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AsCE

Remove buffs when entering raid instance

32 posts in this topic

I just spent around 70 minutes writing a lengthy, interesting masterpiece... but for some reason i got logged out before i pressed Submit Topic and everything was lost... so here is the "i should have gone to sleep hours ago and i cba to rewrite everything"-version.

A lot of people seem to want Crestfall raiding to be more of a challenge than it has been on other private servers, and there is a lot of suggestions floating around on how to achieve that. 

My suggestion is to remove all buffs applied to a character when entering a raid instance. This would mean no "40x warlock alts for soulstones"-advantage, no DM buffs, no DMF buffs, no Songflower buffs, no Ony/Nef head buffs, no Rend buffs and no silithus sand buffs. A rough estimate from the top of my head would be -20% overall raid dps in pre-naxx content... perhaps even more - probably around 30% for melee dps... Hell only the DM buff gives 200 AP, which during MC/BWL content is more than 25% of a rogues total unbuffed AP.

It is (probably) a lot less work to implement than buffing and re-balancing raid bosses, and it is more fair to "non-hardcore" guilds who are not stomping all vanilla raid content on their first raid night since the content wont be tuned around raids having world buffs.

It also gives the game a more vanilla feeling, since there were no guilds in retail vanilla who had 40 fully worldbuffed players for their raids in MC, BWL or AQ40... probably not even in Naxx.

Personally i would prefer both removing world buffs and re-balancing bosses to be harder... since then top guilds would probably have to spent more than 2 raid nights to clear MC+BWL+AQ40+Naxx.

Edited by AsCE
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You've posted almost the same thing word for word on other forum projects as well.   Can't trick me with the "up all night typing".

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2 hours ago, Undertanker said:

You've posted almost the same thing word for word on other forum projects as well.   Can't trick me with the "up all night typing".

I've posted it on the Kronos forums (https://forum.twinstar.cz/showthread.php/116159-Nerf-pre-raid-buffing), but i guess that is the only other forum that matters these days.

Quote

Implement so that any buffs already applied to a character gets removed when entering a raid dungeon. 

This will make raiding more interesting since guilds cant get all the world buffs.

World buffing and entire raid is one of the things that remove the "vanilla feeling".

The definition of "word for word" really took a big hit. I spent 20 seconds on the Kronos post when i made it 2 weeks ago... wanted to put a little more effort into the Crestfall post since this server has way more hope than K2 does.

Now can we get back on topic please?

Edited by AsCE
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You'll most likely get the same types of responses.

You don't have to world buff yourself.

What does it matter what another guild does.  

Nobody is making you raid with 40.  Test yourself with 30 and also get more loot per person attending.

 

I know you are a strong advocate of this, but seems a later patch of this game would meet your request already.  Vanilla is 75% preparation for raid.  Those who have more time to prepare shouldn't be held down by those who do not.   If it is purely about challenge, again, limit your own raids and you have what you are looking for.

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Worldbuffs are fine, as long as they are a requirement to kill the content. If not, they are just an optional easymode with the same rewards. How anyone can advocate that is completely beyond my understanding.

 

13 minutes ago, Undertanker said:

If it is purely about challenge, again, limit your own raids and you have what you are looking for.

Great argument. In fact, it's so great I'd like to extend its use and advocate for optional x100 exp and gold rates, and tier 3 in the mailbox upon hitting 60. You can always delete it if you want a challenge.

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40 minutes ago, Undertanker said:

You'll most likely get the same types of responses.

You don't have to world buff yourself.

What does it matter what another guild does.  

Nobody is making you raid with 40.  Test yourself with 30 and also get more loot per person attending.

 

I know you are a strong advocate of this, but seems a later patch of this game would meet your request already.  Vanilla is 75% preparation for raid.  Those who have more time to prepare shouldn't be held down by those who do not.   If it is purely about challenge, again, limit your own raids and you have what you are looking for.

Vanilla is 75% about preparing for raid these days, it was not in retail.

I have plenty of time to "prepare for raids", farm herbs for 30-40 minutes per day and im set with consumables. Log in to get world buffs 40 minutes before raid and im done. Before i quit K2 i played in Praise the Sun, the top horde guild, and the time it took me to prepare for raids would even out to around 30 minutes per day (3.5 hours per week). It's nothing to brag about... and all it does is trivialize content.

If you read through the entire post i made, i give you an argument for why the problem isnt just solved by me not getting buffs. I'll do you a favour and put it in bold text in this post:

A lot of people seem to want Crestfall raiding to be more of a challenge than it has been on other private servers [...] It is (probably) a lot less work to implement than buffing and re-balancing raid bosses, and it is more fair to "non-hardcore" guilds who are not stomping all vanilla raid content on their first raid night since the content wont be tuned around raids having world buffs.

In other words, Crestfall wants to make bosses harder and instead of making the bosses more difficult for everyone (even the poor guilds that cant kill them already). We can make it more difficult only for the players who complain that its too easy - aka the players who logs on 40 minutes early just to teleport or get summoned around the world to gather a bunch of buffs.

This change would only affect a small portion of the player base, and all of those players are probably good enough to kill all the bosses anyway. The only difference would be that the top players would not be expected to run around gathering buffs all over Azeroth while also having their raids become more interesting.

Edit: I made you a cool chart in paint to easier explain what i mean. http://imgur.com/a/uZyHo

Edited by AsCE
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Even as someone who gathers all world buffs, it's a change I would strongly support. My only fear would be;

Would it be so much of a change that it would completely break the "blizzlike" label and end up with the server having next to no population? Look at the shit the devs took when they said they wanted to buff bosses.

Personally, I think "blizzlike" is a dumb idea, since we're not recreating the exact patch environment for each tier of progression (namely with talents) anyway, why not aim for "Blizzlike Plus".

I think there's a chance that it's something many hardcore players would actually be interested in. Server first races and clear time races would no longer be about how many buffs you were able to keep for the whole instance, or how streamlined your alt summoning circle is, but instead it would all come down to how well your guild could perform during the raid itself.

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@AsCE I think the devs have expressed interest in limiting the amount of people you can buff with one DM-run to only 5 people so you can't just clear it with 5 and buff 40 people, forcing the ones who wish to roll with full DM buffs to put in more effort to clear the instance for every individual group. Which, to my opinion, is a way better middle ground than just removing world buffs completely. 

From what I've gathered, the devs are not going to buff the bosses by any considerable amount, more like just having the actual right values from retail instead of the private server values that usually are lacking because of lack of effort and research. 

And if there are guilds who cannot clear the content with/without wbuffs, which is and should be possible (maybe not harder parts of Naxx (considering 0.1% of playerbase saw it in vanilla) or AQ); wouldn't that only mean there is something to strive towards and improve upon? IMO you shouldn't be 'entitled' to clear the bosses just because you managed to gather 40 people together (what it seems like it is on Kronos at least). If a guild is disbanded (assuming they take time to do multiple tries and attempt to improve themselves) by not being able to clear 12 year old content, with all the information available, maybe they might be playing the wrong game.

36 minutes ago, Attero said:

Great argument. In fact, it's so great I'd like to extend its use and advocate for optional x100 exp and gold rates, and tier 3 in the mailbox upon hitting 60. You can always delete it if you want a challenge.

Using a strawman to counter an argument and on top of it criticizing the original argument is just poor form. I'd advise to put more thought in before posting.

Edited by Ciar
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I'm having visions of 'Ok everyone buff up' and 'Ok let's go summon.'

There's a difference between making things harder and making them a pita.

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1 hour ago, Undertanker said:

You'll most likely get the same types of responses.

You don't have to world buff yourself.

What does it matter what another guild does.  

Nobody is making you raid with 40.  Test yourself with 30 and also get more loot per person attending.

Cmon, not this argument. This is like saying "If you dont like flying then dont fly". Or "If you dont like the ICC buff then turn it off". Or "If you dont like LFR then dont use it". Thats not the point at all. These are the reasons many people feel like wow has gone down the shitter and the reason many look to private servers, and telling people they can just not use the features at hand is rather silly, a "retail-argument" if you will. :P

Back to topic: Im also against removing world buffs in raids. I think they contribute a lot to the preperation and is a big social thing as well, instead of just showing up, you will communicate about buffs and help getting stuff etc. And its also a reason to do keep doing previous tier raids

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11 minutes ago, Elicas said:

Even as someone who gathers all world buffs, it's a change I would strongly support. My only fear would be;

Would it be so much of a change that it would completely break the "blizzlike" label and end up with the server having next to no population? Look at the shit the devs took when they said they wanted to buff bosses.

Personally, I think "blizzlike" is a dumb idea, since we're not recreating the exact patch environment for each tier of progression (namely with talents) anyway, why not aim for "Blizzlike Plus".

I think there's a chance that it's something many hardcore players would actually be interested in. Server first races and clear time races would no longer be about how many buffs you were able to keep for the whole instance, or how streamlined your alt summoning circle is, but instead it would all come down to how well your guild could perform during the raid itself.

I agree :)

The thing i'm looking for is a vanilla server where i can experience the vanilla content in the same way i did in retail. And if that means having to change things to make stuff harder then im fine with that.

8 minutes ago, Ciar said:

And if there are guilds who cannot clear the content with/without wbuffs, which is and should be possible (maybe not harder parts of Naxx (considering 0.1% of playerbase saw it in vanilla) or AQ); wouldn't that only mean there is something to strive towards and improve upon? IMO you shouldn't be 'entitled' to clear the bosses just because you managed to gather 40 people together (what it seems like it is on Kronos at least). If a guild is disbanded (assuming they take time to do multiple tries and attempt to improve themselves) by not being able to clear 12 year old content, with all the information available, maybe they might be playing the wrong game.

Don't get me wrong, i'm not saying that content should be made easier so that anyone can clear anything. I just want the content to be harder for players (like me) who already got the know-how and skills to kill all the bosses - without making stuff harder for the people who dont. A direct buff to bosses will make things harder for everyone, not just for the "hardcore" players. But a nerf to the trivial and boring task of gathering world buffs would make content harder only for the "hardcore" players without making things even harder than they already are for others.

1 minute ago, DeeMarie said:

I'm having visions of 'Ok everyone buff up' and 'Ok let's go summon.'

There's a difference between making things harder and making them a pita.

I dont know if you understand what i am saying... "buffing up" wont get changed by players not being able to carry world buffs with them into raids. Even with or without world buffs guilds will have to gather and have their players cast their buff spells.

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23 minutes ago, Sakritan said:

Back to topic: Im also against removing world buffs in raids. I think they contribute a lot to the preperation and is a big social thing as well, instead of just showing up, you will communicate about buffs and help getting stuff etc. And its also a reason to do keep doing previous tier raids

I wholeheartedly understand that its a fun social thing, "raid-logging" is something that is really boring and getting that extra time to coordinate for world buffs does give some extra social interaction with your guild. However i do feel that making raids harder by reducing your raids dps by roughly 20-30% might make the actual raid so much more interesting that it would outweigh that extra social thing. Atleast for me :)

After playing on different vanilla servers for the last 6 years i've noticed that most guilds (even during naxx content) still do all the lower tier raids. Wether it be to gear up alts, get an Ony head for buffing or for a chance at a Legendary drop. And with world buffs doing all lower tier raids is very possible in one raid night.

On Warsong i was in a guild called <Argent Crusade> (top guild on the server at that time). We did AQ40+Ony on wednesday and BWL+MC with optional 20-mans on sunday... so getting the lower tier raids isnt really a hassle to do when world buffs make content so easy. Even on K2 atm (Only MC, BWL and Onyxia are released) some guilds clear 40-man BWL and 20-man MC+Ony in less than one raid night (4.5 hours).

Edited by AsCE
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22 minutes ago, AsCE said:

I wholeheartedly understand that its a fun social thing, "raid-logging" is something that is really boring and getting that extra time to coordinate for world buffs does give some extra social interaction with your guild. However i do feel that making raids harder by reducing your raids dps by roughly 20-30% might make the actual raid so much more interesting that it would outweigh that extra social thing. Atleast for me :)

After playing on different vanilla servers for the last 6 years i've noticed that most guilds (even during naxx content) still do all the lower tier raids. Wether it be to gear up alts, get an Ony head for buffing or for a chance at a Legendary drop. And with world buffs doing all lower tier raids is very possible in one raid night.

On Warsong i was in a guild called <Argent Crusade> (top guild on the server at that time). We did AQ40+Ony on wednesday and BWL+MC with optional 20-mans on sunday... so getting the lower tier raids isnt really a hassle to do when world buffs make content so easy. Even on K2 atm (Only MC, BWL and Onyxia are released) some guilds clear 40-man BWL and 20-man MC+Ony in less than one raid night (4.5 hours).

You got some valid points for sure. But lets remember two things. First, Crestfall is not Peenix. Crestfall will (hopefully) have near perfect scripting in their raids. That alone will make the content alot harder. Now the second part here is even more interesting. Crestfall have plans to make small tweaks to their raids, not a flat HP buff, but small tweaks to AI, slightly changed timers etc, those things will make the content even harder, as well as break a few addons (yay! ;D).

So I really think the challenge argument is covered already.

Now. If you removed the buffs, wouldnt that lower the incentive for later tier guilds to run earlier raids?

"On Warsong i was in a guild called <Argent Crusade> (top guild on the server at that time). We did AQ40+Ony on wednesday and BWL+MC with optional 20-mans on sunday... so getting the lower tier raids isnt really a hassle to do when world buffs make content so easy. Even on K2 atm (Only MC, BWL and Onyxia are released) some guilds clear 40-man BWL and 20-man MC+Ony in less than one raid night (4.5 hours)."
-Haha, and tryhards say you cant bring odd specs to raid. You see how easily the raid content would be perfectly doable no matter :D (would just take abit longer, like it did retail)


It regarding your lost post. I feel you man, happened to me a few times as well, server issue. Hitting that Submit is always risky, better make a habit of copying your text beforehand!

Edited by Sakritan
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Not sure why I am being attacked here. Self imposed challenges and taking less people to a 40 man was apparently the worst things spoken here.

You want hard mode.  like I stated above, later content patch have what you are looking for.  I would recommend the progressive WotLk server or keep an eye out for a good the server.

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Removing World Buffs won't make encounters with retail values harder. It will reduce DPS, yes. All it does is make fights a few dozen seconds longer, for the enjoyment of nobody as the encounter mechanics themselves are simple and lacking danger or challenge. Tanks suddenly won't get 1 shot cuz they don't have World Buffs fighting bosses with retail values. At least not Pre-Naxx. (And perhaps Twins in AQ) All the benefit you get from World buffs in this case (like Kronos) is a faster clear, but the content difficulty itself is a joke regardless.

On Nost, full T2 tanks would get 1 shot suddenly on Brood with a 7k normal Mortal Strike hit followed by a blast wave or a melee swing, unless they were at 11-12k HP buffed or popped a CD preemptively, if not both. There was an element of danger when you did Brood/Chrom/Nef. This is because they did not use retail values for those encounters. The scripting on Nost wasn't perfect either, but they did make things fun by buffing content. (Without telling anybody, I'll add)

Emerald Dream us tanks used to theorize like crazy on mitigation gear for T2 content because everything just hit so much harder. Makes reliance on healing and tank mitigation gearing so much more important. Of course, when the tank is in defensive gear, you're also threat capped so the DPS is capped. Not to mention they also buffed HP of the boss making the dangerous fight last longer. (More chances of mistakes and dying). Scripting wasn't upto par, but what they did script was fun and challenging.

I have to ask, why do people think 100% perfect scripting will make fights harder than scripts that are 85% scripted? The way taunt worked was bugged on Feenix. Making wing buffet encounters a joke. However with taunt threat fixed. The wing buffet fights were still a joke. Yes, tanks had to generate proper threat for once, but it did not increase the difficulty of an encounter. Maybe @Darkrasp could give further examples of bugged encounters on private servers like he did of Ragnaros which was a fascinating post. (If you guys missed it, please do check out one of the dev posts)

Anyway this is getting long. In conclusion, buffing content is the only way to go. Either by stats changes or by altering timers or mechanics. I'd argue it should consist of a little bit of everything.

As for world buffs. @Darkrasp already said he'd like to go towards the direction of world buffing to be possible, just more difficult. (Like limited tribute buffs per clear or cooldown of a couple of hrs on Nefarian/Onyxia head in Orgrimmar/SW) I think that's great, to ensure those who wish to get them, would do so occasionally (say with DMF) to do a speedrun or server firsts. Personally, I dislike how it has become standard for semi-hardcore, even casual guilds to world buff to make content faster so they can clear more content in one evening. 

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Why is it bad to want to clear more content in 1 evening?  You have a lot of people in a guild to gear.  Nobody wants to schedule a raid every night, and have 4-hour raid nights on the regular.  Onxyia every 5 days, ZG and AQ 20 every 3-days, MC, BWL, AQ40 every 7 days.  That is a lot of content to clear if you are gearing a guild like we were on K-1.  I had over 102 raids on realm.players from June 10th to August 18th. I missed 1 Onxyia through my stay there as MT.

I agree with what you said about fights just get shorter, not really easier.

Also keep in mind w/o world buffs, tanks don't have to focus threat so much cause dps is lower. 

With wing buffet fights, the MT should never eat one in BWL, an OT should be off set more than 91° from MT, taunt eat the buffet and goes right back to MT.  If done correctly will always seem easy, but is a really hard thing to get the position down on the first drake without causing it to move on swaps.  The other two are LOL.

Edited by Undertanker
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1 hour ago, AsCE said:

I dont know if you understand what i am saying... "buffing up" wont get changed by players not being able to carry world buffs with them into raids. Even with or without world buffs guilds will have to gather and have their players cast their buff spells.

You're saying remove buffs when entering a raid instance. That means all player-given buffs, any consumes you ate or drank while in the instance or out.

As an example, most guilds will clear MC in one night (maybe not on CF!) then go do Ony to get her out of the way. If you potted before Raggy and didn't die, you'll need to repot for Ony. Ok not a big deal. Need to go out and summon a player? Sure but gl trying to get all your player buffs back and don't forget to drink another Mongoose. Want to go gate crash that incoming enemy raid outside BWL? You'll lose all your buffs. Kazzak spawns during MC and you want him dead, well you have to give up your flask when you re-enter the instance.

I'm not against making stuff harder. But I'm not against making players work that bit harder to improve their characters, and for some that means world buffs.

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I really like that ppl post new ideas to try to make the game "harder / more dif" w/o changing the vanilla feel.

But this idea just dosent cut it, it was a good attempt reallly i can see the pros to it!

 

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6 hours ago, AsCE said:

I just spent around 70 minutes writing a lengthy, interesting masterpiece... but for some reason i got logged out before i pressed Submit Topic and everything was lost...

Don't write "long masterpieces" without saving when you're surfing the Kronos boards.

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world buffs do have a huge impact to boosting a character. however, removing them from instances or zone in is actually 1 expac too soon as blizzard nerfed them into the ground and made them dissapear in TBC instances including DMF buff.

 

i think world buffs work fine, but limit the abusive parts of it if you want it to bring a challenge to content. (change songflower to 1 person can click on gameobject limit like it was intended to) or limit buff acquisition in DireMaul North to 5 players max.

those would be more ideal changes than a flat removal imo. worth a discussion though :)

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As many have already mentioned, this type of preparation was basically a core mechanic in later raids. Naxxramas was balanced around it. 

If I am being honest, this just looks like people don't want to HAVE to put the time into attaining these buffs, which I totally get; however, this may not be the xpak for you.

This change, for many of us, would change the principles of Vanilla WoW as a whole.

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Keep buffs, buff bosses, same shit :P
But yea, soulstone "bots" breaks the immersion and makes content easier, imo should be nerfed.

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Everyone is a game designer these days :)

I'd worry more about getting stuff working as close to retail as possible (especially core game mechanics) before worrying about custom changes.

The only changes the staff is looking to do up to this point is to counteract the unfortunate nerf early content gets indirectly from playing on an end of vanilla client (1.12 ranks / talents / gear etc). Edit: And some bugs or unintended effects of current crop of servers when they're identified.

I don't see this as an invitation to go down the fun-server route and start breaking core mechanics.

Just my opinion.

Edited by Roadblock
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3 hours ago, Walgrave said:

Removing World Buffs won't make encounters with retail values harder. It will reduce DPS, yes. All it does is make fights a few dozen seconds longer, for the enjoyment of nobody as the encounter mechanics themselves are simple and lacking danger or challenge. Tanks suddenly won't get 1 shot cuz they don't have World Buffs fighting bosses with retail values. At least not Pre-Naxx. (And perhaps Twins in AQ) All the benefit you get from World buffs in this case (like Kronos) is a faster clear, but the content difficulty itself is a joke regardless.

On Nost, full T2 tanks would get 1 shot suddenly on Brood with a 7k normal Mortal Strike hit followed by a blast wave or a melee swing, unless they were at 11-12k HP buffed or popped a CD preemptively, if not both. There was an element of danger when you did Brood/Chrom/Nef. This is because they did not use retail values for those encounters. The scripting on Nost wasn't perfect either, but they did make things fun by buffing content. (Without telling anybody, I'll add)

Emerald Dream us tanks used to theorize like crazy on mitigation gear for T2 content because everything just hit so much harder. Makes reliance on healing and tank mitigation gearing so much more important. Of course, when the tank is in defensive gear, you're also threat capped so the DPS is capped. Not to mention they also buffed HP of the boss making the dangerous fight last longer. (More chances of mistakes and dying). Scripting wasn't upto par, but what they did script was fun and challenging.

I have to ask, why do people think 100% perfect scripting will make fights harder than scripts that are 85% scripted? The way taunt worked was bugged on Feenix. Making wing buffet encounters a joke. However with taunt threat fixed. The wing buffet fights were still a joke. Yes, tanks had to generate proper threat for once, but it did not increase the difficulty of an encounter. Maybe @Darkrasp could give further examples of bugged encounters on private servers like he did of Ragnaros which was a fascinating post. (If you guys missed it, please do check out one of the dev posts)

Anyway this is getting long. In conclusion, buffing content is the only way to go. Either by stats changes or by altering timers or mechanics. I'd argue it should consist of a little bit of everything.

As for world buffs. @Darkrasp already said he'd like to go towards the direction of world buffing to be possible, just more difficult. (Like limited tribute buffs per clear or cooldown of a couple of hrs on Nefarian/Onyxia head in Orgrimmar/SW) I think that's great, to ensure those who wish to get them, would do so occasionally (say with DMF) to do a speedrun or server firsts. Personally, I dislike how it has become standard for semi-hardcore, even casual guilds to world buff to make content faster so they can clear more content in one evening. 

Shorter fights = easier fights: less focus on how to use mana, cooldowns like trinkets and death wish being up for a larger portion of the fight further boost the raid dps and of course a shorter fight means fewer mechanic cycles meaning less chance for fuck ups.

As you pointed out at the end tho - the major problem i have with world buffs is that it has become the norm for people to get them. Every guild gets every world buff for every raid... which reduces the time people spend online since they dont have to gather consumables to the same extent and guilds dont need to have multiple raid nights. Sadly tho i dont think any of the fixes you (or well, Darkrasp) suggested will prevent guilds from getting all the world buffs for every raid :P

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