

Edited by Nocturn
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Thread related to leveling, posts information relevant to 60. sigh... Ok.

12 hours ago, Zaroua said:

Warrior A has TM and Imp Charge but no Defiance, Warrior B has no TM or Imp Charge but has Defiance.

Warrior B Charges in, goes into DStance mid charge

Your scenario is flawed. First, you can't just compare TM to Defiance in a vacuum. If you have Defiance, you're likely to have Improved Sunder Armor, Shield Spec and maybe Imp Revenge (stun does extra threat). Add these together, along with Shield Slam if 40+ and Warrior B moves ahead. Second, if Warrior B doesn't have Tactical Mastery - why is he dumping 15 rage? If he's Prot, that threat can be used various ways before switching to Def Stance; If he's Fury, then I agree he won't be catching up to Warrior A even with Enrage. At the 6.4 second mark, he'll be exactly 367 Threat behind, but gaining slowly due to higher auto attack / revenge damage and the gap is likely less if you include threat from Unbridled Wrath and Blood Craze.

Also, I'm not sure why you didn't use Battle Shout in the beginning instead of Sunder? If you charge, Def-stance, Battle Shout simultaneously when your group is within range, you can get off some nice initial threat. 55*5 * 1.3 = 358 Threat vs 338 for Sunder. It's spread evenly between mobs but it's worth using atleast once to gain some threat against the healer, or spam if your group is AoEing.

12 hours ago, Zaroua said:

two Chain Lightning ... Stormstrike + Frost Shock and kill it in less than 5 seconds with barely any mana spent

If your healer doesn't have atleast a partial int gear set at 40, I wouldn't consider them a healer.A DPS buddy sure, then you burst down mobs 1 by 1, but like I said it's a net gain (even if small) to let the warrior Whirlwind and Cleave to their heart's content.

Also, this is exactly what I had in mind when I mentioned those powerful, mana expensive spells. At 40, Healing Wave 7 costs 340 mana, heals for ~800. Chain Lightning costs 380 mana, does 650 damage total on 3 mobs. Take your 4 mob scenario with 7000 hp collectively. If the healer was only wanding/auto attacking alongside the Warrior, spending mana only on healing or long-term buffs (Blessing of Might/Windfury Totem), that will likely take away ~1250 hp over 4-6 auto attacks (assuming 3.00 weapon speed, 250 dmg per swing over a 20 second period). The Warrior will Whirlwind - 300 * 1.25(Enrage) = 375 * 4 = 1500 every 10 seconds. 4250 HP left, would require 3 Cleaves (300*1.25 + 18 * 2 = ~2400 dmg, 1850 hp remaining) and 5 Auto Attacks spread evenly = 1875 damage. 4 mobs dead over 21 seconds with maybe 1 or 2 healing spells from the healer that can be spread out to maximize Mp5 uptime. Feel free to correct me if I've gotten anything wrong.

Contrast that to bursting down 1 mob every 3-4 seconds, using Shock, SS and Chain Lightning on CD and you'll eventually spend a full 30 seconds drinking.

12 hours ago, Zaroua said:

I'm advocating Arms and I'm saying that going into Prot for Defiance and Last Stand

I'll agree Defiance is very nice, but again - you cripple yourself without Enrage as an Arms Warrior, especially in PVP. Plus, Prot talents aren't required to tank Mara, ST, BRD or BRS. Yes, Fury can't reach both, but then - would you ask a Prot Warrior to DPS Scholo?

On a positive note, thanks for posting your math in the scenarios. It's helpful to draw actual conclusions instead of "what if"ing ourselves to death, and benefits anyone reading the thread. But I think I agree with Nocturn that there's not a whole lot left to add to this conversation.

Edited by Malediction
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34 minutes ago, Malediction said:

Thread related to leveling, posts information relevant to 60. sigh... Ok.

Your scenario is flawed. First, you can't just compare TM to Defiance in a vacuum. If you have Defiance, you're likely to have Improved Sunder Armor, Shield Spec and maybe Imp Revenge (stun does extra threat). Add these together, along with Shield Slam if 40+ and Warrior B moves ahead. Second, if Warrior B doesn't have Tactical Mastery - why is he dumping 15 rage? If he's Prot, that threat can be used various ways before switching to Def Stance; If he's Fury, then I agree he won't be catching up to Warrior A even with Enrage. At the 6.4 second mark, he'll be exactly 367 Threat behind, but gaining slowly due to higher auto attack / revenge damage and the gap is likely less if you include threat from Unbridled Wrath and Blood Craze.

Also, I'm not sure why you didn't use Battle Shout in the beginning instead of Sunder? If you charge, Def-stance, Battle Shout simultaneously when your group is within range, you can get off some nice initial threat. 55*5 * 1.3 = 358 Threat vs 338 for Sunder. It's spread evenly between mobs but it's worth using atleast once to gain some threat against the healer, or spam if your group is AoEing.

If your healer doesn't have atleast a partial int gear set at 40, I wouldn't consider them a healer.A DPS buddy sure, then you burst down mobs 1 by 1, but like I said it's a net gain (even if small) to let the warrior Whirlwind and Cleave to their heart's content.

Also, this is exactly what I had in mind when I mentioned those powerful, mana expensive spells. At 40, Healing Wave 7 costs 340 mana, heals for ~800. Chain Lightning costs 380 mana, does 650 damage total on 3 mobs. Take your 4 mob scenario with 7000 hp collectively. If the healer was only wanding/auto attacking alongside the Warrior, spending mana only on healing or long-term buffs (Blessing of Might/Windfury Totem), that will likely take away ~1250 hp over 4-6 auto attacks (assuming 3.00 weapon speed, 250 dmg per swing over a 20 second period). The Warrior will Whirlwind - 300 * 1.25(Enrage) = 375 * 4 = 1500 every 10 seconds. 4250 HP left, would require 3 Cleaves (300*1.25 + 18 * 2 = ~2400 dmg, 1850 hp remaining) and 5 Auto Attacks spread evenly = 1875 damage. 4 mobs dead over 21 seconds with maybe 1 or 2 healing spells from the healer that can be spread out to maximize Mp5 uptime. Feel free to correct me if I've gotten anything wrong.

Contrast that to bursting down 1 mob every 3-4 seconds, using Shock, SS and Chain Lightning on CD and you'll eventually spend a full 30 seconds drinking.

I'll agree Defiance is very nice, but again - you cripple yourself without Enrage as an Arms Warrior, especially in PVP. Plus, Prot talents aren't required to tank Mara, ST, BRD or BRS. Yes, Fury can't reach both, but then - would you ask a Prot Warrior to DPS Scholo?

On a positive note, thanks for posting your math in the scenarios. It's helpful to draw actual conclusions instead of "what if"ing ourselves to death, and benefits anyone reading the thread. But I think I agree with Nocturn that there's not a whole lot left to add to this conversation.

I don't have threat values for the lower ranks of Sunder. So I'm using the version I do have the values for, which is the rank you use at 60. If you can provide the actual values for the lower rank (not some random guesswork or extrapolation) then it wouldn't be difficult to get better threat values for sub-60 situations.

 

You can certainly compare TM to Defiance but I think a better comparison would've been to compare both TM and Defiance vs only TM since Arms can pick them both when 50+ but Fury can only pick one of them. Also worth noting that the reason why I even wrote all that was to refute what you said about me underestimating the value of threat talents: threat talents are nice but TM is just as good and even better in some cases.

 

I didn't try to model for Battle Shout for a couple of reasons: if you Charge in odds are that you won't hit your whole group with it meaning the threat generated will be pitiful. Even if you do hit 6 targets with it, Warrior B still generates less threat than Warrior A. Also somewhat difficult to pull off correctly, although accounting for poor play isn't something that should be considered strongly, I still think it should be mentioned.

 

I'd also like to point out that bringing up a Warrior with a full Prot spec has nothing to do with the discussion at hand since this is about leveling specs; I will gladly mock anyone who tries to argue that leveling as a Prot Warrior is better in any way, shape or form than Arms or Fury.

 

I also calculated the theat Warrior B would generate if he stayed in Battle Stance to spend his initial rage on a Sunder and found that it was inferior to what he'd get by swapping to DStance mid charge.

 

Regarding the healer buddy scenario: if you kill everything evenly, you'll still need a good 15-20 seconds to kill the mobs from the Warrior's damage alone. However, we've both failed to properly account for the time spent trying to gather 4 mobs vs just walking up to 1 mob at a time. And let's be honest here: there aren't that many areas in the game where you can easily gather up 4 melee mobs or 3 melee mobs and a caster/archer quickly and in a tight clump and without having to deal with knockdowns, stuns, nets, runaways, etc. Just thinking about doing a proper model for this makes my head hurt so I'll say this: a Shaman only using Storm Strike and Frost Shock and timing his abilities to get 1 or 2 ticks of mana regen between casts is going to take a long time to go OOM. Also, I'm thinking that having a totem farm and having the Shaman pull individual mobs to the farm while the Warrior is killing stuff would probably the most efficient way to go about pairing up with a Shaman.

 

Not having Enrage to finish up 55-60 isn't the end of the world. An Arms Warrior getting Defiance instead of Enrage is very obviously trading PvP/soloing potential for tanking potential. There's no arguing that, the argument is that if you do want to pick up the Prot talents instead of Enrage, you have that option and that option will make things much easier for you if you decide to tank a lot at 45+. It's a jack of all trades build that most Warriors were actually using 12 years ago since lower Prot was complete garbage at the time.

 

And finally I don't understand the "asking a Prot Warrior to DPS Scholo" comment. A DPS Warrior - Arms or Fury - won't be doing damage in lvl 60 instances while still wearing leveling gear. Unless there's WF totem present that is. You just don't get enough rage and your crit and hit just aren't high enough, which is a compounding issue. I certainly wouldn't want to bring a fresh 60 Warrior in greens as a DPS to the lvl 55+ instances unless I had no other choice. And a Prot Warrior's job isn't to do damage in the first place. And an Arms Warrior with Defiance will have an easy time tanking those 55+ instances compared to a Fury Warrior while still being able to do a decent job at PvP and while still being able to solo.

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9 minutes ago, Zaroua said:

timing his abilities to get 1 or 2 ticks of mana regen between casts is going to take a long time to go OOM

... But that's just not correct. Either your mana will drain very quickly using Shocks + Stormstrike / Chain Lightning, or it won't do enough damage to make it worth using at all if you wait 10-15 seconds inbetween shocks for mana regen without spirit / mp5 gear. At the end of it, you'll still have to heal the Warrior, or if you overtake the Warrior in threat because Shaman spells deal ridiculous amounts of it - you lower his damage because of no Enrage + rage intake, plus now you have to heal 2 people.

19 minutes ago, Zaroua said:

I will gladly mock anyone who tries to argue that leveling as a Prot Warrior is better in any way, shape or form than Arms or Fury.

Nobody is suggesting anyone to level as Prot. Besides, you brought this up yourself when you tried to model a comparison between a Warrior with TM vs Defiance.

24 minutes ago, Zaroua said:

you won't hit your whole group with battle shout

You can charge, D-stance, Battle Shout nearly simultaneously with your group still in range. Battle Shout has a 20 yd range (30 with Booming Voice), Charge has a 25yd range. Chances are you'll be in range.

Enrage increases all damage by a flat 25% in tanking, pvp and solo scenarios - why would you not take this? Justifying an Arms/Prot build because 'thats what we did 12 years ago when talent trees were completely different' is a really bad excuse. You do not need Defiance unless you are tanking raids. To tank up to BRD, you do not need a single piece of tank gear besides 1h + shield. For 60 5-man instances, a set of plate / tank gear as Arms/Fury is just fine.

14 minutes ago, Zaroua said:

DPS Warrior won't be doing damage in lvl 60 instances while still wearing leveling gear

... So you expect every warrior to be a tank regardless of spec? That's unrealistic, and infact I would say negligent because a Warrior in quest greens is more useful as a dps than as an undergeared Tank in the wrong type of gear. Kind of like asking a Prot-specced / Prot-geared Warrior to be a DPS for that same dungeon. See the comparison now?

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57 minutes ago, Malediction said:

... But that's just not correct. Either your mana will drain very quickly using Shocks + Stormstrike / Chain Lightning, or it won't do enough damage to make it worth using at all if you wait 10-15 seconds inbetween shocks for mana regen without spirit / mp5 gear. At the end of it, you'll still have to heal the Warrior, or if you overtake the Warrior in threat because Shaman spells deal ridiculous amounts of it - you lower his damage because of no Enrage + rage intake, plus now you have to heal 2 people.

Why would a Shaman use Chain Lightning on a single target for a normal mob? Makes absolutely no sense. Why are you even suggesting that or bringing it up? Why would you mention waiting for 10-15 seconds for mana regen ticks when you only need 5 seconds for your first tick or 7 seconds for a second tick? What does threat even have to do with it? It's not like it's going to make a significant difference if the Shaman gets swung at every now an then when he randomly pulls aggro on a mob because he crits everything while the Warrior misses everything. It's actually beneficial in terms of mana to share a small portion of the damage while leveling because of OOC health regen. Again, no idea what that first paragraph is even about.

 

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Nobody is suggesting anyone to level as Prot.

You suggested as much when you started talking about "the scenario being flawed" because having Defiance means going all the way down to Shield Slam. Why would a Warrior have Shield Slam while leveling? Why level as Prot? Why mention Shield Slam or Improved Sunder if you're not implying that the Warrior is leveling as Prot? Why bring leveling as Prot spec into the discussion in the first place?

 

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Besides, you brought this up yourself when you tried to model a comparison between a Warrior with TM vs Defiance.

You can have TM, Defiance, both or neither while leveling. I expended on that point in the first place because you said that I was "underestimating the value of threat modifier talents". TM is good, Defiance is good, both are great, neither is pretty bad. Arms has the option to pick up both and thus make tanking the higher level dungeons easier while still having a decent PvP spec and while still being able to solo. However, Fury can't have it all.

 

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You can charge, D-stance, Battle Shout nearly simultaneously with your group still in range. Battle Shout has a 20 yd range (30 with Booming Voice), Charge has a 25yd range. Chances are you'll be in range.

Most of the time when I actually do use Charge in a dungeon, my healer and the ranged DPS are sitting down crying about me pulling too fast while the melee DPS are looting mobs. If you're talking about a slowpoke tank that always waits for everyone to be a full health and full mana before pulling and waits on everyone to be standing at the ready, then yes it's far more likely that slowpoke Warrior will hit his entire group with Battle Shout. But then again, you're trying to argue in favor of tanking without TM. It's doable. I've done it. I've seen other Warriors do it. And not having TM is horrible. If you have TM then this doesn't matter. Yes, Charge > Battle Shout > DStance will generate a wee bit of extra threat but it still isn't enough to compare to TM. Note that I'm comparing TM to Defiance, not TM to nothing like a low level Fury Warrior has to deal with. If you take away Defiance from Warrior B in the example I listed above, his threat output on the pull falls even further behind a Warrior with only TM and Imp Charge.

 

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Enrage increases all damage by a flat 25% in tanking, pvp and solo scenarios - why would you not take this?

Because Arms has 2h spec to partially cover for the damage (or Impale/Deep Wounds, but I don't recommend taking those unless you're planning on doing a ton of PvP while leveling), it has Imp Hamstring and Mortal Strike for better PvP and has Imp Charge and TM to get extra rage before the Fury Warrior also gets TM and Imp Charge. Leveling isn't only about how fast you kill stuff. More damage sure as hell helps a lot, but raw damage isn't the only thing that counts and Arms offers far more utility than Fury does for all those little things that make life easier while leveling. Especially on a PvP server where you're as good as dead without TM against most classes that get the drop on you.

 

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Justifying an Arms/Prot build because 'thats what we did 12 years ago when talent trees were completely different' is a really bad excuse.

Justifying an Arms/Prot build because it's effective is not an excuse, much less a bad one. People used this spec when WoW was new because it's good and because it works. Integrating it into a leveling build is also good and also works. Whether or not the advantages are attractive to a given person is another matter entirely. I like to tank, I'm as good as it gets at tanking, I get through dungeon runs super fast unless I have to carry an obnoxiously bad player, the gear I get from dungeons helps me level tremendously, the gear I get from dungeons helps me do higher level dungeons easier, the extra xp from all the dungeon quests I do is super time efficient for leveling and the extra xp from dungeons allows me to hit 60 more smoothly since I can skip some of the harder 50+ quests. So to me, being able to tank 45+ dungeons well is a huge boon and an Arms/Prot spec is a good and cheap in terms of respec costs. Someone who just doesn't want to group until 60 wouldn't want to go Arms/Prot and would be far better served going for Enrage for better soloing. Different specs and playstyles for different people, which is the point of this thread. Discussing which is better is also the point of this thread, which is why I'm arguing against Fury and in favor of Arms.

 

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You do not need Defiance unless you are tanking raids.

You don't really need Defiance to tank most raid bosses either since the DPS can just do less damage. But it sure helps.

 

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To tank up to BRD, you do not need a single piece of tank gear besides 1h + shield. For 60 5-man instances, a set of plate / tank gear as Arms/Fury is just fine.

If you try to tank Maraudon or ST with Of the Tiger gear, you and your healer are going to have a bad time. If you try to tank the 60 instances with Of the Tiger junk (btw when I say that I mean bad leveling gear with little to no stam on it, not necessarily green gear of the tiger), you're going to have an even worse time. It's obviously doable, but having more Stam/armor and a bit of extra defense sure makes a difference.

 

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So you expect every warrior to be a tank regardless of spec? That's unrealistic, and infact I would say negligent because a Warrior in quest greens is more useful as a dps than as an undergeared Tank in the wrong type of gear.

Yes, I do. A fresh 60 Warrior should be tanking instances instead of making a fool out of himself by trying to DPS. Shadow Priests should be healing instead of running out of mana a third of way into the first pull of the instance. Same thing with Ele and Enh Shamans. Paladins should be healing, or at least tanking if they can't find a Warrior. These classes are really, REALLY bad at doing damage in dungeons when they hit 60. So instead of making everything harder on the whole group, they should try to fill a role that will make runs go far more smoothly. Also, have fun gearing up in 60 dungeons as a DPS Warrior when you have to compete with another Warrior for gear. "LF1M tank DM North all Warrior DPS gear reserved" is not a good party advertisement either.

 

An undergeared tank is still going to be infinitely more useful than a fresh 60 DPS Warrior: you won't be able to get a run started without a tank but no one will realistically struggle because they don't have a Warrior in greens in their run to carry them.

 

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Kind of like asking a Prot-specced / Prot-geared Warrior to be a DPS for that same dungeon. See the comparison now?

How is this a valid comparison? A fresh 60 Prot Warrior can't DPS a lvl 60 dungeon but he can tank it. A fresh 60 Fury or Arms Warrior can't DPS a lvl 60 dungeon without WF, but he can tank it. And don't even try to argue that a fresh 60 Arms or Fury Warrior does good dmg in a dungeon compared to a fresh 60 Rogue, Hunter, Mage or Warlock. Having +1 or 2% chance to hit and a solid 15% (Fury) or 20% (Arms with axe/polearm) chance to crit means your damage is going to be a joke until you have a lot of blues and a nice 55+ dps 3.6+ speed weapon to go along with the rest of your gear.

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@Zaroua

What does Beserker rage have to do with tanking in these low level 5 mans for rage to open a fight with?      Do you mean blood rage?  Tanking 5 mans, you rarely get to charge into a group or you'll pull unwanted pats or the next set of mobs.  Gun pulling, blood rage, battle shout (while still in range of all party members) is how you should open your pull.   Also "how will you have enough rage for a start of a pull?"  You should practice pooling your rage when you have established aggro on a mob for the next pull.  More info in tank guides.  The only struggle you will have is stance dance > mocking blow which late 30s imp beserker rage will give you 10 rage to counter this limitation.

If impale does not effect autos, that makes enrage vs impale difference even in more favor of enrage but over 27.5% then since you also get more rage per second from Enrage.

You quote me then talk about flurry, my leveling guide clearly says to respec at 40 to arms and why.    You still have over power and will be doing more damage all the time with it because of Enrage.   Also, overpower is not a "Major portion of your dps".    Yes casters can dodge, but at a very low percent and shouldn't be banking on a 5 percent dodge trigger for your PVP win.   This is more of a rogue killer for the tards that go evasion on you, or Hunters who by muscle memory go monkey when you get in melee range.

Just because you are fury spec does not lock you out of battle stance.   

To your random stuff about people not being able to dps a 5 man, a fresh 60 warrior should remain arms as sweeping strikes does wonders on trash unless you are going full CC on every pull.

Informative information has been provided long ago in this thread, with rhyme and reason, and plan ole' fashionable math.

No reason to continue to try to turn chicken salad into chicken shit.

Edited by Undertanker
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4 hours ago, Undertanker said:

@Zaroua

What does Beserker rage have to do with tanking in these low level 5 mans for rage to open a fight with?      Do you mean blood rage?  Tanking 5 mans, you rarely get to charge into a group or you'll pull unwanted pats or the next set of mobs.  Gun pulling, blood rage, battle shout (while still in range of all party members) is how you should open your pull.   Also "how will you have enough rage for a start of a pull?"  You should practice pooling your rage when you have established aggro on a mob for the next pull.  More info in tank guides.  The only struggle you will have is stance dance > mocking blow which late 30s imp beserker rage will give you 10 rage to counter this limitation.

If impale does not effect autos, that makes enrage vs impale difference even in more favor of enrage but over 27.5% then since you also get more rage per second from Enrage.

You quote me then talk about flurry, my leveling guide clearly says to respec at 40 to arms and why.    You still have over power and will be doing more damage all the time with it because of Enrage.   Also, overpower is not a "Major portion of your dps".    Yes casters can dodge, but at a very low percent and shouldn't be banking on a 5 percent dodge trigger for your PVP win.   This is more of a rogue killer for the tards that go evasion on you, or Hunters who by muscle memory go monkey when you get in melee range.

Just because you are fury spec does not lock you out of battle stance.   

To your random stuff about people not being able to dps a 5 man, a fresh 60 warrior should remain arms as sweeping strikes does wonders on trash unless you are going full CC on every pull.

Informative information has been provided long ago in this thread, with rhyme and reason, and plan ole' fashionable math.

No reason to continue to try to turn chicken salad into chicken shit.

Berserker Rage is one of the most important tanking tools for a Warrior. Using it when a pull starts quickly gives you a full rage bar which helps tremendously for tanking. The only problems with its use are the short duration, the fact that it requires Berserker Stance and the issues related to using it before the pull or during the pull. Which is one of the places where TM shines the most since you can dump your initial rage, swap to Berserker Stance and use Berserker Rage and go back to DStance and get 10 seconds of near unlimited rage.

 

It's most definitely not all that rare to be able to use Charge in 5 mans. While the majority of the pulls will be ranged pulls or CC pulls, being able to Charge happens often enough. RFC, WC, BFD, RFK, Gnomer, RFD, SM armory, Maraudon and ST all have a large amount of pulls that Charge can be used for. The other dungeons also have a decent amount of pulls where you can Charge. The 60 dungeons tend to be almost exclusively about ranged pulling, that's for certain.

 

You can't always have enough rage to start a pull. Between mana breaks, looting, harvesting, discussing assignments and rebuffing, there will be plenty of times where you'll start with 0 rage. Of course, quick and efficient runs won't have as much downtime, but if you're pugging - which is what a lot of people will do while leveling - then you're gonna have a lot of pulls where all your rage decayed from having to wait for something. It happens. Imp Charge and TM help a lot with that. Also, sometimes you play with good DPS who will force you to keep pumping threat into everything until the very end or you'll have your group AoE down pulls and you won't be able to slack until everything is almost dead. And Imp Berserker Rage won't do anything to help get Mocking Blow off without TM since Mocking Blow require Battle Stance.

 

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If impale does not effect autos, that makes enrage vs impale difference even in more favor of enrage but over 27.5% then since you also get more rage per second from Enrage.

There's no "if" involved. Impale is only supposed to work on your actual abilities. Impale is pretty bad for leveling, so bad in fact that I advocated against spending the 8 talent points needed to max it. So it's a given that Enrage provides a bigger DPS boost than Impale does, that much was never contested.

 

Let's pick apart your "math".

 

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No talents but cruelty:

I Auto for 200 damage.  I Crit for 400 damage 13% of the time.   My Crit is increasing my average damage per hit by 52.  So I average my Auto for 252.   

Let's factor in your suggestion:

With Impale + cruelty (obtained at level 31)

I Auto for 200 damage.  I crit for 480 damage 13% of the time.   My Crit is increasing my average damage per hit by 62.4.  So I average my Auto for 262.4.  (4.12% damage increase average)

With Enrage + Cruelty (obtained at level 29) - Using my guide above we have 100% Enrage up-time due to /sit

I Auto for 250 damage.  I crit for 500 damage 13% of the time.   My Crit is increasing my average damage per hit by 65.  So I average my Auto for 315.  (25% damage increase average)

First, you won't crit 13% of the time unless you're fighting mobs that are lower level than you. Against mobs your level, you'll have a base crit chance of about 4%, counting what little agility you'll have. But 13% is an easy number to understand: 5% "base" crit rate, 5% from Cruelty an 3% from Berserker Stance.

 

No talents but Cruelty:

200 dmg per swing. With 13% crit chance, that's an average of 226 dmg per hit.

With Impale + Cruelty

Same as above since Impale doesn't work on autos.

With Enrage + Cruelty

250 dmg per swing. With 13% crit chance, that's an average of 282.5 dmg.

 

So Pinkbeard's numbers were right for the first and third scenario. But this is so primitive that, to me, it's laughable. Let's make this a bit more realistic.

 

Here are the assumptions:

Warrior A using this spec http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#LZVVzu0voV while Warrior B is using this spec http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#LqMxdVVo0. In other words, A is Fury and B is Arms. They're both using the same gear and are of the same race. They both have the same average base damage of 200 every 3.6 seconds. Their weapon skills and defense skills are the same. In fact, everything is the same except their talents. We'll say they're both fighting a lvl 39 mob with 1700 health.

For Flurry, I'll be estimating the DPS gain like this: 3.6 speed weapon goes down to 2.77 seconds under Flurry, which means swings come 0.83 seconds faster or 2.49 seconds per Flurry proc. With 13% crit that's a swing time of about 3.28 seconds. If someone with a lot of time on their hands wants to accurately model for Flurry uptime vs wasted Flurry uptime from mobs dying with charges left vs parry haste vs parry haste wasting autos because of Slam vs proc overlap vs swings taken in Battle Stance under 10% crit, feel free. But I sure as hell won't bother, suffice to say that this is "close enough".

We'll be ignoring glancing blows, misses, parries and dodges for a bit of extra simplicity (unless someone REALLY wants to model the DPS of a lvl 39 Warrior who sits down to get crit but gets missed by the mob). Fury would also have 4.25 more AP for about 1 or 2 extra damage per swing. Which makes no difference so I didn't include it below but I still want to point it out here. Note that this hugely favors Warrior A because Warrior B doesn't benefit from Overpower. Quick napkin math puts Imp Overpower to be worth around 3-4% extra damage. Because Overpower crits tend to translate into a very quick mob kill, the procs tend to cause huge swings in your kill time, which also translates into earlier Executes. Can also fish for Overpower procs by using Hamstring or Sunder, but we're also going to exclude that. Poor Warrior B.

 

Warrior A

Charge > Demo + auto (1474) > Berserker Stance > sit > auto (1191.5) > auto (909) > auto (626.5) > Slam (283.5) > Execute: total time of 12.48 seconds.

 

Warrior B

Charge > Demo + auto (1469) > Rend (1425) > auto (1194) > auto (963) > auto (732) > Slam (452) > Slam (172) > Execute: total time of 15.6 seconds.

 

So a difference of 3.12 seconds, meaning Warrior B takes 25% more time per mob than Warrior A.

 

Now let's spice it up a bit and let's assume 5% miss, 5% parry, 5% dodge on the mob. We'll ignore back to back dodges on on mobs for Overpower (I'm lazy, feel free to do it yourself if you want to get more accurate numbers). When there's a miss/dodge/parry, the Warrior A loses all of his dmg, so he does 85% of his dmg (226>192 first swing and 282.5>240 for Enrage). He doesn't have TM so he ignore Overpower procs even on the first hit because he wants to go in Berserker Stance asap. For Warrior B, his damage goes down from an average of 231 to 216. Also ignoring the effects of miss/dodge/parry for Rend since you have plenty of time to recast it and it doesn't affect kill time.

 

Warrior A

Charge > Demo + auto (1508) > Berserker Stance > sit > auto (1268) > auto (1028) > auto (788) > Slam (497) > Slam (206) > Execute: total time of 14.14 seconds.

 

Warrior B

Charge > Demo + auto (1484) > Rend (1440) > auto (1224) > auto (1008) > auto (792) > Slam (550) > Slam (308) > Execute: total time of 15.6 seconds.

 

This time a difference of 1.46 seconds, meaning Warrior B takes 10% more time per mob than Warrior A.

 

Again to make this perfectly clear: this isn't meant to be a definitive comparison between Arms DPS and Fury DPS. This is to show that 1) the 25% more damage "math" was completely off the mark and 2) Fury, while being better for damage isn't that much better for single target damage. When you start taking into account the extra dmg taken, the PvP vulnerability, loss of tanking potential and loss of cleaving potential, Fury becomes far less attractive than Arms does.

 

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Yes casters can dodge, but at a very low percent and shouldn't be banking on a 5 percent dodge trigger for your PVP win.   This is more of a rogue killer for the tards that go evasion on you, or Hunters who by muscle memory go monkey when you get in melee range.

You're backpedalling. You said that Overpower would only be available vs melee classes. Which isn't true. Hence the rectification. Also, Evasion is amazing vs Warriors when leveling because the Warrior will only have 60% ish crit chance and won't do enough damage with the two or three overpower crits to kill the Rogue. Unless the Rogue has no Stamina that is. But hey, if a Rogue with no Stam tries to gank a Warrior and pops Evasion, that's him being dumb, not Evasion being bad vs Warriors per se.

 

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Just because you are fury spec does not lock you out of battle stance.   

It kinda does. You're pretty much forced to pick a stance and stick with it. If you want to swap stances you need to have an instant rage button available (Blood Rage, quest armor, rage pots, Imp Berserker Rage) otherwise you're gonna need a few seconds to get the rage needed to use any anything. Swapping from Berserker Stance to Battle Stance for an Overpower proc when you don't have TM is a really, really bad idea unless you're already completely out of rage.

 

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To your random stuff about people not being able to dps a 5 man, a fresh 60 warrior should remain arms as sweeping strikes does wonders on trash unless you are going full CC on every pull.

Sweeping Strikes is more or less 5 extra hits per pull. More than less because you usually pair it with Mortal Strike and/or Overpower procs. Fact remains that when you hit 60 your crit is garbage, you're most likely using a Gatorbite Axe, you have no basically no hit% or any weapon skill unless it's from your racial. When you're not taking damage from AoEs during a pull, you'll be generating next to no rage because you'll be hitting like a wet noodle and no rage means you won't be using Mortal Strike on cooldown and that means your damage is going to so bad that you'll be competing with the tank instead of the other DPS. Once you shed most of your leveling greens for 60 blues - even not so great blues - your damage becomes quite good. But not until then.

 

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Informative information has been provided long ago in this thread, with rhyme and reason, and plan ole' fashionable math.

What information? A lot of opinions not backed up by any facts. Little to no reasoning provided for said opinions. For example:

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my leveling guide clearly says to respec at 40 to arms and why

You say to put points into improved Cleave. From 30 to 39, 3/3 Improved Cleave provides a whooping 12 extra damage. For an ability that's only worth using in a specific situation that you want to avoid at all costs. You don't pick Improved Slam. You're actually encouraging Warriors to fight two mobs at once: you won't have the rage generation to Cleave/WW them down in an efficient manner (even vs green mobs) which means a lot more downtime for not that much more DPS. You don't even explain why Arms is so much better than Fury at 40: surely Mortal Strike on its own can't make up for the "25%" extra damage Fury does over Arms? I mean, Bloodthirst isn't THAT much worse than Mortal Strike, so why even bother with the respec? You're not even attempting to back your claims up with logical explanations.

 

I will give you this though: telling people not to dual wield is definitely the right thing to do since dual wielding is atrocious while leveling.

Edited by Zaroua
reworded a sentence regarding Overpower
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On ‎2016‎-‎11‎-‎26 at 5:29 PM, Undertanker said:

tldr1.gif

Hahahaha, I just have to chime in. This thread is gold!:D

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So basically fury or arms with a 2h 20-60, sword and board pre 20, don't level as prot unless you're a masochist. Having done that once I can tell you it's like trying to cut a tree down with only your teeth. Get WW axe as soon as possible. In terms of xp per hour dungeons aren't great, but they're an investment (so always have a shield on you) Warriors are the most gear dependent class save maybe rogue, so every ten levels or so do dungeons get gear and your leveling experience will go much much smoother. Avoid pvp, I'd recommend blacksmithing, especially as it helps you ease into plate at 40. Leveling a warrior is worth it, don't let anyone tell you otherwise. On servers without cheap respec (like most and this one), warriors are rare so you'll always get into dungeons almost instantly. Also, warriors are the only class that can viably fill two roles (dps and tank). In pve go dual wield fury for dps, prot for tank, and 2h arms for pvp. That's really all you actually need to know to get started.

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6 hours ago, Keter said:

On servers without cheap respec (like most and this one), warriors are rare so you'll always get into dungeons almost instantly.

Warriors are the #1 most played class on Nostalrius, Kronos 1/2 and Elysium. They'll be the most played class here too, but finding one that's willing to tank is the rare part. So if you intend to level a warrior, try to keep an updated 1h + shield as you go.

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42 minutes ago, Malediction said:

Warriors are the #1 most played class on Nostalrius, Kronos 1/2 and Elysium. They'll be the most played class here too, but finding one that's willing to tank is the rare part. So if you intend to level a warrior, try to keep an updated 1h + shield as you go.

The rare part is finding one that's willing to tank and somewhat decent at it. There's plenty of keyboard turning, Battle Stance tanking with a 1h+shield, skill clicking Warriors who are more than willing to tank.

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That's the nice part for me when playing a warrior. I usually log on and instantly get an invitation to tank a dungeon, the thing I enjoy most in WoW and I don't even have to LFG :D

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