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Armilus

guide
Prot Warrior guide by Armilus v2

41 posts in this topic
9 minutes ago, Adelinemdr said:

Also the tooltip for Heroic Strike explicitly says that it " and causes a high amount of threat", cleave has no such reference. Other abilities that has a tooltip like this such as mind blast does have an additional threat modifier.

Also another example is shield bash.   It has a base threat and the damage done, and additional threat when successful interrupt.  There is no "tool tip" information stating this.    Kenco's Threat Guide explains the values.

Edited by Undertanker
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5 minutes ago, Undertanker said:

Battle shout causes threat, but doesn't say it in it's tool tip ;)

Well most things do. When I read your post I interpreted it as you saying that cleave and hs have the same basic threat and that the only variance comes from the higher damage output from HS. For example mind blast gives twice the amount of threat it should based on the damage alone if I'm not mistaken and I believe that HS works in a similar way.

Edited by Adelinemdr
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Just now, Adelinemdr said:

the only variance comes from the higher damage output from HS

Base threat and threat from damage done are different.

Cleave should have a base threat of 100 threat + how ever much damage you do.    Heroic Strike should have a base threat of 175 + how ever much damage you do.

 

While you are informed to cleave on fights such as Val so you don't supersede the secondary tank, it still has a base threat value so you till can climb the meters more than just from your damage output.

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9 minutes ago, Undertanker said:

Base threat and threat from damage done are different.

Cleave should have a base threat of 100 threat + how ever much damage you do.    Heroic Strike should have a base threat of 175 + how ever much damage you do.

 

While you are informed to cleave on fights such as Val so you don't supersede the secondary tank, it still has a base threat value so you till can climb the meters more than just from your damage output.

Yes, I know this. The way I interpreted your post was that they had the same base threat value, hence the misunderstanding.

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The estimated values for the really low ranks seem either really high or really low to me. The problem is that damage doesn't scale linearly for DPS classes so I think tanking at level 14-30 will be super easy with the values in the higher estimates. (Although rage generation should suck at lower levels as well so maybe that will balance it and the higher estimates are fine?)

What about the ratio between bonus damage and bonus threat? The ration on R9 HS is 1:1.10, R8 is 1:1.05 but with your values in the last estimate the ration on R7 is back up to 1:1.09 and R6 is 1:1.2735. I think this ratios should be trending downward. When you look at the ratios they go kinda crazy around rank 2-3 with both of your estimates.

I have a feeling the actual values lie somewhere between the % difference extrapolations and the static difference. On that note, I often find that when you are missing too much data, if you can come up with 2 very loosely educated guesses (one that is definitely low and one that is definitely high) and just take the value in between the two you end up doing pretty good for yourself :P

Ultimately I think things under a certain level follow different rules, this is something we see in a lot of areas like healing spells. It seems like there is a relationship between the different levels between level 1-18(ish) then things go all screwy from 18(ish)-30(ish) and then there seems to be a sensible relation again.

Edited by Armilus
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Cleave and HS figures are definitely an educated guess. Especially with the lack of data/info for these 2 skills. Considering Kenco got a range of different bonus threat numbers on ktm/omen as well. Though my first guess with HS was pretty good comparing the bonus damage:threat ratios, apart from rank 1 and 2. I don't think it's game breaking to have early HS generating high threat, especially with accurate Battle Shout threat gen and proper rage formula, but that's my opinion.  

Like you said. It's a matter of balance, between the estimated damage from players vs. tank threat generation in low level content. Unless something feels completely off in beta, I don't think it is worth the dev time to hunt down the balancing of threat of these skills at low levels. 

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I haven't looked too heavily into the MaNGOS core threat manager, so I can't say for sure what other processing is done to the numbers, but straight out of their database the bonus threat values are pretty insane.  Most of them are just a linear backscale from the two "known" values. Their sunder armor bonus threat progression, for example, looks like this:

Rank 6 = 300
Rank 5 = 260
Rank 4 = 220
Rank 3 = 180
Rank 2 = 140
Rank 1 = 100

100 threat for a sunder at level 12?  They don't scale demo shout/battle shout/shield bash/etc. at all, either.. same threat at all ranks.

@Roadblock has been working away and came up with some slightly different, but similar numbers by scaling based on the level of the spell where it made sense.  I used to have a link to his WIP file but he's changed it out since then.

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Disarm, if using a debuff time as a threat multiplier, would improved disarm then give slightly more threat based on the increased % the talents give?

Not game breaking by any means either way seeing as spending into it is considered a sub-par protection spec.

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35 minutes ago, Undertanker said:

Disarm, if using a debuff time as a threat multiplier, would improved disarm then give slightly more threat based on the increased % the talents give?

Not game breaking by any means either way seeing as spending into it is considered a sub-par protection spec.

The answer about Disarm is literally "we don't know". There's a bunch of references from 2004-2006 saying it causes a high amount of threat but seems no one bothered to actually measure (probably because of the high-ish cooldown and somewhat limited application)

But if it follows a similar mechanic as other skills we have examples where we know talents are ignored for threat calculations (eg for the shouts).

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Do you think it may be worth adding Parry-haste into the guide? Seems kinda relevant.

For those that don't know, when a NPC or Player Parries an attack, it takes 40% off the current swing timer (possibly even resetting the timer), if the swing timer already has less than 20% left, the affect is ignored.

It's quite dangerous in Raids, since it can be used to increase boss DPS.

Edited by Pvt_8Ball
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On 11/4/2016 at 2:01 PM, Pvt_8Ball said:

Do you think it may be worth adding Parry-haste into the guide? Seems kinda relevant.

For those that don't know, when a NPC or Player Parries an attack, it takes 40% off the current swing timer (possibly even resetting the timer), if the swing timer already has less than 20% left, the affect is ignored.

It's quite dangerous in Raids, since it can be used to increase boss DPS.

Yes, it is one of the most important things for tanks to consider. I'll give a rough outline here of why and how this mechanic is just so important for tanks and raids to consider. Most of this is going to be done from memory, so any correction on the values is more than welcome.

 

To understand why parry-haste is such a huge issue, you need to understand how healing and mitigation works. If a boss does 4000 damage a hit every 2.5 seconds on a 10000 health tank and the healers are generating an average of 2000 health per second, the tank will never die until the healers run out of mana. As everyone knows, healing received is staggered because of cast times, tick times for heal over time spells, maintenance spells healer have to cast, so on and so forth. Generally this means that you could take 10000 healing in 0.20 seconds and then have 4 seconds go by where you take 2000 healing only to receive another high amount of healing. This is important to keep in mind for what I'm about to discuss, so remember it. Bosses in vanilla had around 13 to 15% chance to parry - I'll use 14%, maybe someone knows the exact value and can list it and plug in the exact value in the formulas I'll be listing to get a more accurate figure. Anyways this isn't meant to be accurate (accuracy would both be impossible and utterly pointless), so 14% chance to parry. We'll use a tank using auto-attacks/HS every 1.8 seconds and using an ability on the GCD every 1.5 seconds. Over 5 minutes, that's 366~ attacks or about 51 parries. Now I could try to model a proper repartition of each hit and when they land in regards to how much time left there is on the boss' swing timer... but fuck that. 20% of the time, or about 10 of your attacks that got parried, the boss won't parry-haste. The other 41 times, you do get a parry-haste which will shave off up to 1 second on what's remaining on the boss' swing timer.

 

At this point it's tempting to say that the boss will get 16 more swings in over a 5 minute period of time (40 seconds / 2.5 second per swing), so what's the big deal? Well like I said above, that's not how tanking actually works in this game and that's not what will happen in a practical scenario. So let's go back to our 4000 dmg every 2.5 seconds from above vs 2000 health per second. Boss swings > 6k health remaining > 2.5 seconds another swing 2k health remaining > boss gets a parry-haste > 1.5 seconds later you're dead if you haven't received any healing. Not too scary, right? After all, you won't go 4 seconds without ANY healing, at least normally. Now let's say boss swings > parry-haste > parry-haste. We're not even talking about 2 back-to-back parries, just getting the boss parrying twice in less than about 2 seconds. That's going 3 seconds for you to receive at least 2000 healing. Here's the thing: the difference between 4 and 3 seconds is night and day for a healer. It's the difference between being able to finish a freshly started GCD and getting off a medium heal vs finishing off a GCD and the tank dying before your medium heal lands. This happens frequently, especially on fights where there are a lot of targets to heal or when your dedicated healer(s) have a high chance of getting interrupted for whatever reason or you just don't have a lot of healers assigned to you. It might not kill you, but if the healer barely saves you after the parry haste or even a double parry haste, you're still going to be stuck at a very low health% and at a huge risk of dying to a sneeze. But this happens often enough. Let's make this scary: you refresh your Shield Block right as the boss swings, he gets a double parry haste and the last hit is a Crushing Blow. Now you're taking 14k dmg in a 3 second window which means that you need at least 4k healing just to survive. Or you're fighting a dragon that swings > parry haste > swing > breath > parry haste. Or there's an off-tank in the front or there's a pet or a melee DPS who gets in the frontal cone and procs a parry because he had to move or you moved the boss.

 

But this is just discussing the "why" and most people who have never looked in depth at parry-haste and tank deaths will be extremely dismissive of all this. Because the last paragraph wasn't very conctrete, let's go back to the 41 parry-haste per 5 minutes. That's a parry-haste every 7.3 seconds, on average. Let's say you're fighting Broodlord Lashlayer (if you're an experienced tank, by this point you've realized where I'm going with this) and both of the tanks have their backs against the wall and are fighting for threat. Two tanks means a parry roughly every 3.66 seconds. 5 parries every 18.3 means Broodlord "loses" 4 seconds of swinging time every 18.3 seconds, or that he goes from doing 7.32 attacks every 18.3 seconds to 8.92 attacks every 18.3 seconds or about 22% more auto attacks. But those are just numbers. Let's go back a bit: with 2 tanks fighting for threat, you're going to be landing a tiny bit more than 6 attacks for every melee swing the boss does (1.8 attack speed + 1.5 gcd spam). 6 attacks each with 14% chance to proc a parry and each parry has a chance to shave off up to a second on Broodlord's next swing. If you get unlucky, your two tanks could both cause the boss to parry right after the boss swings causing his next hit to basically come out 0.5 seconds after his previous one. That's bad. Oh ya, Broodlord Lashlayer also uses Mortal Strike, Cleave and Blast Wave. Pair up a parry-haste with a Cleave or a Mortal Strike or have bad timing and have the boss eat up the tank's Shield Block and have a parry-haste into a crushing blow plus using of his cooldowns. This is how tanks die.

 

Going to have a bit of fun here. Tank A is using a 1.3 speed dagger with Windfury Totem. He's using Revenge and Shield Slam on cooldown (but I'm not going to bother calculating overlapping GCDsgoing to assume Shield Slam > Revenge > 2x Sunder). So about 1.65 attacks per second when you factor in auto attacks + sunder + revenge + shield slam + windfury. Or 495 attacks per 5 minutes, 69 parries per 5 minutes or a parry every 4.35ish seconds or a parry haste every 3.48 seconds. Tank B is an Orc using Crul'shorukh (2.3), but not Windfury Totem. 330 attacks per 5 minutes, 45.5 parries per 5 minutes (factoring for Orc axe mastery), a parry every 6.59 seconds or a parry haste every 5.27 seconds. About 34% less parry-hastes over a period of time. That's a lot, right? Against bosses who hit hard or have extra abilities that they'll be using to supplement or burst down your tanks, a parry-haste represents a huge risk of dying. Every 3.48 seconds, the boss will end up having one of it's auto attacks come one second faster. Think of the difference one extra swing from the boss makes on a fight like Nef or Twin Emps. Every time a parry-haste lines up with those big bad abilities, you're very much risking a tank death and/or a wipe.

 

So attack from behind whenever possible, get +weapon skill gear (or a passive) and if threat isn't a huge concern and the boss can drop your tank, think about using a slower weapon. Note that Patchwerk and Brutallus are the only two relevant bosses with parry-hasting turned off that I can remember.

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9 hours ago, Zaroua said:

-snip-

So there is actually advantages to using a slower weapon as a tank in a raid setting. Good to know!

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On 30.10.2016 at 6:37 PM, Armilus said:

A few minutes later, MrTank is attacking a Goretusk and has 100 threat. MrMage then walks up and hits the Goretusk with a frostbolt gaining 129 threat. MrMage now has 129 threat while MrTank only has 100 threat but MrMage is standing 30 yards away so the Harvest Watcher continues to attack MrTank. 

MrMage then uses his wand and gains 2 more threat, the Harvest Watcher immediately changes targets to MrMage and starts to run towards him.

There is something wrong

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@Zaroua Good post about parry haste. However I do believe that base parry chance for bosses is around 5,6% (same as dodge/block/crit). Might need some digging up, but 13-15% seems way way too high. 

Do you have sources about PW not parryhasting please ?

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Patchwerk not triggering parry haste is a well known and established fact, same with Brutallus not being able to parry haste or crush.

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I didn't say it was a weird thing and needed to be proven, I just asked for a source, there was no need to belittle me. I was nice when I pointed out the base parry chance you mentionned was most likely wrong.

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