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Walgrave

Ironfoe

145 posts in this topic
13 minutes ago, Nocturn said:

To stop that a good tank keeps shield block up (With shield block up you shouldn't be crit either. Regardless of 440 def or not.

Yeah but I always had to make a choice of either shield block or use that rage for more threat.  Couldn't spam it for 100% up time.  Even when I would run 8 hit.   So on fights where a crit might kill you, twin emps I made sure it was up and what not.  Typically waiting for revenge to proc on it's own.  Which it normally was available so I wouldn't use shield block unless I had to or I am well above the dps.  Very annoying.

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2 hours ago, Darkrasp said:

I fail to understand how a tank with such poor defensive stats isn't getting 2-shot by any of the harder-hitting raid bosses.  This guy can tank twin emps? 

Sounds like some bad math on the back end to me, maybe TBC values being used somewhere, either in damage or mitigation calculations.  Probably damage, tons of private servers use TBC data for almost all their mobs.  My experience with retail was that gear like that might fly for trash, or if you're offtanking maybe, but not if you're tanking anything remotely heavy-hitting.

We'll have to see how stuff like this goes in beta testing, I think.  I'm not going to pass any kind of judgement until we get a chance to crunch numbers ourselves.

It should be noted that threat sets are not exactly a Kronos only phenomenon, there were many tanks theorizing and using threat sets on Nost as well:

https://forum.nostalrius.org/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=31736

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ykTa_OWeWsB3L3dJHxMaiC3p4IMSr0W0UMl3woQaSqI/edit#gid=949587540

it should also be noted that it was rumored that the Nost devs buffed the bosses from BWL and every raid afterwards.

Finally, as @Nocturn alluded to already a good tank has multiple gear sets for multiple encounters.

Edit: One last point, being fully world buffed increases your health pool to ridiculous levels, like we're talking about having 11k hp in a full threat set.

Edited by Cornholi
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Just to clarify a bit. 440 defense makes you immune to Crit from a Boss (Weapon skill of 315, lvl 63 mobs). 100% avoidance pushes crushing blows off of the attack table of the boss. Your parry, dodge and block % has a total of  x% of avoidance. x+y=100% that crushing blow is pushed off. y being remaining avoidance needed to reach 100 from the 75% Block from Shield Block skill. 

  • Critical Damage does 100% increased damage.
  • Crushing Blow does 50% increased damage. 

Below is an excerpt from @Armilus's tanking guide

For example,
At first the attack table for the boss looks like this:

CODE: SELECT ALL
Miss 6%
Parry 8%
Dodge 8%
Block 8%
Crit 5%
Crushing Blow 15%
Hit 35%

Total = 100%


Now we use shield block which increases our chance to block by 75%, our attack table now looks like this: 

CODE: SELECT ALL
Miss 6%
Parry 8%
Dodge 8%
Block 78%

Total = 100%

Notice that the block chance is only 78% instead of 83%, that is because some of our block is being pushed off the table.

This mechanic also means that it is impossible to block a crushing blow or dodge a critical hit. A single random value is generated between 1 and 10,000 and the corresponding row is pulled from the table. As a result, it is not possible to combine outcomes.
 

With consumables and world buffs, tanks easily have 10k-12k buffed HP in T2 gear setting. So being crit for 3k, 4k, even 6k is not a problem. On Kronos, full tank gear is only needed for like Twin Emps. So rest of the time you can trade defensive gear for DPS pieces and lose a bit of health only. You can still be 10k HP easily in threat set.

Examples of full defensive sets without Flasks. 

Nost 11k HP Unflasked, no Zanza 50stm, no Blasted Lands boar buff

YANLihx.png

ED 12k (Feenix) Unflasked (Note: Feenix allowed for strange buff stacking, like Stamina Scroll + Fort, or 2x different Rums, Elixir of Brute Force with Fort again)

LhHDV2A.png

Edited by Walgrave
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5 hours ago, Walgrave said:

I'll augment my earlier calculation a little bit by converting rage gained to threat. 

Shield Slam from my example generates 43.65 threat for each point of rage.

Converting rage into threat:-

  • Thunderfury948 + 4*43.65 = ~1123 points of threat.
  • Ironfoe = 868 + 19*43.65 = ~1697 points of threat.

The difference is staggering really. 

  1. What do you mean by "converting rage into threat"? You're not talking about threat from rage gain for sure (only "You gain x rage" abilities like Bloodrage, Improved Blocking, Unbridled Wrath and 5P Might generate threat (5) per rage point. So I'm guessing you're converting extra rage to threat as "free" shield slams? That's pointless without taking into account the RPS (rage per second which would need to account for proc rates between IF and TF) you can't compare in a vacuum like that.

Your threat gain calculation for TF auto + proc is also wrong (in part because it appears you use additive and multiplicative threat modifiers interchangeably or don't differentiate between reference material that uses one or the other):

Using auto-attack = 123, TF damage proc = 300 * 0.9 (defensive penalty) = 270 and 350 (defensive + 5/5 defiance modifiers already factored in per EJ) you'd get:

(123 + 270)*1.495 (587.5 from damage component) + 350 (from TF debuffs) = 937.5 threat.

It also appears you're miscalculating base damage for TF by ignoring the +NR auto-attack component

(53.9 * 1.9 = 102.41 base - only 79.5 of that is physical damage - for TF, vs 43.5 * 2.4 = 104.4 base for IF)

so you're overvaluing IF threat from auto-attacks.

References I find on IF proc rate put it between 5-10%, corroborating this, when they later switched it to the PPM system they put it on 2 PPM (60/2.4 = 25 auto-attacks, 2/25 = 8%)

With the listed 25% proc rate for TF and the 1.9 speed we would get ~ 7.9 PPM, let's be generous and put IF on 10% ie 2.5 PPM and round TF down to 7.5 PPM.

That would give 3x TF procs for each IF proc, and this paints a whole different story for rage gen between the two.

TF proc could also crit (the +N proc damage component).

 

At this point I'm also inclined to discount all evidence from other private server projects.

I mean the research into the original Classic (retail) mechanics is still valuable, but needs to be verified again.

The testing methodologies for ensuring CF mechanics line up with retail are useful, but I would trash all video and log data from other private server projects, they just conflate the issues.

 

 

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7 hours ago, Cornholi said:

As I mentioned in another thread @Walgrave, it's pretty much a guarantee that the bosses are going to be buffed here on Crestfall, coupled with the nerfed rage generation it's going to be interesting to see how tanks will itemize on this server.

its not nerfed rage gen.. its CORRECT rage gen.

every other server has it wrong.. stop thinking its nerfed when its actually correct. other servers catered to the casuals by having it broken and giving excess rage when it wasnt the case on retail vanilla at all.

TLDR, stop thinking Nost was 100% perfect and correct.. it was far from it. 

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What he means by converting rage to threat is he is adding the extra rage from the IF proc and getting an EXTRA 19 rage.  95% of as shield slam cost.  So he is adding 95% of shield slam threat to the proc assuming you would use the extra rage earned for it.

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4 minutes ago, Undertanker said:

What he means by converting rage to threat is he is adding the extra rage from the IF proc and getting an EXTRA 19 rage.  95% of as shield slam cost.  So he is adding 95% of shield slam threat to the proc assuming you would use the extra rage earned for it.

And like I said if you read my post, even if he was talking about that, you can't compare free slams in a vacuum like that.

Edit: To avoid spam posting I'm not calling out anyone, just trying to clarify my post, I can remove the "I'm sure he doesn't mean this" part if it's confusing :)

Edited by Roadblock
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To really make use of Ironfoe the following requirements need to be fulfilled:

  1. You need to be a human warrior for the +5 mace skill. Ironfoe isn't too powerful on any other race/class combo: A Human warrior with Vis'kag beats any other equally geared race with Ironfoe. Orcs with a Crul'shorukh + WF will outperform alliance warriors if it comes to the pure dps potential (while foe is better than Deathbringer, even for Orcs).
  2. You need world buffs and consumales. Without world buffs, the 2 extra attacks are quite weak so you totally rely on keeping them as long as possible. Only dedicated warriors do even get all of those buffs and are skilled enough to keep them for a long time.
  3. You need a good guild wich doesn't wipe on farm content and clears stuff fast. See 2. You need to be able to keep the buffs. Even the best warrior can't do much in a guild that takes ages to clear raids because of bad tanks, bad heals and bad dps. Boss kill times are too slow so your cooldowns will be less useful. Healers won't keep you alive at fights where melees take damage and tanks won't manage to hold aggro or taunt fast enough, etc.. Even if you stay alive, buffs will run out before you can even finish the instance(s).

For 99% of the fury warrios out there, it hardly makes any difference if they use Rend swords or the best mace in the game.
You can easily compete with most of them with your preraid bis sword if you have a bit of skill and/or a better
raid environment. Having an Ironfoe doens't mean you easily beat all others. Between top warriors in top alliance guilds
however it can make a notable difference.
If the drop rate is at 0,4% (Atlasloot value for 1.12) on a server where you can't multibox, chances are super low that it
falls into the hands of any good human warrior who has the potential to become a monster. Many of them won't even
farm it or go for R14 instead. For a 50% chance to get it, they will need to do 200 runs. A 98% chance will require 1000 runs.
Doing that many runs with PUGs is pure masochism. Not everyone has guildmates/friends who are willing to help you out that many
times in a short run.
It's a great item that will only be strong in the hands of very few players. Those who decide to farm it will be busy for a long
long period of time and that's what vanilla is all about. If you never get it, you can still be competitive wearing
items that are much easier to get (Vis'kag, CTS, etc.). All other races don't have to care about it anyway.
Don't look at Kronos stats, it is a nerfed joke server far from any Blizzlike experience
Just keep Ironfoe as it was in retail vanilla: A strong weapon (that doesn't proc of WF procs) with a super low drop rate.

Edited by Drogenhund
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41 minutes ago, Drogenhund said:

If the drop rate is at 0,4% (Atlasloot value for 1.12) on a server where you can't multibox, chances are super low that it
falls into the hands of any good human warrior who has the potential to become a monster. Many of them won't even
farm it or go for R14 instead. For a 50% chance to get it, they will need to do 200 runs.

Since every respectable Warrior will go for HoJ, you can be assured that at least some of the good human warriors will have Ironfoe.

 

If you offset the chance of HoJ for every Fury Warrior against the chance of getting Ironfoe you will realize that Ironfoe isn't all that rare.

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@Roadblock

I'm computing it in a scenario where the tank is rage starved with this rage model. The additional assumption that shield slam is off cooldown is plain. My calculation is not to be taken out of context into a statement of "Threat per rage" in all contexts, I'm not theorycrafting overall threat per rage benefits. It is only for the scenario if you're rage starved, and you have a weapon proc, what next-move would it result in? TF proc with a static threat or IF proc with a possible chain proc and a free SS if off CD.  

"(123 + 270)*1.495 (587.5 from damage component) + 350 (from TF debuffs) = 937.5 threat."

Only your TF debuff value is different from mine.  Armilus's EJ posts says 92(AS)+149(NR). If you apply the modifiers separately you get 222.8, not 350 as you reached/referenced. 

I missed the NR component on TF, I'll concede. It depends if elemental damage table is working on Crestfall, unlike Nost as my TF test post concluded there. 

I think we've found a solution here for Ironfoe. At an 8% proc rate it does seem relatively balanced. However a source for this would be great. 

Also TF proc critting is negligible, as you'd need more spell crit to get anything out of it. While an Ironfoe proc is far stronger being based on melee crit and additionally proccing WF/HoJ/Maelstrom. Anyone up for doing the math on that?

Edited by Walgrave
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9 minutes ago, Walgrave said:

@Roadblock

I'm computing it in a scenario where the tank is rage starved with this rage model. The additional assumption that shield slam is off cooldown is plain. My calculation is not to be taken out of context into a statement of "Threat per rage" in all contexts, I'm not theorycrafting overall threat per rage benefits.

"(123 + 270)*1.495 (587.5 from damage component) + 350 (from TF debuffs) = 937.5 threat."

Only your TF debuff value is different from mine.  Armilus's EJ posts says 92(AS)+149(NR). If you apply the modifiers separately you get 222.8, not 350 as you reached/referenced. 

I missed the NR component on TF, I'll concede. It depends if elemental damage table is working on Crestfall, unlike Nost as my TF test post concluded there. 

I think we've found a solution here for Ironfoe. At an 8% proc rate it does seem relatively balanced. However a source for this would be great. 

Also TF proc critting is negligible, as you'd need more spell crit to get anything out of it. I have seen it crit though on occasion but it was hardly noticeable. 

I'm using this as reference: http://web.archive.org/web/20150427142920/http://forums.elitistjerks.com/topic/6943-values-for-thunderfury-threat-generation/

Even if you reverse engineer the values he gives that include the defensive + defiance threat modifier you don't get the 92 + 149, so I don't know where those are coming from.

Based on the date of the post and OP saying he did his tests on the same day he posted he's on 1.10.2 patch.

Edit: Also I think I found the math illiterate person further down the comments from whom those strange 92 + 149 values come.

You will notice Kenco is also posting in the thread and has no corrections to make to the OP.

Edited by Roadblock
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Anyways the margin of error was ~1% so hardly worth the talk, but thanks for the correction. The missing NR component though is the bigger error. 

"References I find on IF proc rate put it between 5-10%, corroborating this, when they later switched it to the PPM system they put it on 2 PPM (60/2.4 = 25 auto-attacks, 2/25 = 8%)"

Can you link the reference for this? Might be the version of Ironfoe we can get behind.

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42 minutes ago, Walgrave said:

Anyways the margin of error was ~1% so hardly worth the talk, but thanks for the correction. The missing NR component though is the bigger error. 

"References I find on IF proc rate put it between 5-10%, corroborating this, when they later switched it to the PPM system they put it on 2 PPM (60/2.4 = 25 auto-attacks, 2/25 = 8%)"

Can you link the reference for this? Might be the version of Ironfoe we can get behind.

Page 4 in this thread is the first mention of 5% (but no testing methodology described), first page towards the bottom (ignore the top of page as that's BC prepatch/BC), who lists sample size and conditions for testing that brings it to ~3%. https://web.archive.org/web/20071111014919/http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?witem=11684

So it appears I might even have been extra generous putting it at 8% (or even more 10%).

Quote

After some testing on a Servant mob in the Blasted Lands, I have a more accurate idea of the proc rate. All testing was done on the same level 53 "Servant of Grol" wielding Ironfoe along with a shield. All attacks were either auto-attacks, Bloodthirst or Revenge (all of which I believe are capable of triggering Chance on Hit effects). I used no other equipment that granted extra attacks, although I did have Crusader enchanted and enough Heroism equipped for the "chance on hit to heal" set bonus.

In all I attacked the mob 3,226 times with Ironfoe, and recieved 87 extra attack procs (counting the combatlog message "You gain 2 extra attacks from Fury of Forgewright." as a single proc). 42 of those attacks were partially blocked (but still did damage), 62 were dodged, 32 were parried, and none missed.

This would make the proc rate 2.70%, or 0.675 procs per minute. For comparison, Crusader is believed to be approximately 1 proc per minute (I found 1.07 procs per minute in my testing). It should be noted that "procs per minute" refers to how often it would be expected that a Chance on Hit activates for a character simply auto-attacking without using any special abilities, or attack speed increases - in practice the proc rate will be higher.

So basically, the weapon seems to have approximately a 2.70% chance on each attack to cause you to gain two further attacks.

This test was performed on the live WoW servers, under version 1.11.2

As for the conversion to PPM mechanic later: http://www.wowhead.com/spell=182395/thrash-blade

If we take the middle case scenario of 5% the rage advantage completely evaporates. Caveat: Napkin math. A 5% would put it at 1.25 PPM, 3% would put it at 0.7 PPM (meaning 6 to 10 TF procs for each IF proc, using your values the rage would go from 4 vs 19 to 24 vs 19 or 40 vs 19)

Btw: You can't not take rage per second into account, rage starved scenario or not, comparing 2 procs from 2 different weapons on 1 vs 1 case is pointless for any practical consideration.

Edited by Roadblock
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I'm getting a bit of a headache when reading all of this so please: start accounting for damage being mitigated by armor (& resistances) when doing your threat and rage calculations.

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9 hours ago, Nocturn said:

They actually have TF in the guild but are not used by the MT's. Used by the dps i believe.

 

If this is true then there are definitely some serious errors in the math on that server. The TF proc has bonus threat and the chaining NR debuff does 0 damage but applies effectively a sunder armor worth of threat on every mob it hits. On a properly working server TF will always be a terrible weapon for DPS because of the bonus threat.

On top of this, they nerfed proc rates on weapons that were pre lvl 70 in TBC specifically because the first few guilds to clear SSC were still using TF on their main tanks. It sounds to me like the TF proc is not working properly at all on kronos.

 

Edit: Just to clarify, I'm not disagreeing on IF, this is very interesting stuff in this thread. @Walgrave you should compare TF and IF to something else like say... scarlet kris (I believe this was a popular tanking weapon in retail?) or bloodlords defender as a way to validate your methods. I'm pretty sure we can all agree that TF should be way above these weapons for threat so it would be nice to see that result from your calculations. If they don't end up way below TF then there is probably an error somewhere.

Edited by Armilus
Stuff n things
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nevermind im stupid, didnt notice inspiration on the tank

though i think that armor on the tank in walgrave's post is just absurd

Edited by Aquane
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Here is your problem, btw, OP:
https://vanilla-twinhead.twinstar.cz/?issue=718

Kronos implemented a bunch of custom ppms with not so much as a single source. Ironfoe is broken on Kronos because it has a 10% proc rate.

In reality the proc was much worse, more like 3% or 0.675 ppm:
http://web.archive.org/web/20070315172720/http://wow.allakhazam.com/item.html?witem=11684

Feenix did the same thing with Vis'kag's proc, which is why rogues were using it over CTS and even T2.5 weapons on those servers. Cautionary tales.

Edited by yoens
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Looks like it used to have 3 hits on procc in early 2005 :) (image behind link)

any idea when it was changed? Also noticed a few druid/priest won roll or people saying shaman possible top raid dps with ironfoe ... good times!

Quote

Posted by Ailithir <Immortals> on 2005-02-15 02:03:36
Here it is..

Because i saw a couple requests for it.. heres a shot of the Ironfoe.

Ironfoe.jpg

Arthas Server :
IMMORTALS!! represent!

~Ailithir
60 paladin
IMMORTALS
Arthas

E: modified link so it shows the webarchive

Edited by Jules
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On 10/25/2016 at 0:09 PM, mrmr said:

If those "Lava Runs" target is the Emperor...I don't see how's possible do a run in 15minutes....when you need to clear the whole room where he stands...

OP is just bullshitting and trying to create panic. 4 runs per hour.. never in your life. Show me proof of anyone even doing 2 per hour then show me that group farming ironfoe. Never happened will never happen. Good luck finding a group to farm BRD for 3 weeks straight. Then you will die in torch room because of some clown and group will break up. Mages and warlocks that you need for torch room dont just farm brd. I've played on 3 vanilla servers all as warrior and it is completely impossible to "farm" emp, especially once people start getting their hoj's.

DPS warrior itemization is on a complete different path than other classes. Lionheart, titanic, savage chain, ironfoe, felstriker... all of it is preraid. It must be nice to waltz into MC and have an 8 piece set plus trinkets necks and weapons waiting for your spec.

 

OP should be shamed in public for intentionally ignoring that our bis gloves are a level 44 boe world drop. GET OUT OF HERE. OUT OUT OUT.

OPs next post should be how to nerf feral druid gear.

 

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6 hours ago, Ssaya said:

OPs next post should be how to nerf feral druid gear.

Don't even joke about it, it's hard enough as it is...

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I enjoyed reading through this resurrected old post hehe

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