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45 posts in this topic

Then we'd need a double downvote for nonsense like this. ^
This is why votes/ratings are pointless on forums.

Edited by Drain
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I wouldn't say that's much good because it's full of bad item suggestions. He seems to list out every possible item you can loot in dungeons, not just the ones you should want to seek out as a 60. Obviously if an item is better than what you have, you'd pick it up anyway, you don't need it on a list. Lists should contain the top end items to go after. He also skimps out on PVP, which isn't too bright for Classic, as it contains better items on most slots than dungeons. Since you can literally farm in AV if you don't want to fight, it's stupid to skip this reputation (BIS purple ring and 2x BIS weapons if you're dagger spec). You might still opt to get some ranks though or rep items from other BGs.
Also if ZG is out: http://db.vanillagaming.org/?search=batskin

Btw I forgot to add that sword spec farms better outside raids than daggers without needing any respecs. There's more "nonsense" for you.

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Absolutely. PVP is only necessary for a few slots. They can easily be sacrificed. Once ZG opens btw, it brings with it more options. There's an easy to do quest that has a top end belt on it. You can PUG for this belt. Only while ZG is unobtainable, is the AB belt ideal. The 1 thing no raider should skip though is AV, for the ring if nothing else. I'd recommend R7 too though, for the boots, which you can get while working the AV rep. If you're not already there by the time you get exalted, it can't be far off. You can literally farm in AV to get these, without even needing to fight players, so there's not much excuse to skip them. My Nost Rogue farmed all day in AV, basically never fighting players unless forced to over thorium veins. But most of his time was spent farming the same 4 gnolls over and over, as they respawn quickly.

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@Soyoen I know you say Humans are the superior class for Alliance for PvE. However, in PvP, dwarves are the best class because of Stoneform (blind, bleeds, slowing posions, etc). Humans don't become the superior PvP class until 3.0.2 (I think is the correct number) when Perception is dropped and and they gain Every Man for Himself.

 

Long story short, if I am picking dwarf to have the upper hand in PvP will I be severely hindered in PvE?

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Just use Evis or bank a few ticks then refresh it. There's bigger things to be concerned about than a few seconds of slice duration. Your perfect rotation doesn't mean much if you stand in the fire and die vs magmadar. You're constantly pulled out of a rotation by boss CCs or AOEs, so you're not sticking to a perfect rotation whether you like it or not. SS does mean you need to pay more attention than BS though, since points build up faster. When I raided on Nost on my Rogue, I ran daggers so I could be lazy. Dagger builds up points much slower, so it's pretty damn easy to maximize a rotation. But the main reason I ran it is because with 5 60s, I didn't need to use my Rogue to farm. I only used the guy to farm thorium veins when he wasn't raiding. I also liked using ambush mid fight after using vanish to wipe threat. But the ambush crits were never impressive vs bosses. It just means that 1 backstab did more damage than the 100 others.

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10 hours ago, Thrixsulpax said:

@SoyoenI know you say Humans are the superior class for Alliance for PvE. However, in PvP, dwarves are the best class because of Stoneform (blind, bleeds, slowing posions, etc). Humans don't become the superior PvP class until 3.0.2 (I think is the correct number) when Perception is dropped and and they gain Every Man for Himself.

 

Long story short, if I am picking dwarf to have the upper hand in PvP will I be severely hindered in PvE?

No you wont be "severely hindered" dpswise but you will have a much harder time to keep up with the Human rogues in a semi-hardcore>hardcore environment. Basicly you can't sinister strike clip to many sword procs halfways through the main hand attack timer or you'll lose out on potential DPS that would make up the difference against the Human rogues who can afford to just attach an autoclicker to their sinister strike button (this behaivour is especially damaging for Horde rogue dps) :D 

If you're playing in a hardcore guild you will often need to take more "calculated" risks in order to gain advantages whilst bitchslapping any fury warrior (or bribe them with edgemaster's) who wishes to get their hands on Maladath during early content - or you could clc it to yourself I suppose ^_^

 

On 2016-09-25 at 1:19 AM, Chickengrease said:

Hey, @Soyoen would you mind giving your opinion on these two specs from a leveling perspective, or do you have a better one? 

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#fGxboxZG0Ez0Vzxfo

http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#fheboxZGoVbbVzxfo

I like them both and the question comes down to Riposte versus handling the hostile environment (wPvp). I want an efficient spec but to still be able to enjoy the facets of a PvP server, so I'm leaning towards the second one. Also, these specs seem to promote dual swords, IOW no backstab. The whole backstab strafing play style don't sound too appealing for me, is it that much faster?

I mained shaman/paladin up until mid-Cata where I quit retail so my experience with rogues is limited. Sure, the first rogue I actually levelled all the way was in Cata retail with full heirlooms, as well as some 3.3.5 PVP on the private server scene, but that doesn't count for shit. So I want to do it for real this time and main rogue here on CF. 

Thanks, appreciate the guide! 

I think I'd use something like the following IF I had your approach: http://db.vanillagaming.org/?talent#f0ebRZG0EdrVzxbob, potentially exchanging improved kick for more points into MOD. Honestly it'd depend on how you decide to level, if you do all dungeon quests and rerun dungeons for items and you get a decent crit chance then go ahead and pickup lethality, otherwise just redistribute those points somewhere else.

The backstab stafing style is superb from level 22/24 (the moment you can acquire 3/3 imp backstab and 5/5 precision (+2/2 remorseless)) and peaks with the dagger from the first toxic boss in gnomeregan & barman's shanker from BRD, albeit at that point swords should have started to work out better. Being open to respecs during the leveling phase I'd probably respec around level ~40 to a more sword oriented build if I had appropriate dungeon quest rewards. I wouldn't exclusively use daggers between 20-30 if I had cruel barb for instance (edit: but I would use the Noam dagger at all normal/low armored NPCs between 30-40 if I picked it up).

 

Best of regards

Soyo

Edited by Soyoen
in orange
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Another thing i'm wondering is the rotation, should you always wait that the SnD has like 1 sec left and then refresh it in order to stack some energy for the sinister strikes or should you always refresh it right away even if the SnD would have like <7 left still?

This is the time where you either slow down your pacing (deep breaths, watch them flowers): check your surroundings and plan for the upcoming 30s of the fight whilst recovering energy (in terms of movement, positioning and events) OR UP YOUR PACING (main hand swing timer, obey me!>:(): Squeeze in that extra 4/5cp eviscerate, use thistle tea for a quick 3cp snd or pray for ruthlessness combo point proc > relentless proc so you get time to build up to a 3cp SND.

You will always get the energy back from a 5/5 SND stack but if you are reseting a rotation (usually with a 3/4cp stack) then you'll most likely need the extra reggen time due to a 40/20% chance of not getting the energy cost of SND. In a perfect world you'd get 5/10/15/20/25 energy depending on combo points but you know, we need some RNG in our lives ;)

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Question:

In your dagger rotation you say 5 SnD.

Does this mean I will never do evis?

That's what I got from it but just want confirmation that the only thing I should be using is SnD. 
Seems a bit odd to me but math dont lie and according to yourself you've done the math :)

Also, thanks for this guide. Very nice for us rogue first-timers!

Edited by RandomUser
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Ima ask a thing here since I don't want to start a thread for 1 question, how will windfury work here because I saw today old forums talking how it worked back then http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1319549-Out-of-curiosity-how-did-rogues-perform-best-in-vanilla-and-TBC  " - rogues were the best "buff leechs": rogues didn't bring any raid buff/boss debuff on the table, they just did a lot of damage; on the other side, they got advantage from basically every buff possble and they were scaling extremely well with the old Windfury Totem (only horde in Vanilla, became available to everyone in TBC), which was a flat chance to get extra attacks and could proc from old combat sword specialization and also from itself (and that attacks could proc sword spec aswell). That was extremely powerful, now it's become the raid wide aura that grants attack speed. " Let me summon the master of these questions @Darkrasp so I can get a good answer :)

Edit1: I found pretty informative post of retail guy about old naxx and why it was hard, he breaks info on bosses so let me share it with you guys I believe it may be informative https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/2u8i26/how_hard_was_vanilla_naxx/ 

A part of the comment of this dude -  Gauntlet before Heigan 10/10.  

It took 30 fucking minutes , it was hard , you could wipe , made heigan 15 times harder since you had 3-4 tries max per night. And most people required tries to learn the dancing part of the encounter.

Loatheb 6 hours a day farming ghost mushrooms in scarlet monastery graveyard / 10

Pretty much that , it required a strict rotation of shadowpots/bandages/healthstones. Farming Shadowpots took literally 6hours. Also healers had 1 heal per minute, had to use it on the maintank , so rotations were introduced ( there was an addon later on that showed who already used his heal , but it wwasnt very relevant when it showed up ). So 40 people had not to screw up their consumables rotation for 6mins , also healers couldnt screw up , also tank had to get good rng on avoidance and ON TOP OF THAT , it was a very tight DPS race. Which meant world buffs helped alot. So you really had 1 good try per night or 3 days depending on zul'gurub/onyxia buffs. The stars had to align to kill him.

 

EDIT2: 

Our experience with gothik was a lot different than yours. We didn't really have problems with CC breaks though, as we'd stick CoE on long-duration CC targets and that seemed to affect their success considerably.

You're missing the one thing that made all of this genuinely difficult: Latency was 4-8 times worse for many players then compared to the average broadband user now. That tightened the difficulty on thaddius, heighan, and KT. We had a substantial number of AU players going into naxx--even with a 4 point rotation on thaddius, they often didn't get there in time.

 

These points were major for me I felt it is good to share them here, I hope we can gain something from this.

Edited by dailybs
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Would you mind expanding on your swingtimers section because I quite didn't get it. How do you know that "a proc will occur" and how do you know a WF proc will occur ? I understand the part about the special attacks and swing timers ; the other part seems just too RNG dependant, there is not much you can do about it.

Also what do you think of always opening SND 1 ? I'm horde and where I play basically everyone does that. You instant get the extra AS for sword procs/wf procs/crus procs/etc.

Drain, what do you mean the sword procs doesn't counter towards the hit cap ?

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11 hours ago, Oxyda said:

How do you know that "a proc will occur" and how do you know a WF proc will occur ?

...the other part seems just too RNG dependant, there is not much you can do about it.

I reckon you'll face mainly two scenarios when raiding regarding this matter:

  1. When you have excess energy and need to dump it "asap" and hence will do a dump at the first/2nd swing timer reset.
  2. When you can afford to wait one/two timers for a WF proc trigger.

 

1: 100 energy

First thing to look out for is how long left there is on your mainhand swingtimer, second thing is how long time left until energy will be replenished.

  • If energy > swingtimer then dump asap so IF a proc of any kind occurs then you dont lose more than you need to.
  • If swingtimer > energy then dump right after the swingtimer is reseting.

2: 40 energy

Look out for main hand swing timer and be prepared to react if windfury does proc. It's important not to overdo this so issues in the rotation arises, however that should be a rare occurance with a standard rotation.

 

All in all you're working to reduce the probability of a proc occuring mid/late in your main hand swing timer which reduces the DPS gain from said proc, whilst boosting your special abilities if you do have access to say windfury.

11 hours ago, Oxyda said:

what do you think of always opening SND 1 ?

Depends on fight duration. 2 extra GCDs for 9 extra sec of SND may be worth it efficiency wise (higher chance for relentless to proc>more dps), what you lose it basicly 2gcds (~2s of no s'n'd).

Fight starts

1gcd 1gcd (snd) : 2s, ~0,6s left til the MH swing. +5 energy on average over time | 0,6s loss on MH (there's OH loss as well obv)

1gcd 1gcd 1gcd 1gcd (snd) : 4s, ~1,2s left til MH swing. +15 energy on average over time | 1,2 loss on MH if activated right away.

 

Which could bring me to the next point that SND should be activated right before the next cycle on the MH/OHtimer but I mean this is becoming to long already :)

 

 

Regards

Soyoen

Edited by Soyoen
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Overall I like the guide, however I noticed a few issues on the spreadsheet:

 

- Deathdealer head stats are wrong (missing 1 hit)

- Fist crit isn't properly accounted for in the SS / Evis section

- Fist windfury procs aren't properly accounted for - essentially it pretends that windfury procs 0 times if you have a fist weapon.

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On 2017-04-26 at 7:11 PM, pounce said:

Overall I like the guide, however I noticed a few issues on the spreadsheet:

 

- Deathdealer head stats are wrong (missing 1 hit)

- Fist crit isn't properly accounted for in the SS / Evis section

- Fist windfury procs aren't properly accounted for - essentially it pretends that windfury procs 0 times if you have a fist weapon.

I just wanted to respond that this has been noted. I currently have a tad bit going on but I'm slowly working towards a new version where these things are sorted as well as the underlying energy calculations being revamped (which is what's causing me most headache whenever I work on it). Thank you for reporting these errors :)

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On 8/10/2016 at 7:10 AM, Soyoen said:

Certainly.

1) Right click on any of the tabs, click "Unhide..."

At this point a window appears with slots such as Shoulder, Back, Chest... etc

2) Unhide the one you wish to add an item for, I'll use boots in this example.

3) Insert a row anywhere below the first row (Bloodfang) and above the last row (Swiftwalker), this is the easy way to do it so you don't need to reselect the ranges for both Boots and Bootsstats.

4) Type in the new item accordingly and you should be done :)

@Soyoen i seem to be having trouble performing this. Whenever I highlight a row or column and click unhide, no windows appear with slots for editing. If i right click a drop-down arrow or a singular tab, there is no unhide command to click. Can you explain a bit more in detail please?

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On 2017-07-07 at 4:53 PM, darknes said:

@Soyoen i seem to be having trouble performing this. Whenever I highlight a row or column and click unhide, no windows appear with slots for editing. If i right click a drop-down arrow or a singular tab, there is no unhide command to click. Can you explain a bit more in detail please?

This is how I do it from my end :)

Regards

Soyo

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Anyone have an idea of what Ironfoe proc chance is in spreadsheet? 5.4%?

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RogueDPS Reborn: Penta digits download update

Bad eyesight: Deathdealer head stats & Ironfoe proc chance corrected.

Charting trip: Stats comparison values (Pareto) & Armor reduction charts added.

CLUCK! CLUCK! CLUCK!: Gnomish Battle Chicken AS buff added.

Cycling: Fixed display error on cycles (midrange showing correct values now).

Divide & Conquer: Combat tables split up (example: eviscerate now has a combat table of its own) & crit/hit dependency in relation to crit cap has been corrected.

Fists of Fury: Fist Crit and Fistfury is now accounted for special attacks.

How hard could it be...?: Racials corrected.

In a hurry: Blade Flurry talent will now will better represented towards single target DPS.

LFI: Decent amount of items and setbonus added or fixed in the spreadsheet (e.g. Nightslayer, Shadowcraft, Stormshroud, Veiled Shadows, all PVP items & Renataki amongst others).

Shilling: Fixed a minor double input coming from energycycle resulting in bias towards non-daggers in regards to eviscerate damage.

Stonehunter: Elemental sharpening & dense sharpening added as weapon buff options (WF will no longer be autoselected for Horde).

The sheet wrecker: The 8 set piece bonus for Bloodscythe will no longer completely destroy the sheet whilst being correct.

Typefixer: Fixed a typo in the Weapon Skill MH formula.

U and I: Redesign of selection UI to provide better insight when choosing talents/gear and likewise.

yAR: Armor reduction and armor values has had seen features added, bug fixes and in general more focus towards it.

Your fate is sealed: Seal Fate is now fully working due to a decent rewrite in Energycycle.

What? They've always been there!: Vigor & Cold Blood added (Vigor will only shows improvement at shorter fight durations).

Additional: There has been a lots of improvements, bugfixes and likewise made from time to time that I havn't kept track off.

 

Regards

Soyoen

Edited by Soyoen
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Hello.

Thank you for spreadsheet and sorru for my english.

I dont understand one moment. In all guides there is information that you need 8% hit on the boss level 63. Why if i dont take Precision 5/5 and dont have any +hit from from items my miss on boss 63lvl 5.4%?

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