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Walgrave

Ironfoe

145 posts in this topic

Hello Devs & CFG community,

 IF.PNG

Currently in most private servers, the strongest weapon for warriors is Ironfoe, especially for short encounters. The proc which scales with gear (and procs from other proccing items (HoJ) and Windfury), generates more rage, which generates more damage. It practically gives Fury Warriors infinite rage. Depending on the rage formula used here (long discussion can be found on Kronos Bug Tracker regarding Rage) Ironfoe can potentially be the strongest Tank Threat Per Second weapon on a single target, TF for AoE. Discussion I linked is basically Kronos using old videos to determine rage generation formula, esp. Rage from damage taken which is massively nerfed on that project compared to other previous projects. Lvl 63 boss swings gives tanks 1-3 rage most of the time. So tanks rely on stronger auto attacks for rage, leading to slower weapons and items/WF proccing swings to be even stronger for threat generation.  

Due to the above scaling traits of Ironfoe, it becomes an irreplaceable weapon, even for Horde characters that do not enjoy the Mace Specialization benefits of the Human racial skill. It is even harder for Human Warrs to replace. Items such as the Rank 14 1H, or even Ancient Qiraji Ripper from AQ40 are considered a downgrade to Ironfoe on the Main Hand slot. 

I would like to ask your take on this item. Should it be allowed to be this powerful? That is upto you guys to decide. I'd like to expand on the issue of how it effects the community.

  • All Human Warriors with Ironfoe will not be replacing it, not until Naxxramas. Forcing them to grind out BRD for months, potentially, depending on the drop rate. Once they attain it, they will not have the satisfaction of gaining a more powerful Main Hand, the most power-influenced item slot for warriors for a long while. MC/BWL/AQ40 40-mans holds no replacement over this legendary BRD 5-man item. 
  • Warriors without Ironfoe can't compete with those that have it, therefore either always accepting to be of a lower-tier DPS to their Ironfoe-wielding compatriots. Perhaps effecting Loot Council item decisions based on performance (which is pretty common, to reward your best performing DPS). Or being forced to grind Ironfoe out to be competitive, perhaps burning out from the grind as you'll mostly pug it with a couple of guildies who would help you, at least until you reach 100 runs. There are people on Kro that claim to have done 500 runs without a drop. I know of a guild member who did 110 runs on Nostalrius for Ironfoe, finally getting it. He also did the Felstriker grind mind you, so perhaps he's just crazy. He did quit shortly after though.
  • Legendary item Sulfuras, holds no qualm to the might of Ironfoe for the Horde Warriors. For those that don't know, 2H Fury is a competitive option for Horde Warrs due to the rage generation from Windfury procs. Sulfuras is awesome, but it won't compete with Ironfoe, the one-hander.

Items proccing off of each other is also a related issue with Ironfoe. Namely Ironfoe, HoJ and WF combo. Each item proc proccing others including themselves in a chain proc session leading to insanely high damage and infinite rage as mentioned before. It is nearly impossible for any class or warriors themselves (without IF) to compete with such a combination of power proccing.

I'd like to suggest not allowing for such a powerful chain proc for the sake of balance. Additionally the sheer scaling power of the Ironfoe procs. 

-Walgrave

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Dunno what you're on about. No top tier dps warrior on Nostalrius used Ironfoe. No clue about Kronos tho.

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5 minutes ago, Frost said:

No clue about Kronos tho.

Kronos proc rates are all over the place, it's a joke.

I'm not sure if I said it on this forum or some other before, but Kronos shouldn't be used as a basis point on how things work or should work nor should it really be used to argue for change in anything since there's no guarantee that they've got anything right on that server.

 

edit: not implying that Nost or *insert private server project* here got it right but Kronos has established that they don't care about getting things right.

Edited by Ciar
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1 minute ago, Frost said:

Dunno what you're on about. No top tier dps warrior on Nostalrius used Ironfoe. No clue about Kronos tho.

if i recall correctly the general consensus was that ironfoe wasn't proccing correctly on nost, not only that, but it was entirely broken for 3/4 of the server lifetime and was worthless

i had ironfoe on my human war and it did less dps overall compared to viskag/brut/mala

warriors were able to achieve consistent enough rage gen to never be starved in bwl without it, anyway

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46 minutes ago, Ciar said:

Kronos proc rates are all over the place, it's a joke.

I'm not sure if I said it on this forum or some other before, but Kronos shouldn't be used as a basis point on how things work or should work nor should it really be used to argue for change in anything since there's no guarantee that they've got anything right on that server.

 

edit: not implying that Nost or *insert private server project* here got it right but Kronos has established that they don't care about getting things right.

In general none of the other private server projects should be used as a basis to point how things work.

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Ironfoe on retail was a repetition of the spell that procced it, twice. So 3k execute procs IF would proc 2x 3k executes. Nost and Kro both have different procs (normal 2x swings) but on Kronos it procs from chain procs, like WF swing dmg can proc a IF, the white swings of the IF can proc HoJ, only one proc if they proc at the same time. 

It's important to compare the implementations of Ironfoe, because the retail version was even more overpowered than Kronos apparently (where WF proc swings can proc IF and vice versa)

Wowhead comment from 2006:

By Nawkaga (3,931  4·9·20) on 2006/10/03 (Patch 1.12.1)    
Windfury cannot proc on this and vice versa.

When you get the 2 extra swings, you talk in Dwarven for approximately 10 seconds, due to the "Fury of Forgewright" proc.

 

By machiney (543  1·4) on 2007/06/08 (Patch 2.1.1)    
it once triggered wf indeed, so you could get a wf proc while the weapon procs but blizzard patched this for a while ago -.-; now it cant trigger wf and vica verca

you could get 6 hits and more at once with this and wf
wf proc which procs this weapon which procs wf again is no more ^^

 

By Eeolya (1,404  1·12) on 2008/05/14 (Patch 2.4.2)    
Few people know about this but the proc isn't 2 extra attacks.

I have had this weapon with my warrior since level 56. Thats close to three years ago.

The proc is a repetition of the attack it proced on. I still use Ironfoe in BT/MH and Sunwell. As a Fury warrior once the boss gets under the 20% range I swap Ironfoe and get TRIPLE 3k executes. This weapon still pumps out severe DPS even at level 70 when used in the correct situation.

The proc isn't a PPM either. Procwatch is queasy about it. It ranges from 10 to 18% oddly. However there is no internal CD. Meaning that under Flurry, DST and a haste potion it's proc galore.

Edit: Soon adding WWS parses, procwatch and Screenshots of Combat logs to support what might seem as crazed information from a poor boy on LSD.

 

Edited by Walgrave
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Clearing up items to ensure they work as intended before launch saves time afterwards, particularly as priorities will be given elsewhere.

It also ties in with ensuring WF procs correctly too.

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Regarding Rage Generation (slightly OT) http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/18325-the-new-rage-formula-by-kalgan/

avatar
Blue Poster
Target Source
#16 - 2006/11/16 08:10:26 PM
Q u o t e:
Was this forumla made by a player, or was it a blue posted it? I've tried to put it up with any data i've gathered from alpha, Kalagan's post etc. and it's just not right.


Those are definitely inaccurate. 

Here are the current rage generation formulae (note: these are slightly different than the ones which are on the current public test realms). 

The notable changes include an update to offhand rage generation (previously it was not being normalized correctly), and an improvement to rage generation from crits (essentially, crits now generate double the rage the hit would have ordinarily caused). The later change should help ensure that certain specs (ie: sword specialization) don't become clearly superior to crit-enhancing specializations like Axe/Polearm. 

For Dealing Damage: 
Main Hand Normal Hits: Factor=2.5 
Main Hand Crits: Factor=5.0 
Off Hand Normal Hits: Factor=1.25 
Off Hand Crits: Factor=2.5 

Rage Conversion Value (note: this number is derived from other values within the game such as a mob's hit points and a warrior's expected damage value against that mob): 

Rage Conversion at level 60: 230.6 
Rage Conversion at level 70: 274.7 

Expansion Rage Gained from dealing damage = ((Damage Dealt) / (Rage Conversion at Your Level) * 7.5 + (Weapon Speed * Factor))/2 

Pre-Expansion Rage Gained from dealing damage = (Damage Dealt) / (Rage Conversion at Your Level) * 7.5 


For Taking Damage (both pre and post expansion): 
Rage Gained = (Damage Taken) / (Rage Conversion at Your Level) * 2.5 
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1 hour ago, Walgrave said:

 

By machiney (543  1·4) on 2007/06/08 (Patch 2.1.1)    
it once triggered wf indeed, so you could get a wf proc while the weapon procs but blizzard patched this for a while ago -.-; now it cant trigger wf and vica verca

you could get 6 hits and more at once with this and wf
wf proc which procs this weapon which procs wf again is no more ^^

 

By Eeolya (1,404  1·12) on 2008/05/14 (Patch 2.4.2)    
Few people know about this but the proc isn't 2 extra attacks.

I have had this weapon with my warrior since level 56. Thats close to three years ago.

The proc is a repetition of the attack it proced on. I still use Ironfoe in BT/MH and Sunwell. As a Fury warrior once the boss gets under the 20% range I swap Ironfoe and get TRIPLE 3k executes. This weapon still pumps out severe DPS even at level 70 when used in the correct situation.

The proc isn't a PPM either. Procwatch is queasy about it. It ranges from 10 to 18% oddly. However there is no internal CD. Meaning that under Flurry, DST and a haste potion it's proc galore.

Edit: Soon adding WWS parses, procwatch and Screenshots of Combat logs to support what might seem as crazed information from a poor boy on LSD.

 

Keep note that Windfury was reworked in TBC, adding a 3 second internal cooldown and removing "back to back" WF procs that occurred in Vanilla, this pretty much makes the first quote null for the argument for how it should work in 1.12.1. (sources for WF ICD in 2.0.1--> http://www.wowhead.com/forums&topic=44127/windfury-3-second-cooldown , http://wow.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=21&mid=119273252569899002 , http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1490306-Windfury-Weapon-no-longer-has-a-3-second-internal-cooldown , http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/2140510051 , http://www.wowhead.com/forums&topic=33843/windfury-cooldown ; IF comments on wowhead are to be believed as true. ) 

Also it's curious on what base do you get upvote reputation on wowhead since 'machiney' said "it once triggered wf indeed, so you could get a wf proc while the weapon procs but blizzard patched this for a while ago -.-"  With no citation for it at all.

Weirdly enough, there's not much mention of windfury in actual patch notes; vanilla or TBC.

http://wow.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=243&mid=1170604263313154325 more discussion from TBC -era on procs triggering procs and windfury ICD (and it's implementation to the game in patch 2.0).

As for the second quote, couldn't find evidence to refute or prove that claim and the guy who posted the comment never added screenshots either.

Edited by Ciar
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So what's the suggestion here?  The extra attack from Ironfoe should always only proc a single white autoattack, and needs a three second ICD?  I'm seeing a lot of talking about how it works and no ideas on how to improve it. 

Keeping in mind that it's an absurdly rare drop to begin with, and while it shouldn't be hilariously strong, it really shouldn't be nerfed into the ground either, saying as only a handful of people will ever get it to begin with.

Edit: Also, didn't Ironfoe change at some point?  There's a proc aura spell in the database called "Ironfoe" that makes you speak dwarven for five seconds and gives increased crit chance for the duration, but I don't recall if or when that was used.

Edited by Darkrasp
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3 hours ago, Outstanding said:

It also ties in with ensuring WF procs correctly too

20% proc chance on each hit, one of the very few things that could be messed up is if physical damage procs (such as Vis'kag the bloodletter) can trigger it but that should be easy to discover.

 

I'd prefer it as was/is for the 1.12.1 version and change it to whatever it was/is when we progress to the 2.4.3 version. Just as I would prefer to have Edgemaster's as intended even though that specific item "forced" Blizzard to implement the Combat Expertise talent so rogues could stand a chance against Fury warriors.

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12 minutes ago, Darkrasp said:

I'm seeing a lot of talking about how it works and no ideas on how to improve it.

This is mainly a "warrior issue" due to the rage generation complaint, ironfoe is fine at where it's at for rogues as they trade off the sword specialization talent for it.

12 minutes ago, Darkrasp said:

Also, didnt ironfoe change at some point?

It did, used to proc 3 attacks somewhere around 1.0-1.6 (can't recall on the fly). Havn't heard anything about the crit chance though.

Edited by Soyoen
Edit in orange.
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3 hours ago, Soyoen said:

It did, used to proc 3 attacks somewhere around 1.0-1.6 (can't recall on the fly). Havn't heard anything about the crit chance though.

Yeah that's 1.3.0; Fixed a bug that was causing Thrash Blade, Flurry Axe, and Ironfoe to have an additional attack when the effect went off.

 

My post(s) were mostly questioning the validity of wowhead comments/private servers as a reliable source of information for how things should work.

And setting apart TBC windfury from vanilla windfury.

Edited by Ciar
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6 hours ago, Walgrave said:

Due to the above scaling traits of Ironfoe, it becomes an irreplaceable weapon, even for Horde characters that do not enjoy the Mace Specialization benefits of the Human racial skill. It is even harder for Human Warrs to replace. Items such as the Rank 14 1H, or even Ancient Qiraji Ripper from AQ40 are considered a downgrade to Ironfoe on the Main Hand slot. 

I would like to ask your take on this item. Should it be allowed to be this powerful? That is upto you guys to decide. I'd like to expand on the issue of how it effects the community.

 
 

 

I don't know why this is a problem since there are quite a few items like this.

 

Lionheart Helm - never gets replaced

Titanic Leggings - replaced in naxx

Wild Growth Spaulders - replaced only by tier 3

Dragon Finger of X - never gets replaced if the stats are the right ones

And those are just from the top of my head. So do you want these to be changed as well? But then other items become the new best in slot pieces. Do we then change these? Where do we draw the line?

What I'm trying to say is, that Vanilla had its rough edges, but isn't that part of the appeal? I for one actually prefer it this way because it gives you a reason to return to the old content. Does this reduce the value of other items later on in the game? It absolutely does, but there are still another 15 or so items that you have to worry about. So all in all this really isn't a big deal, at least in my opinion.

Edited by Ike
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4 minutes ago, Ike said:

Titanic Leggings - replaced in naxx

I don't see how it's a problem that these are replaced in Naxx, when you consider the fact that it's a patch 1.10 item.

5 minutes ago, Ike said:

Dragon Finger of X - never gets replaced if the stats are the right ones

This was left at its unbuffed state, cf. Darkrasp's update.

 

Just to get things right ofc.

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5 hours ago, Walgrave said:
By Eeolya (1,404  1·12) on 2008/05/14 (Patch 2.4.2)    
Few people know about this but the proc isn't 2 extra attacks.

I have had this weapon with my warrior since level 56. Thats close to three years ago.

The proc is a repetition of the attack it proced on. I still use Ironfoe in BT/MH and Sunwell. As a Fury warrior once the boss gets under the 20% range I swap Ironfoe and get TRIPLE 3k executes. This weapon still pumps out severe DPS even at level 70 when used in the correct situation.

The proc isn't a PPM either. Procwatch is queasy about it. It ranges from 10 to 18% oddly. However there is no internal CD. Meaning that under Flurry, DST and a haste potion it's proc galore.

Edit: Soon adding WWS parses, procwatch and Screenshots of Combat logs to support what might seem as crazed information from a poor boy on LSD.

if this is actually true, then it is amusing to think that it was actually working correctly initially on nost, then they "fixed" it by changing it purely to an additional 2 white swings

Edited by Mecher
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2 hours ago, Ciar said:

Yeah that's 1.3.0; Fixed a bug that was causing Thrash Blade, Flurry Axe, and Ironfoe to have an additional attack when the effect went off.

Actually I was refeering to this version of the item: http://web.archive.org/web/20050529015450/http://wow.allakhazam.com/item.html?witem=11684 not the actual bug :)

2 hours ago, Ciar said:

My post(s) were mostly questioning the validity of wowhead comments/private seff.rvers as a reliable source of information for how things should work.

There should be other sources of information available in this matter that are more reliable yes.

1 hour ago, Mecher said:

if this is actually true, then it is amusing to think that it was actually working correctly initially on nost, then they "fixed" it by changing it purely to an additional 2 white swings

But is it true? Have yet to seen any pre tbc videos showcasing this behaviour for the Ironfoe proc, or any hard information on it other than 1-2 random wowhead comments post 2.0.

 

IF there would be feelings that this proc chaining needs to be nerfed for Ironfoe in particular, then the "simpliest" of solutions would be a very low ICD to make sure that it can't proc from the hits it generates and other eventual hits that could have been generated from those hits. Somewhere around the main hand attack speed ~2,4 +/- 0,1%.

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@Frost We have to rely on comments from older threads because there is no real evidence from a blue post on how Ironfoe worked back then. Finding a video is also really hard, I tried for a while. Please feel free to dig up more credible information. 

I do not suggest it being nerfed to the ground, but balanced to the point where raiders will not be forced to do 100's of BRDs to get this item to be competitive in endgame 40 mans. On Kronos 1 it is still the strongest weapon with AQ40 out. This is what I am suggesting to avoid. 

Comparing a Main Hand weapon (esp. for warriors) to Lionheart which is purely stats on 1 piece of armor is not the same. Sure, you do not replace Lionheart in PvE, but it isn't your most power influenced slot. A Main Hand weapon slot for a warrior is extremely power sensitive. If IF is kept at a super-imba-level, than all competitive DPS warriors will have to do 100's of BRDs for it and never get a replacement, nor will any other DPS class come close to beating such a warrior. 

@Darkrasp My suggestion in the OP was to balance, perhaps stop, chain proccing from IF/HoJ/WF/SS. While concurrently all 3 or 2 of them proccing in the same swing (giving 6+ swings in 1 swing) is not likely to occur (for example HoJ+WF proccing in the same swing is a 1/50*1/5=1/250 chance), the issue is WF proc instant swing will proc further Ironfoe/HoJ instant swings. Warriors with this combo of chain proccing are nearly impossible to compete with. Not to mention multiple high DPSers with such combination of chain procs will make content progression much easier/cheaper.

Edit:

The simplest, most annoying for players, solution is to nerf the drop rate to 0.2% as Thottbot says. Though I believe there are other sources claiming a 5% drop rate from retail. (Kronos 0.8%) Anyways I do not think a 0.2% drop rate will deter raiders to farm it, but the solution is upto you guys. 

The most effective solution in my opinion, is the disabling chain proccing option + reducing the proc rate of Ironfoe. So the instant swing from a WF/IF/HoJ proc cannot proc further instant swings + reducing the proc rate of Ironfoe to something like 5% (not the proc itself). 

Kronos solution so far has been to stop multiple procs at the same time, meaning when WF/IF/HoJ/Sword Spec. procs, it only yields the most powerful proc, the WF, and ignores others. However, this hasn't changed DPS much as I proved earlier chances of multiple procs in the same swing are very little. The main issue is the chain procs, which Kronos has not nerfed, leading to insanely high melee damage. Avg BWL DPS on Kronos 1

 

Edited by Walgrave
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This weapon seems really good, I hope it is fixed to its retail version. :)

Edited by dailybs
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I looked into this a bit.  The spell effect is (id19: SPELL_EFFECT_ADD_EXTRA_ATTACKS).  The same effect is used by Windfury (Weapon and Totem), Hand of Justice, Thrash, Sword Spec, and Reckoning, as well as a very small handful of other mob-only abilities.  It isn't supposed to be a duplicate of the prior attack, but that may have been a bug related to on-next-hit effects like Heroic Strike proccing the extra swing, and the on-next-hit effect being carried into the extra swings.  I think I can say with some confidence that a behavior like that is unintended and shouldn't happen.

Anyways, what it's adding are simply additional white autos, but those autos themselves are capable of proccing any effects a normal white auto could proc.

The solution, I suppose, would be to change the handler for that spell effect and force those "extra" autos not to be able to proc on-hit effects, or at the very least not to proc additional ADD_EXTRA_ATTACKS effects.  I'm not sure how exactly that would be done (Asura wrote the code, not me), but I'm relatively confident that it could be.  In before every Shaman main starts screaming not to nerf Windfury?

(Tangent, but related to one of the above posts, Titanic Leggings won't be available until the Big Buff Event, and Dragon Fingers of X will not be better than raid wands.  The +wrath and +healing for nearly all "random suffix" items have been reduced to pre-buff levels; around a 35% reduction relative to what you're used to.  Lionheart Helm is what it is, Wild Growth Spaulders, Hide of the Wild, etc.  Those just happen to be extremely well itemized for their level.)

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10 minutes ago, Darkrasp said:

I looked into this a bit.  The spell effect is (id19: SPELL_EFFECT_ADD_EXTRA_ATTACKS).  The same effect is used by Windfury (Weapon and Totem), Hand of Justice, Thrash, Sword Spec, and Reckoning, as well as a very small handful of other mob-only abilities.  It isn't supposed to be a duplicate of the prior attack, but that may have been a bug related to on-next-hit effects like Heroic Strike proccing the extra swing, and the on-next-hit effect being carried into the extra swings.  I think I can say with some confidence that a behavior like that is unintended and shouldn't happen.

Anyways, what it's adding are simply additional white autos, but those autos themselves are capable of proccing any effects a normal white auto could proc.

The solution, I suppose, would be to change the handler for that spell effect and force those "extra" autos not to be able to proc on-hit effects, or at the very least not to proc additional ADD_EXTRA_ATTACKS effects.  I'm not sure how exactly that would be done (Asura wrote the code, not me), but I'm relatively confident that it could be.  In before every Shaman main starts screaming not to nerf Windfury?

(Tangent, but related to one of the above posts, Titanic Leggings won't be available until the Big Buff Event, and Dragon Fingers of X will not be better than raid wands.  The +wrath and +healing for nearly all "random suffix" items have been reduced to pre-buff levels; around a 35% reduction relative to what you're used to.  Lionheart Helm is what it is, Wild Growth Spaulders, Hide of the Wild, etc.  Those just happen to be extremely well itemized for their level.)

So items like Hide of the wild will be available on server release? wrong, yea?
If i remenber correctly that item was available with DM release, right?

I get confused with your plans on patch releases =D

Edited by ClawzTheMeow
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if you nerf it to where it doesn't last past vis'kag you also remove a large timesink/endeavour for many warriors though, just throwing that out there.

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I'm sure the warriors will be fine without running emp runs, having ironfoe being such a good weapon removes a bit of the weapon progression.

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