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Elicas

Do you support PvP flagging for World Bosses?

Do you support PvP flagging for World Bosses?   54 members have voted

  1. 1. How would you like to see world bosses handled on the PvE server?

    • No flagging of any kind.
    • Flag everyone in the World Boss subzone as soon as they enter it.
    • Flag anyone who attacks the boss.
    • Flag anyone who targets the boss.

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29 posts in this topic

As per the discussion in another thread, how do you think world bosses should be handled, specifically just for this server.

This is one of the only places where you can actually be griefed on the PvE server. While same faction griefing (running level 1 same faction alts into Kazzack for example) will be present on both servers (and hopefully a bannable offence), the PvE server you can also cross faction grief by doing essentially the same thing. It isn't unusual to find a raid standing just out of range, unflagged for pvp, sending in alts to die one at a time and heal Kazzack until you either wipe or give up trying to down the boss. It becomes a test of endurance and staying online, rather than fighting for world bosses. It's one of the major reasons Blizzard eventually phased world bosses into their modern day incarnations, as they were never able to handle griefing on the PvE servers effectively.

Do you support any changes, or prefer 100% blizzlike all the time.

Edited by Elicas
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No, mainly because of typical PvE server faction imbalance. RIP horde.

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Took me a while to find it, but here is Blizzard's official stance on World Boss griefing:

"The introduction of Outdoor Raid Encounters in the most recent patch has added an entirely new dimension to the World of Warcraft. Players are now allowed to participate in high-end content without the time investment necessary to hack ones way to the bottom of the dankest dungeons. The addition of these encounters opens up new game dynamics, both good and bad. While we do not wish to detract from the positive aspects of these encounters, we feel it necessary to address certain negative aspects to preserve the gameplay experience for all.

In contrast to Outdoor Raid Encounters, dungeons have been created as instances to allow multiple groups of players to participate in difficult encounters simultaneously and without being hindered by the actions of other like-minded players. Outdoor raid encounters have no such allowances and as such, open themselves up to instances of player collision.

An example of this player collision can be seen with one of the Outdoor Raid bosses, Lord Kazzak. While we expect a certain amount of competition for such high-end creeps, some players have been abusing Kazzaks special abilities with the specific intent to harass other players. At this time, our In-Game Support Staff (Game Masters) will be taking action against players who do not allow other groups to combat Lord Kazzak as intended by the Development Team.

Below are some examples of what we will and will not be taking action against. These examples are broken down by PVP (Player vs. Player) and PVE (Player vs. Environment), as the differing rulesets affect our stance. Keep in mind that these are extreme situations used to clearly illustrate what we do and do not find acceptable. Not all instances will be as cut-and-dry as those listed below. Game Master discretion will be used in grey-area occurrences.

PVE Ruleset

When a group of players has engaged Lord Kazzak, any other players interfering in the encounter may be given a warning, regardless of faction, as in the examples below:
 

  • A group of Alliance characters has legitimately engaged Lord Kazzak and a level 1 Horde character engages Lord Kazzak as well (Level 1 Horde player receives warning).
  • A group of Horde characters has legitimately engaged Lord Kazzak and a level 1 Horde character engages Lord Kazzak as well (Level 1 Horde player receives warning).
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17 minutes ago, DeeMarie said:

So in that respect, 100% Blizzlike and suspension for anyone interferring :ph34r:

Okey, how do you think this will work?

Will we have game masters flying around the bosses banning the IP (not just account, creating accounts is far to easy here so you would have to ban the IP) of any one who runs in to stop another group from attacking the boss?

Or will we just have to hope that some one is recording it, to make it possible to ban the IP later? 

This would just create a lot of drama from people getting banned and it would consume a lot of time from GMs that should be spent helping players.

Also figthing bosses like Azuregos is just hell on PvE. You end up in a tag war the first time it spawns, where raids will just hope to get lucky and get the tag. Thats not fun at all, even if you dont like to PvP, having a tag off is way worse. 

 

35 minutes ago, Gry said:

No, mainly because of typical PvE server faction imbalance. RIP horde.

This is a legitimate concern for the first kill, but for EVERY other kill the fact that you have random spawn times etc. makes it more about mobilizing than faction inequality. The fact is that even though there might be more alliances on, you will most likely not see more than 1 raid going because of loot, if the horde faction cant even mobilize 1 raid your problem isnt the PvP aspect but the fact that you cant mobilize 1 raid. 

 

 

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The mobilizing speed is related to faction imbalance. Dominant faction reacts faster and has more players online who can join the raid and fill all the roles and scout for the boss spawn.

But I will play alliance so pretending faction imbalance has nothing to do with this topic it's ok for me.

Edited by Gry
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35 minutes ago, Zunnie said:

Okey, how do you think this will work?

Will we have game masters flying around the bosses banning the IP (not just account, creating accounts is far to easy here so you would have to ban the IP) of any one who runs in to stop another group from attacking the boss?

Or will we just have to hope that some one is recording it, to make it possible to ban the IP later? 

This would just create a lot of drama from people getting banned and it would consume a lot of time from GMs that should be spent helping players.

Also figthing bosses like Azuregos is just hell on PvE. You end up in a tag war the first time it spawns, where raids will just hope to get lucky and get the tag. Thats not fun at all, even if you dont like to PvP, having a tag off is way worse.

We're talking PvE so there's nothing to stop same faction griefing/tagging even if you put pvp on.

Azuregos etc should be on a random timer, so whoever gets enough peeps and tags it first, wins. If you're talking about the resetting that happened on Nos, that's a separate issue.

Fraps, streams can be used as evidence, suspend the entire account (IPs are going to be limited on CF so no one will want theirs banned)

Horde won't end up ganked 3 to 1, so they'll have a chance at WB and dragons.

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Fuck horde xD but u r right. Random timer seems to be best choice (and no forced pvp flag in pve realm for me as to the poll)

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I'll be on the Horde side of course and am happy to get flagged and die miserably. It would be the coolest thing to get realm first with the horde side though.

Up yours, alliance scum. (Horde being more polite than Sergeant Blackrobe)

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This may have been brought up in another thread but I can see a problem with Azuregos specifically since he wanders a large area where people farm for herbs a lot. I'm thinking about the "flag-the-zone" option here.

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1 hour ago, Outstanding said:

Up yours, alliance scum. (Horde being more polite than Sergeant Blackrobe)

Said false Knight-Lieutenant Outstanding.. horde scum dont want u anymore, traitor:P

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8 hours ago, Gry said:

The mobilizing speed is related to faction imbalance. Dominant faction reacts faster and has more players online who can join the raid and fill all the roles and scout for the boss spawn.

But I will play alliance so pretending faction imbalance has nothing to do with this topic it's ok for me.

that brings up a point that i did not think of as of yet, but i still think it will not be a huge problem since people on PvE servers tend to care less about this nonsense and just want to play what they want.

i still think the flagging in the subzones is a good way to resolve the 20h+ kiting of worldbosses.

the alternative of a gm flying around in invisibility mode teleporting any player interfering to mount hyjal (or any other place :>) is also a good idea. (on top of them recieving an account wide warning)

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Most of the problems I had on retail (Thunderhorn EU - PvE ruleset) was from same faction.

Most common was tanks from competing guilds taunting (or hunters distracting and kiting) and trying to run him off until he evades / resets to try get the tag.

Then we would "have" to do the same and it was just a tug-o-war of frustration.

I don't see what having us PvP flagged would help in this situation.

 

Now for the cases where it's cross faction griefing. (I'm calling it that since we're in the PvE section)

Automatic PvP flag when engaging a world boss might be some kind of solution but honestly fighting for the tag while fighting the other faction I don't see how that is much better than fighting for the tag without the PvP. Only 40 people will get loot in the end.

 

Anyway if I had to choose a non-blizzlike change for the sake of making this issue a self-regulated one instead of requiring GM intervention I'd say flag anyone who attacks the boss is the more reasonable change.

Sub-zone flag is the same as adding an outdoors battleground, anyone entering the area when Azuregos (for example is) is not up, or going there to farm / quest gets phased to a PvP server.

That's not reasonable.

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I voted for 100% pve. 

Someone griefs, simple, report them. 

Enjoy the ban!

 

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The main issue I have with relying on blizzlike GM action is that this is a P-server. GM's are volunteers who put in the time as and when available. Unless there is always a GM on when a world boss spawns (who then devotes their time to overseeing the world boss battle), griefing will be essentially free unless the server runs very good logs. Wouldn't take much for someone to make a new alt for each world boss and have it summoned out to the boss, deleting it after each case of griefing. Unless they can trace deleted alts by account (and effectively trace or counter proxy accounts) it will be the same as every other private server.

Add to that the fact the GM team simply wont be online 24/7 (not their fault, they're not paid to do it) and you'll have entire spawn periods outside of GM supervision.

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People tend to stream and fraps a lot more these days. If there's video evidence of an alt rushing Kazzak, then GMs can trace it back through logs. They can also trace who summoned it. So unless someone is willing to run an alt all the way to BL - and that takes a long long while what with dying every two seconds lol - I think griefing will be limited to real accounts.

As for Azuregos tagging issues, did he drop the tag on Live? You could kite him to Orgrimmar without reset, it'll depend on what leashing mechanics the devs have planned.

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Can't we just wait and see what happens when fighting worldbosses ?   On my old vanilla retail server we had almost no problem fighting those. Guilds would just take a number and wait even if it was cross faction.

It requires maturity and respect, which I hope is what I would like to find here also. We are all here for the same thing.. to relive our greatest moments  and joy we had in vanilla.  For me it was not boasting about my epix or making other people's life harder.

Anyway, this is just my personal (or naïve) point of view on that matter.

 

As @DeeMarie stated, people are using more recording tools now. It may not help in the moment of need but eventually it can bring justice and retribution.  (FOR THE LIGHT !!!)
We just need to be sure that our voice will get heard if we deliver this sort of evidence.

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1 hour ago, DeeMarie said:

As for Azuregos tagging issues, did he drop the tag on Live? You could kite him to Orgrimmar without reset, it'll depend on what leashing mechanics the devs have planned.

He would evade / reset if you dragged him to the precipice.

I'm also pretty sure he got a lease on him same as Kazzak towards the end of Classic.

Edited by Roadblock
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10 minutes ago, Roadblock said:

He would evade / reset if you dragged him to the precipice.

I'm also pretty sure he got a lease on him same as Kazzak towards the end of Classic.

Yeah bosses got leashed at the end when Blizz got sick of the kiting to main cities. I remember me and friend trying to kite one of the emerald dragons to Orgrimmar and it didn't work anymore lol Wonder what version CF is going for.

Maybe they just need to stop him from resetting or sanctions for anyone trying to kite him away from the raid. With only one or two accounts per IP, no one will want to risk a perma ban.

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2 hours ago, WingziuM said:

Can't we just wait and see what happens when fighting worldbosses ?   On my old vanilla retail server we had almost no problem fighting those. Guilds would just take a number and wait even if it was cross faction.

It requires maturity and respect, which I hope is what I would like to find here also. We are all here for the same thing.. to relive our greatest moments  and joy we had in vanilla.  For me it was not boasting about my epix or making other people's life harder.

If Nost PvE is anything to go by, this simply wont work, guilds were trying to make deals like that there but they were not honored in any way. Now we can all Hope that some of the less polite guilds do not roll on CF PvE, but I think it would be as you said a naive point of veiw. 

17 hours ago, Yavannie said:

This may have been brought up in another thread but I can see a problem with Azuregos specifically since he wanders a large area where people farm for herbs a lot. I'm thinking about the "flag-the-zone" option here.

Are there any alliance going around Azuregos and herbing? It is such a bad zone for herbing compaired to pretty much every other zone and its so far for alliance to travle.

Edited by Zunnie
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14 hours ago, Roadblock said:

Most of the problems I had on retail (Thunderhorn EU - PvE ruleset) was from same faction.

Most common was tanks from competing guilds taunting (or hunters distracting and kiting) and trying to run him off until he evades / resets to try get the tag.

Then we would "have" to do the same and it was just a tug-o-war of frustration.

I don't see what having us PvP flagged would help in this situation.

What I could see is that maybe the guilds on the same faction would then help each other since there is a shared enemy: the other faction. Maybe that would encourage them to work together for once. (too bad that Alliance and Horde fighting alongside is nonexistant in a situation like this)

5 hours ago, DeeMarie said:

People tend to stream and fraps a lot more these days. If there's video evidence of an alt rushing Kazzak, then GMs can trace it back through logs.

I don't think this is a solution by any means. It won't prevent the bs happening, gonna happen nonetheless. Will suck for you and for anyone that interferes. Who will it be good for? Even GMs will have to spend their evenings watching the recordings. It doesn't offer anything to resolve the original problem. Justice and that's it.

I don't think that having GMs to supervise the event is a good idea. Something is wrong if that's the only way it can be dealt with.

This is just my opinion, I don't know the perfect solution either. I'm going to roll on PvP anyways, just wanted to let my opinion out on this.

 

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So 17 in favor of this in some way, and 13 against. Can we have a serious look at this now devs? 9_9

 

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On 2016-10-19 at 1:42 PM, Gry said:

The mobilizing speed is related to faction imbalance. Dominant faction reacts faster and has more players online who can join the raid and fill all the roles and scout for the boss spawn.

But I will play alliance so pretending faction imbalance has nothing to do with this topic it's ok for me.

Actually the faction imbalance doesnt seem to be that great actually. Quiet surprising I must say, but of course a very very tiny part of the population has voted yet. But it was something like 60 horde 80 allies. I dont think its enough of an imbalance to make a strong argument against this. But thats just me.

On 2016-10-20 at 0:45 AM, Roadblock said:

Anyway if I had to choose a non-blizzlike change for the sake of making this issue a self-regulated one instead of requiring GM intervention I'd say flag anyone who attacks the boss is the more reasonable change.

Sub-zone flag is the same as adding an outdoors battleground, anyone entering the area when Azuregos (for example is) is not up, or going there to farm / quest gets phased to a PvP server.

That's not reasonable.

Besides Azuregos (and even him really), there is no quests near the other world bosses right? In their subzones that is. In case this is really a big problem, which I dont see. Then lets just flag anyone attacking the boss. Shouldnt be that hard to fix, and only raidteams will ever attacking him anyway. I dont understand why people get some kneejerk reaction that it will somehow be forced pvp on them when its purely a suggestion to combat griefing. (Not all of it, same faction griefing still exists ofc)

Edited by Sakritan
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Flagging of any kind won't prevent same-faction griefing, therefore it's ineffective and it's also against the idea of a PvE server...so I can't see any solution besides reporting any issues when they happen.

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I'm guessing that the perspective here is to leave things as they are and assume the community will take care of itself. 

On PvE servers reputation (good and bad) speaks for itself. If this was a 12-24 month project it wouldn't add up to a whole hill of beans but with PTE I guess people will be a little bit more considerate based on the long term perspective. I just Hope Zul'Dare is as mature as we think it will be

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