Welcome to Crestfall Gaming

Register now to Crestfall Gaming. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to contribute to this site by submitting your own content or replying to existing content. You'll be able to customize your profile, receive reputation points as a reward for submitting content, while also communicating with other members via your own private inbox, plus much more! This message will be removed once you have signed in.

Walgrave

Ironfoe

145 posts in this topic

@imbaslap Sorry was late to the party. I can confirm Kalgan's' formula is correct, my own experience playing retail/research all on threads from 2006 shows that the better the mitigation the less rage you receive. Common sense really if you think about it anyways

 

 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, DeeMarie said:

It was legit on live but I only did it a couple of times iirc. I vaguely remember the fire damage being somewhat prohibitive for certain classes like squishy hunters.

You can time your jumps so the fire damage ticks happen while you are in the air. If you get good at it you can jump through it without losing any health at all. At least that is how I do it on Kronos.

I too did lava runs on retail to help my brother to get Ironfoe. It was totally legit back then, no exploits.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know how the jump down by Incendius stuff works.  I did that run a few times to attune people to MC and to help guildies smelt dark iron.  We never called it a "Lava Run" though.  That just wasn't the terminology in use at the time.  There were Emp runs, Forge runs, Bar runs, Attunement runs, etc., but nothing we ever called a "Lava Run", and they all usually took a lot more than 15 minutes.  My concern was that something was being done to bypass a locked door or scripted event.  As long as it's not exploiting broken mechanics, I don't much care.

3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Darkrasp said:

I know how the jump down by Incendius stuff works.  I did that run a few times to attune people to MC and to help guildies smelt dark iron.  We never called it a "Lava Run" though.  That just wasn't the terminology in use at the time.  There were Emp runs, Forge runs, Bar runs, Attunement runs, etc., but nothing we ever called a "Lava Run", and they all usually took a lot more than 15 minutes.  My concern was that something was being done to bypass a locked door or scripted event.  As long as it's not exploiting broken mechanics, I don't much care.

The term 'lava run' was super popular on nost and other recent vanilla private servers.  They mean the original Emp runs. It doesn't exploit a broken mechanic, people have just gotten much better at finding a route that hits the least trash packs and gets them to emp as quickly as possible (I guess some people got that down to 15 minutes, I still say that time is bullshit. You almost always have some dumbass die in the lava or pull an extra set of the elementals which wreck the group).  It's just the jump down past Incendius and then heading into the Lyceum (torch room).

Edited by Kelila
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If those "Lava Runs" target is the Emperor...I don't see how's possible do a run in 15minutes....when you need to clear the whole room where he stands...

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, mrmr said:

If those "Lava Runs" target is the Emperor...I don't see how's possible do a run in 15minutes....when you need to clear the whole room where he stands...

Yea in my experience with a pug it takes usually 30 mins to do it.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can we bring back pwned? I miss pwned. Will never be the same without a good pwned.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Something to note is that on live it was much harder to lava jump, whereas on private servers it has been brainless to avoid any lava damage by simply spamming jump.

For example, on my retail server we had a horde priest who became notorious for spending all of his time in Blackrock Mountain, mind controlling players and throwing them into the lava so they would take durability deaths. On a private server this tactic is pointless because it's so easy to take no damage whatsoever from lava.

Watch this video and you will see what I mean, the player takes less damage by jumping, but not zero damage. -> https://youtu.be/6em8KPVCSHE?t=7m2s

Edited by yoens
1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, yoens said:

Something to note is that on live it was much harder to lava jump, whereas on private servers it has been brainless to avoid any lava damage by simply spamming jump.

For example, on my retail server we had a horde priest who became notorious for spending all of his time in Blackrock Mountain, mind controlling players and throwing them into the lava so they would take durability deaths. On a private server this tactic is pointless because it's so easy to take no damage whatsoever from lava.

Watch this video and you will see what I mean, the player takes less damage by jumping, but not zero damage. -> https://youtu.be/6em8KPVCSHE?t=7m2s

lol wish private servers had that working correctly !

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just because it is a rare drop, doesn't mean it should be ignored.    Stating that people will give up because in your heart you would is wrong.

I saw 4 drop on Nost, as I ran plenty of lava runs for the guild.  I passed on 3 of them.   I had Thunderfury when the 4th dropped so I passed it to a tank alt, since rage wasn't an issue there.

Calling a speed run bull shit just because you do not understand how it is done is retarded.    Keep in mind that these are farm runs with BWL geared DPS, and a good tank.  If people die a lot in lava, stop bringing them as they are slowing you down.

Another arguement, a caster wouldn't need anything so they won't go.    Gold..... they don't need gold?   #Bring a disenchanter, vendor roll the weapon drops.   World drops?   You can't get fodder loot and world BoEs if you don't kill shit.    Standing in IF/Org jumping the squares vs speed running easy instances, which do you think is more beneficial to a caster/healer?  Also hey, playing a game for the fun of it? If a guild member needs something, I'm there.  

Now to break down a proper run.  (Bring a Rogue, a mage/lock, any healer, warrior, and what ever else for the last slot) Speed through the hall, jump out the window, run down the center of the hall leading to Incideous, (to increase gold rate, you can always kill him as well for Ace of Elementals but does add to your run).   Lava jump.   You will have to kill this fire spawns here, but have your rogue skip and solo the torch guys while the rest clear the fire spawns.   You meet in the grand room, rogue having both torches.  Speed to them and light the torches, AoE once you get there.   This takes all about 6-7 minutes max if the rogue knows what to do, even faster if you have 2 rogues since each can get a torch at the same time.

Zerg the next boss.  Should take about 5-6 minutes for the trash in Emp room if you got good dps and mana regen on the healer.    Burn down the bosses.    While 15 min may be try hard, 20 min per run is really not hard to get.  Our guild would do at least an hour a night after doing normal stuff like raiding or what not.  3 runs in 1 hour.  30 days in a month.   In 1 month you ran it 90 times.  By drop rate %, you either saw one already, or close to it.

Items in Vanilla shouldn't have internal cooldowns.  Chance on hit items should be able to proc off other chance on hit items and the works, only the wind fury ~ IF restriction should be there per 1.12.1, not all grant extra swing items/specializations.  I had an alt rogue in 2005 and stacked all the Chance on hit items while being sword specced.  2/4 storm shroud, 3/4 storm shroud, Vis'Kag, Zulian Slicer, (firey weapon x2)(Instant poison x 2) DMC: Maelstrom, Heart of Wyrmthalak, Dragon Breath Chili, Sword Spec.    All the items procing off each other doesn't seem like a lot, but those procs proccing more of the 3/4 storm shroud for more energy was OP!!!!! Topping meters in all blues but trinket and sword over those who were geared in pre-Chromag BWL gear.  Internal Cooldowns were implemented in TBC due uncommon but OP builds such as these.

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, yoens said:

Something to note is that on live it was much harder to lava jump, whereas on private servers it has been brainless to avoid any lava damage by simply spamming jump.

For example, on my retail server we had a horde priest who became notorious for spending all of his time in Blackrock Mountain, mind controlling players and throwing them into the lava so they would take durability deaths. On a private server this tactic is pointless because it's so easy to take no damage whatsoever from lava.

Watch this video and you will see what I mean, the player takes less damage by jumping, but not zero damage. -> https://youtu.be/6em8KPVCSHE?t=7m2s

already annotated in BRD notes for testing. already know about the lava issue in BRD. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Undertanker said:

Items in Vanilla shouldn't have internal cooldowns. 

I'll agree with most of your post, at least enough not to argue any points, save for this one.

There were items in Vanilla with internal cooldowns (mostly, but not exclusively, "chance on hit taken" ones), or else they'd be absurdly overpowered, ie. 1s ICD on Force Reactive Disk.

My research over the course of this thread does confirm that the SPELL_EFFECT_ADD_EXTRA_ATTACKS property just creates additional white swings, which can proc anything a white swing can proc, without restriction.  So with respect to Ironfoe, you are correct in saying that no ICD applies to it.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Darkrasp said:

1s ICD on Force Reactive Disk.

You are correct on this one.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From a tank PoV - Ironfoe being stronger than Thunderfury on single target fights seems to be the case on Crestfall too - as in Kronos - if the rage generation by Kalgan I posted is indeed truly implemented as reported by @imbaslap. Hell, Deathbringer with Windfury is probably stronger than TF on single target, if not close to, due to the lack of rage from damage taken being the case with this rage formula. 

@Cornholi did the math earlier in this thread for comparison of rage gained from a Nefarian swing on Nost (likewise Feenix) vs. Kalgan's rage formula.

Quote

Here's a video of a main tank tanking Nef on Nostalrius: https://www.twitch.tv/vipzi/v/55361063 , fast forward to 34:51, at exactly that moment Vipzi (the MT) is sitting at 53 rage he takes a hit for 1578 (186 blocked) and his rage bar immediately shoots up to 97, that's a 44 rage increase just from one hit.

Currently there's two rage generation formula from incoming damage:

The one that can be found on Wowwiki from 2006: Enemy Level * 1.5 = 1 Rage

and the one @imbaslap posted from Kalgan: Rage Gained = (Damage Taken) / (Rage Conversion at Your Level) * 2.5.

By doing the math you will see that you should only be getting anyting from 16 to 17 rage from 1578 hit.

This implication equates to a normal endgame boss swing not generating enough rage for a single Shield Slam - which costs 20 rage - let alone allow for faster weapons (1.3-1.5 speed weapons) Sunder + Heroic Strike spams. Thereby increasing the effectiveness or reliance of procs from auto-attacks for high threat generation. An example of a proc-based TPS Main Tank as Kronos uses a rage generation similar to if not exactly like Kalgan's post. (Side-note: Notice the lack of defensive gear, Magno is running low defense gear for bosses too, far less than 400 (cap being 440), as bosses barely do damage to tanks on Kronos 1 with retail values, in AQ40 as well with the exception of Twin Emps)

Lets do some calculations to get to the bottom of this TF vs IF comparison.

Threat generated from a single TF proc is ~948 points. (Source: My report on TF, based on the values of @Armilus which he sourced from ElitistJerks) Ironfoe proc generated 2 extra swings, we're exempting the bugged IF 3rd extra swing from this case. Since we're using the ~948 from my T2 tank, he also had a melee range of 133-204, this is ofc with TF equipped (44-115 Damage). Ironfoe has a higher range (73-136 Damage) due to its slower speed. Modifying the melee damage to add the extra damage, my T2 tank with IF would do 162-225 damage.

Calc:- (Please do correct me if I'm missing something)

Thunderfury 

  • Threat Ref (EJ): Attack speed debuff of 92 and NR debuff of 149.
  • Swing + TF proc = 123 auto attack + 270 TF dmg + 92 + 149 = 634 threat. 
  • Kalgan rage formula (Pre-Expansion Rage Gained from dealing damage = (Damage Dealt) / (Rage Conversion at Your Level) * 7.5)
    • 123 / 230.6 * 7.5 = 4 Rage gained from the swing. 
  • Applying threat modifiers for defensive stance and defiance talent tree for Prot Warrior we get: 634 * 1.3 * 1.15 = ~948. 
  • Total gained: 948 points of threat and 4 rage from the swing + proc. 

Ironfoe 

  • 1x Normal Swing + 2x Normal Swings per IF proc from a range of 162-225. Lets average it -> 3x [(162+225)/2] = 193.5*3 = ~580.5 damage per IF proc.
  • Kalgan rage formula (Pre-Expansion Rage Gained from dealing damage = (Damage Dealt) / (Rage Conversion at Your Level) * 7.5)
    • 580.5 / 230.6 * 7.5 = 18.9. ~19 Rage (Shield slam @ 20)
  • Applying threat modifiers for defensive stance and defiance talent tree for Prot Warrior we get: 580.5*1.3*1.15 = ~868.
  • Total gained: 868 points of threat and 19 rage from the swing + proc 

Shield Slam (since we're 1 point off Shield Slam on an Ironfoe average proc) 

  • Shield Slam damage example of 334. (Via Zetox/Armilus test case)
  • Shield Slam bonus threat is 250 (Source) (334+250, this constant is applied before warrior threat modifiers)
  • Applying threat modifiers for defensive stance and defiance talent tree for Prot Warrior we get: 584*1.3*1.15 = 873.
  • Total gained: 873 points of threat. 

Reminder, most tanks with Ironfoe in Crestfall would be going more offensive than the example I used which is a full T2 defensive geared character - as that case was necessary for the high damage taken on Nost. Retail bosses (like Kronos, perhaps Crestfall) would do a lot less damage, therefore allowing the "proc based" tank gearing option, which barely covers 400 defense points from the 440 cap and has a lot more melee Attack Power (scaling further as tanks gain more AP with more content) boosting the Ironfoe proc bonus damage further, which in turn rewards the tank with a lot more rage to use skills like Shield Slam just from the proc itself.

Edited by Walgrave
1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As I mentioned in another thread @Walgrave, it's pretty much a guarantee that the bosses are going to be buffed here on Crestfall, coupled with the nerfed rage generation it's going to be interesting to see how tanks will itemize on this server.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, Cornholi said:

As I mentioned in another thread @Walgrave, it's pretty much a guarantee that the bosses are going to be buffed here on Crestfall, coupled with the nerfed rage generation it's going to be interesting to see how tanks will itemize on this server.

If these two things interact, my Tank Point guide will rule the day :) lol.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Alcor's is not possible with the low rage generation here. My comment on @Cornholi's calculation in my post states that fast weapons will be useless here:-

Quote

This implication equates to a normal endgame boss swing not generating enough rage for a single Shield Slam - which costs 20 rage - let alone allow for faster weapons (1.3-1.5 speed weapons) Sunder + Heroic Strike spams.

If indeed boss damage output is buffed on Crestfall (as I hope) the tanks would be defensive with Ironfoe which my example utilizes. Ironfoe proc is too good for tanks threat generation especially with the real rage calculation. I wouldn't use the word "nerfed", though I have been guilty of using that term on Kronos. It really is more representative, I honestly can't remember much of the rage gen on retail vanilla. I was mostly OT so it mattered less. 

Thunderfury remains the king of AoE threat, and the debuff is quite useful for defensive fights. However, I don't know how much Cresftfall will boost the boss damage output, whether it will be necessary to use TF for the debuff. Top guilds would not budget TF 2 debuff slots in their raid composition unless it is necessary. However, I doubt Crestfall will go that far in boosting bosses.

My main issue is that Ironfoe is just too strong for single target threat generation, stronger than TF as I concluded in defensive gear. Even stronger in offensive gear. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'll augment my earlier calculation a little bit by converting rage gained to threat. 

Shield Slam from my example generates 43.65 threat for each point of rage.

Converting rage into threat:-

  • Thunderfury948 + 4*43.65 = ~1123 points of threat.
  • Ironfoe = 868 + 19*43.65 = ~1697 points of threat.

The difference is staggering really. 

Edited by Walgrave
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Alright, so as a tanking neophyte, feel free to enlighten me on the following suppositions..  Please note, I have no intention of making any changes to Ironfoe as it is.

You have calculated out the threat and rage for a single swing + proc there, but doesn't Thunderfury have a far higher proc rate than Ironfoe (edit: and a much faster attack speed), on the order of double or triple?  My understanding was that Ironfoe was around a 10-15% proc rate where Thunderfury is around 30%, though that is admittedly purely from memory.

Similarly, the correct rage generation formulas for damage taken are actually a little bit worse than you might think, as Imbaslap can attest.  Players should generate no rage from damage taken if the source of that damage is a gameobject (ie. Ragnaros' Lava Burst, Heigan's Plague Wave, etc.), and no rage from damage taken if the source is a DoT spell cast by a creature.  (Ie.. Poison damage from a rogue in PvP will generate rage, but poison from a mob will not).  This applies to a LOT of NPC abilities, from Magmadar's Conflag right up to Sapphiron's Frost Aura.  Obviously this changes things significantly for a lot of fights where tanks take a lot of periodic damage.  Not sure if that's how it works on other realms, but that's how it's supposed to work, and that's how it will work here.

Lastly, a question.. I remember pretty much always being able to out-threat the tank except in certain fights.  If DPS really opened up, they'd almost always pull.  Aggro management was something that every DPS just had to learn as you progressed or you'd pull aggro and die all the time.  Rare was the fight where you could just go balls out as a DPS without fear of pulling aggro.  Is that not the norm on private servers?  Potential DPS should almost always be higher than tank TPS, right?

Edited by Darkrasp
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's a great memory actually. However, if you delve into the proc side of things, it gets far more messy.

TF has been nerfed and buffed many times, @Zetox is our resident Thunderfury Historian. He has mentioned each version with sources in the Nost Thread I linked. Anyways 30% is the most powerful version of Thunderfury which was nerfed way down to 15% than later buffed back to 25%. The 30% Thunderfury also procced off of spells, poisons, items, itself, so on. It was the most dangerous TF. This was nerfed further so it only procced from damaging outgoing hits (from main hand, not shield) in the 15% version. The most "fair" version I believe was the 25% TF based on the 15% TF proccing system. Nost eventually implemented this from the thread Zetox started. 

Ironfoe is reported to being 10-18% proc rate. However, like you mentioned, it had no internal CD. The weapon swing reset twice could also crit, proc other things like WF, HoJ, Maelstrom trinket. Each individual proc swing had the potential to do a lot more damaging chain procs. Hard to calculate really, where that Ironfoe stands. TF comparatively is quite static in the normal version, as the proc has no chain effects anymore.

Tank threat is the "cap" for high performing DPS most of the time. I for example could easily be twice ahead of the 2nd person on the threat list using an Alcor's with the old rage formula. However from my observation of the more realistic rage gen on K1 (really, the only server with a different rage formula) DPS have to use items like Fetish and have a 2nd Shaman in group (my xp is Horde) for tranquil totem threat reduction, and they still threaten the tank's threat. The tank also uses everything in his disposal to ensure maximum threat, the fewest defensive gear necessary to keep up with DPS. Magnotank's gear by comparison to some I've seen is actually quite conservative, many tanks would go nearly full DPS gear with a shield. Ironfoe scales amazingly well with gear (since Attack Power/Crit boosts the proc swing damage, which gives more rage). Ally side at least the DPS should still be using Ironfoe in AQ40, so the Ironfoe wielding tank has to really pray for procs to keep up. Top Ally Warrior | 2nd Ally Warr | #4 Ally Warr on K1 avg DPS all with IF. I also know personally the Top horde DPS (Ahl) and he uses Ironfoe + Anubisath Warhammer combo. 

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is the rankings for alliance warriors on K1. 7 of the Top 10 are using IF. Top Ally Non-Ironfoe Warrs -> #3, #8, #10.

I use K1 as an example because they are in AQ40 gear (showing you the scaling of Ironfoe) and they have the closest genuine rage formula. 

Edited by Walgrave
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, Darkrasp said:

Lastly, a question.. I remember pretty much always being able to out-threat the tank except in certain fights.  If DPS really opened up, they'd almost always pull.  Aggro management was something that every DPS just had to learn as you progressed or you'd pull aggro and die all the time.  Rare was the fight where you could just go balls out as a DPS without fear of pulling aggro.  Is that not the norm on private servers?  Potential DPS should almost always be higher than tank TPS, right?

Prioritizing hit and crit were not things for most tanks back in the day. They understood defense and mitigation but not at the levels we have today.

19 minutes ago, Walgrave said:

Tank threat is the "cap" for high performing DPS most of the time. I for example could easily be twice ahead of the 2nd person on the threat list using an Alcor's with the old rage formula. However from my observation of the more realistic rage gen on K1 (really, the only server with a different rage formula) DPS have to use items like Fetish and have a 2nd Shaman in group (my xp is Horde) for tranquil totem threat reduction, and they still threaten the tank's threat. The tank also uses everything in his disposal to ensure maximum threat, the fewest defensive gear necessary to keep up with DPS. Magnotank's gear by comparison to some I've seen is actually quite conservative, many tanks would go nearly full DPS gear with a shield. Ironfoe scales amazingly well with gear (since Attack Power/Crit boosts the proc swing damage, which gives more rage)

This. 

http://realmplayers.com/CharacterViewer.aspx?realm=KRO&player=Futilian&itemset=0 the main tank of Onslaught, Number 1 horde guild on K1. Very little def gear, his damage and threat output is so high dps are not capped. I know he got and used an IF early in their progression. Now he uses Blessed Quiraji War Axe

They actually have TF in the guild but are not used by the MT's. Used by the dps i believe.

 

Edited by Nocturn
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I fail to understand how a tank with such poor defensive stats isn't getting 2-shot by any of the harder-hitting raid bosses.  This guy can tank twin emps? 

Sounds like some bad math on the back end to me, maybe TBC values being used somewhere, either in damage or mitigation calculations.  Probably damage, tons of private servers use TBC data for almost all their mobs.  My experience with retail was that gear like that might fly for trash, or if you're offtanking maybe, but not if you're tanking anything remotely heavy-hitting.

We'll have to see how stuff like this goes in beta testing, I think.  I'm not going to pass any kind of judgement until we get a chance to crunch numbers ourselves.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, Darkrasp said:

Sounds like some bad math on the back end to me, maybe TBC values being used somewhere, either in damage or mitigation calculations.  Probably damage, tons of private servers use TBC data for almost all their mobs

Could be. There is a lot of talk on the Kronos forums of raids feeling to easy and i'd agree. Raiding/dungeon tanking was more difficult on Nost. (Threat was easier there though)

Still his gear set-up works on most raid bosses. (He like any good tank has other sets, one with a full 440 defense or so for those hard hitting bosses like Twins) The dps are fully geared out too as are the healers. They expect this incoming spike damage and spam heal him, and since his threat is so high, DPS go ball to the walls and their fights end very quickly (Healers still have a large mana pool at the end of fights). Also 440 also only makes you  uncrittable. Does nothing to remove crushing blows. To stop that a good tank keeps shield block up (With shield block up you shouldn't be crit either. Regardless of 440 def or not. In that case pushing for higher Threat sets such as his a very doable and is what i believe and practice as well.

Edited by Nocturn
0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now